BMW M3 Sedan/Saloon Debut

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Who needs speakers anyway? Cars have engines and exhaust pipes for a reason.:rolleyes:

Quite right, there isn't any reason not to roll the windows down, turn the stereo off, and enjoy the music that the car makes. That, quite honestly, is something that no band or orchestra can match...
 
Silly 4 doors is never a bad thing.

I really like the wheels too.

It is when you can't see to the side because of a B-pillar in your face.
 
I guess I just don't see how people seriously cross compare the RS4 to the M3.

FWD turned AWD, beautiful engine, relatively Nose heavy.

RWD, beautiful engine, balanced beautifully.

I don't think if I had the money, that I'd really have any sort of a tough decision between the RS4 and the M3, nor the Merc, because while it's RWD, Mercedes aren't known for playing to the driver.

It's like people comparing Imprezas to Mustangs.

Just because they are at a similar price point and have about the same horsepower doesn't mean it's actually logical to assume people would seriously cross shop the two, as they are literally apples and oranges.

I see you, but those are just different approaches to setup. A Mustang and a WRX are very different. The WRX is a sedan rally oriented and simply a sporty version of an otherwise "normal car." The Mustang is a muscle, sports car designed to offer V8, rear drive performance to pavement burners. Both are completely different cars for different people in different classes.

The RS4, C63 and M3 are much closer. All three are offered as "regular" sedans designed to go against each other and be very well road mannered while offering great, sporty driving. The versions in question are simply those same sedans with a huge engine shoved under the hood with power bumped way up and suspension retuned among other things. The AWD is just a slightly different approach.

If the RS4 can't be compared to the Merc and BMW, can a 330xi be called a 3-series? Can an A4 quattro compete with a Mercedes? Or weight bias/engine placement. Does the 911 have no competitors?

You can't judge what cars belong where because of very tiny specific details. If that were the case, no car would have any competitor. Every car would be in it's own class. In this case, big V8+Sedan+sportyness=RS4 or C63 or M3.
 
They ruined the headlights by giving it the coupe's. And because it's a sedan, it has the uglier taillights, too...

Oh well, at least the M3's front fascia is growing on me.

Autoblog
In a move that should make family-oriented speed freaks burst into tears, BMW will only be offering a six-speed manual version at launch.
Those better be tears of joy.
 
Ah, but the sound won't get blocked out by one's leg. You either have to mount the speakers higher, or you have to put them near the floor.

I'm glad there's a 4-door M3. Have you ever tried to put a kid's seat in the back of a 2-door car? It's easier if you remove your head first.

They could've put a screen over them.
 
@Onikaze: People are comparing the RS4 to the M3 because Audi is directly marketing the RS4 against the M3.

And it's the first Audi in quite a long time that can *horror of horrors* actually handle... despite still being nose heavy.
 
I guess I just don't see how people seriously cross compare the RS4 to the M3.........Just because they are at a similar price point and have about the same horsepower doesn't mean it's actually logical to assume people would seriously cross shop the two, as they are literally apples and oranges.

RS4(A4) - M3(3-Series) - C63(C-class) All premium, mid-sized saloons/sedans (and variations of) direct competitors as base models - so why are the hardcore sporting versions not comparable?
 
I've been a fan of BMW's for years, because I love the way they feel on the road.

I would never consider an Audi unless they DRAMATICALLY improved on that.


Spiritually, Aesthetically, Realistically, an RS4 and an M3 only have Cylinder count/Displacement/HP roughly in common.

AWD 4 door with vaguely rally heritage, RWD 2 Door (and now 4 Door) with excellent driving heritage.

Cars like this aren't needs, you don't buy them because you have to do something with them, you buy them because you love them.

Cross shopping cars that are going to be used for a purpose, I can understand.

To extend the idea the other way.

Would you cross shop an Audi R8, 911 Turbo, Gallardo, and an F430?

Yeah, they "compete" with each other, but for most people there is going to be a clear favorite with these kinds of cars, and they will have their own reasons for that.

M3's make me feel funny things that RS4's just don't, the RS4 appeals to the "wow, neat gadgets" side of my head.

The yowl of the new M3 V-8 appeals to the "woo hoo hoo, muahahahahahaha" side of my head.
 
So your argument is that they aren't competitors because the buyers will have a clear preference? Than nothing competes with anything. Good to know.


Does anyone else know if the handling will be adversely effected by how high the center of gravity has risen since the roof is no longer carbon fiber like it was on the coupe?
 
Buyers tend to have a preference, yes. Brand loyalty is fierce in terms of the German camps. But the whole point of the RS4 exercise was to sway the type of buyer who'd usually go for BMW. Audi's previous hot cars have all been Bahn-Stormers, with secure but not necessarily agile handling. The RS4 (and now RS8) are a self-conscious attempt to change all that. Audi's got MB's number... now they're out for BMW blood.

According to those who would know, the RS4 does dramatically improve on what Audi has been putting out lately. It's still not perfect, it's still nose-heavy, and it'll still understeer when you hit the limit, but there's a caveat there...

A friend who's been doing the technical work for the local car of the year awards (experienced autocrosser, so he's the one who sets up the technical course, tabulates the times and sets up the acceleration tests) bemoans the fact that lately, all BMWs seem to do is... gasp... horror... understeer.

Maybe it's to do with tires. Maybe it's to do with the current racks. Whatever it is, New BMWs understeer when you push them hard.

They still exhibit some great stability and handling, though... an X5 will still corner faster than most people would expect (about 20 km/h faster than many lighter cars), but he was actually disappointed there wasn't more to it than that.

I think Tiff Needel noted the same thing on the M3. It does tend to understeer moderately at the limit... the only redeeming factor in that equation is the M3 is capable of power-oversteer to correct that. Various sources have placed the new M3 either just above or below the RS4 in terms of the drive (and sometimes below the last M3 CSL)... The RS4's wailing V8 and good handling hold it close... supposedly.

If we go by historical evidence, the M3 should be the better car. But we have to consider where things stand now.

Me? I'm just waiting for a chance to do a personal comparo. Of course, we don't have the new M3 yet, and with just one or two units in the country, Audi is understandably reluctant about lending out RS4s as press units... :lol:
 
Yeah, they "compete" with each other, but for most people there is going to be a clear favorite with these kinds of cars, and they will have their own reasons for that.

So if I'm understanding your argument, you say that the M3 and the RS4 aren't competitors because they appeal to different kinds of people with different ideas on how to approach the performance given?

Not quite right; By that mark you would say that the 911 and Corvette don't compete, by which they do, and they "hate" each other for it.

Sure, these cars do answer the same question quite differently, but they do come up with the same answer, and thats what makes them competitive. Problem is, the M3 will likely be better than the RS4 anyway...
 
Who needs speakers anyway? Cars have engines and exhaust pipes for a reason.:rolleyes:
Ever driven for more than an hour? Or been stuck in traffic? Or enjoy music?

The drone of an engine only goes so far towards entertainment, no matter how nicely tuned it is. This is especially the case if you're at a constant speed:

NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
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NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN
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NNNNNNNNNNNNNN

If I'm not competing in a race, then I'd like my music.
 
A M3 on racing tyres is still slower than a audi R8 on road tyres after some magzine tested them. Are they competitors though?
 
Maybe it's to do with tires. Maybe it's to do with the current racks. Whatever it is, New BMWs understeer when you push them hard.

I don't think this is really a 'new BMW' phenomenon. They've been set up for light to mild understeer at the limit for as long as I can recall. My E30 did this. All three of my E36s did it; one of them quite stubbornly and my E46 had the same tendency.

One big reason is because the front strut suspension doesn't build much camber under load. So the outer edge of the outside tire takes some very heavy abuse.

Autocross speeds also tend to magnify understeer because the corners are so tight and its easy to overcook one (if you're off by just a few inches, steering angles go up dramatically). Also adding to that impression is size and curb weights have gone up. And as the cars get heavier (and wheelbases stretch) low speed understeer become more pronounced.

I also remember the E46 M3 took a lot of flack 8 years ago for being an understeer queen. The press complained about it. Owners moaned and bitched about it. I even noticed it the first time I drove one. Yet as time passes, people seemed to have forgotten all about it.:confused:

A M3 on racing tyres is still slower than a audi R8 on road tyres after some magzine tested them. Are they competitors though?

No. Why would they be? They have one thing in common though: they're both 300 lbs. heavier than they should be.

A 420 hp RS4 is still slower than a '300 hp' 335i after some magazine tested them. Are they competitors though?


M
 
I don't think this is really a 'new BMW' phenomenon. They've been set up for light to mild understeer at the limit for as long as I can recall. My E30 did this. All three of my E36s did it; one of them quite stubbornly and my E46 had the same tendency.

One big reason is because the front strut suspension doesn't build much camber under load. So the outer edge of the outside tire takes some very heavy abuse.

Autocross speeds also tend to magnify understeer because the corners are so tight and its easy to overcook one (if you're off by just a few inches, steering angles go up dramatically). Also adding to that impression is size and curb weights have gone up. And as the cars get heavier (and wheelbases stretch) low speed understeer become more pronounced.

I also remember the E46 M3 took a lot of flack 8 years ago for being an understeer queen. The press complained about it. Owners moaned and bitched about it. I even noticed it the first time I drove one. Yet as time passes, people seemed to have forgotten all about it.:confused:

M

Excellent point.

I'd forgotten about that.

I talked to a guy with one of the few AWD E30s ever made (20,000 or so for the six cylinder, was it?) and he commented on understeer in the rear-drive versions versus his car.

Yeah, I guess the fact that the front end doesn't build camber naturally would give BMWs some turn-in understeer. 👍
 
No. Why would they be? They have one thing in common though: they're both 300 lbs. heavier than they should be.

A 420 hp RS4 is still slower than a '300 hp' 335i after some magazine tested them. Are they competitors though?


M

That 335i was also faster than the Z4M around that track. It was a fluke.









Audi R8
-V8
-420 hp / 7800 rpm
-430 Nm / 4500-6000 rpm
-6 speed manual gb.
-AWD
-Pirelli P Zero
-1661 kg
-301 km/h
-0-60 km/h: 1,8 s
-0-100 km/h: 4,4 s
-0-160 km/h: 10,3 s
-0-200 km/h: 15,2 s
-18 m slalom: 66,8 km/h
-Handling-course: 1:39,8 min
-100-0 km/h (warm): 35,2 m

BMW M3 (with Sport-Pack)
-V8
-420 hp / 8300 rpm
-400 Nm / 3900 rpm
-6 speed manual gb.
-RWD
-Michelin Pilot Sport Cup
-1626 kg
-250 km/h (limited)
-0-60 km/h: 2,6 s
-0-100 km/h: 4,8 s
-0-160 km/h: 10,3 s
-0-200 km/h: 15,2 s
-18 m slalom: 70,4 km/h
-Handling-course: 1:40,1 min
-100-0 km/h (warm): 34,9 m

Corvette C6
-V8
-404 hp / 6000 rpm
-546 Nm / 4400 rpm
-6 speed manual gb.
-RWD
-Goodyear Eagle F1
-1626 kg
-300 km/h
-0-60 km/h: 2,3 s
-0-100 km/h: 4,8 s
-0-160 km/h: 10,1 s
-0-200 km/h: 15,6 s
-18 m slalom: 62,3 km/h
-Handling-course: 1:44,2 min
-100-0 km/h (warm): 36,0 m
 
Here comes the excuses. :lol: I love it when someone wants to play magazine racer but only runs around waving the test results that suit him.

So what does the R8 (a USD $100,000+ supercar that was slower than a sub $50,000 C6 in some magazine test) have to do with an M3 sedan, which has 4 doors, 4 seats, a real trunk and costs 2/3rds of the Audi?


M

Except that your results are all one offs. We all know that the C6 cant compete against the R8 around 98% of racetracks. The R8 has been beating the 911 time and time again, and we all know that the C6 cannot compete with similiar powered 911's.

I love how you mention price also, I could build a car in my shed that could spank each of those cars on that list. Put things into perspective price wise ;)

P.S

How does the results that I posted suit me? everyone knew anyway that the R8 is faster than the M3. Infact it is you who is posting results that suit you. Its liek you were offended to find out that even with racing tires the M3 cannot beat a audi R8.
 
That 335i was also faster than the Z4M around that track. It was a fluke.









Audi R8
-V8
-420 hp / 7800 rpm
-430 Nm / 4500-6000 rpm
-6 speed manual gb.
-AWD
-Pirelli P Zero
-1661 kg
-301 km/h
-0-60 km/h: 1,8 s
-0-100 km/h: 4,4 s
-0-160 km/h: 10,3 s
-0-200 km/h: 15,2 s
-18 m slalom: 66,8 km/h
-Handling-course: 1:39,8 min
-100-0 km/h (warm): 35,2 m

BMW M3 (with Sport-Pack)
-V8
-420 hp / 8300 rpm
-400 Nm / 3900 rpm
-6 speed manual gb.
-RWD
-Michelin Pilot Sport Cup
-1626 kg
-250 km/h (limited)
-0-60 km/h: 2,6 s
-0-100 km/h: 4,8 s
-0-160 km/h: 10,3 s
-0-200 km/h: 15,2 s
-18 m slalom: 70,4 km/h
-Handling-course: 1:40,1 min
-100-0 km/h (warm): 34,9 m

Corvette C6
-V8
-404 hp / 6000 rpm
-546 Nm / 4400 rpm
-6 speed manual gb.
-RWD
-Goodyear Eagle F1
-1626 kg
-300 km/h
-0-60 km/h: 2,3 s
-0-100 km/h: 4,8 s
-0-160 km/h: 10,1 s
-0-200 km/h: 15,6 s
-18 m slalom: 62,3 km/h
-Handling-course: 1:44,2 min
-100-0 km/h (warm): 36,0 m
Is this around the Top Gear Track?
 
Except that your results are all one offs. We all know that the C6 cant compete against the R8 around 98% of racetracks. The R8 has been beating the 911 time and time again, and we all know that the C6 cannot compete with similiar powered 911's.

Ohh. Touched a nerve there, I see. ;) Say no more. I completely understand... it was a FLUKE :lol:

I love how you mention price also, I could build a car in my shed that could spank each of those cars on that list. Put things into perspective price wise ;)

You yourself asked if the R8 and M3 were competitors. I made of short list of qualities that any person could compare for themselves and see plain as day they aren't. Price is one. But so is size, chassis configuration, number of seats, etc.

But you already knew that before you posted. You know they aren't. So why the post? There is only one answer.

And btw, build a car in your shed that spanks an R8 or M3 or C6 on the track, has a full leather interior, starts and runs everyday, rides well, is comfortable, offers the same level of safety, entertainment and luxury equipment, has a full factory warranty and will run past 100,000 miles without breaking a sweat, without costing a penny more and then you might be in the position to teach me about perspective. :rolleyes:

How does the results that I posted suit me?

Simple. If an Audi is slower, there's always an excuse with you. "It's a fluke" or "your results are one offs".

You have no interest in understanding why. You just discard the result because it doesn't please you. You'll notice that I made zero attempts at discrediting the M3 vs. R8 test you posted (but don't provide a link to) That's because I don't have a problem with the M3 being slower than the R8; it should be slower. But when I show an Audi losing to something else, you have nothing but excuses.

It also never occurred to you to say "what does the 335i and RS4 have to do with this? I was talking about the M3 and R8." That's because the only thing that's important to you is to be able to say Audi is faster, not to put a discussion into proper context. Context is not something you're interested in; only cheerleading.

I think it also speaks volumes that the first thing you replied to was the C6 beating the R8 around VIR, even though it was an obvious non-sequitur and not at all central to the discussion.

everyone knew anyway that the R8 is faster than the M3. Infact it is you who is posting results that suit you. Its liek you were offended to find out that even with racing tires the M3 cannot beat a audi R8.

The M3 is now a bloated, heavy GT car that will turn lackluster lap times compared with pure sports cars and hasn't been a focused track car since 1991. A 997S or C6 should beat one around most tracks. Its a good road car and probably does a decent job at reminding you of a real sports car, but stops far short of going all the way. It's primary saving graces is that it's good at what it does, and is slightly less bloated and heavy compared with its primary competitors, which approach comedy status with their girth.

I know that you really want to believe this somehow bothers me. Sorry to disappoint you :lol: What I dislike is someone trolling a thread thinking we're too stupid to see the obvious.

Now. Back to the topic. BMW M3 sedan. Why are we comparing it to the R8? Is it because if we compare it to the RS4 (like everyone does), you won't have a easy way to declare Audi superior? Fess up.


M
 
Why are those three cars being compared with 3 different tires? That invalidates the test.
 
Why are those three cars being compared with 3 different tires? That invalidates the test.

I think it's actually more fair and objective to use the OEM tires. First, manufactures often work with the tire supplier during the development cycle of the car. They have input in the design of the tire and can influence its characteristics to better suit the suspension. If a magazine made an attempt to equalize things by putting the same tire on every car, you could make an argument they are modifying the car's handling and thus biasing the test.

The second argument is simply that a buyer typically doesn't have a choice what tires are delivered with the car. For example, I didn't want ContiSportContacts on my car, but that's what I got. That's because BMW had Conti make a batch of these (not so good) tires for the E46 M3s/Z4 Ms. It even says "M3" on the sidewall (no kidding) to indicate the M division had input on the design. A magazine should test what buyers get. Otherwise they're not testing exactly the same car.


M
 
Except that your results are all one offs. We all know that the C6 cant compete against the R8 around 98% of racetracks. The R8 has been beating the 911 time and time again, and we all know that the C6 cannot compete with similiar powered 911's.

Two MAJOR problems:

1) That was not a 2008 Corvette Z51, which added 36 extra BHP, a refined suspension, and a slightly different gearbox. The performance increase was noticeable, finally beating the previous C5 Z06 without much of a problem at all.

2) For that price range, they should have been using the Corvette Z06, power differences be damned...

===

And the Porsche track comparisons?

As I recall, the only Porsche that has been able to conquer the Corvette (Z06) under most circumstances has been the GT3, and with at least an extra $40K over the sticker price, that leaves plenty of room for a used E46 M3.

Also, please take note of Car and Driver's "Lightning Lap" (at Virginia International Raceway) competition for 2007:

Click Here for PDF Download

The skinny?

Corvette Z06: 2:58.2
Porsche 911 GT3: 3:01.8
Corvette Z51 ('07): 3:03.6
Porsche 911 Turbo: 3:05.8

And just for kicks?

Audi R8: 3:04.6

So, yes, our Corvette can keep up quite easily...
 
I think it's actually more fair and objective to use the OEM tires. First, manufactures often work with the tire supplier during the development cycle of the car. They have input in the design of the tire and can influence its characteristics to better suit the suspension. If a magazine made an attempt to equalize things by putting the same tire on every car, you could make an argument they are modifying the car's handling and thus biasing the test.

The second argument is simply that a buyer typically doesn't have a choice what tires are delivered with the car. For example, I didn't want ContiSportContacts on my car, but that's what I got. That's because BMW had Conti make a batch of these (not so good) tires for the E46 M3s/Z4 Ms. It even says "M3" on the sidewall (no kidding) to indicate the M division had input on the design. A magazine should test what buyers get. Otherwise they're not testing exactly the same car.


M

I usually have the same conundrum. We once argued with Toyota for a week before they put the stock wheels and tires back on a tester they were sending us.

I do feel that the Pilot Sport Cups are an unfair advantage to any car that rides on them, but then, so many "extreme" summer tires nowadays are sticky as hell, it doesn't really matter as much.

What matters most to me is how the car "feels", as tuned (with tires) from the factory.

What's surprising is that even on the same crap tires, the default character of different vehicles is still very noticeable. A sharp car will still "feel" sharp on poor tires. It'll just understeer more.

A poor car will understeer less on good tires, but once you get over the quicker turn in, it'll still feel and drive like a pig.

And, unfortunately, it's a market fact... most buyers don't and won't change their stock tires for another variant or brand. And in cases like this, where the tires have been "designed" for their particular car (Conti-sports? Ewwwww...), chances of defection are even lower.

--------

RE: Lap times... M-Spec has it right with not disputing times... depending on the course, the nature of the turns, where the shifts fall (what revs in what gear at the corner apex?), the time of day, the driving style of the tester, laps can give conflicting results.

Do I believe that the Audi R8 could beat an M3? Maybe. Do I believe that, given the right situation, an M3 could beat an R8? Maybe again.

Of course, since the R8 is being marketed against the Porsche 911... the point is moot.

We compare the M3, C63, and the RS4 because that's what the manufacturers want us to compare against each other.

They're marketed in the same product niche, with similar prices and similar features.

If one is slower against the clock than the other, so be it... in another model year or so, Audi/MB/BMW will give it another fifty horses, stickier tires or whatever, and it'll be faster. Then BMW/MB/Audi will follow suit.

-----

Whatever... give me a BMW 120i coupe and I'll be happy. :lol:
 
Two MAJOR problems:

1) That was not a 2008 Corvette Z51, which added 36 extra BHP, a refined suspension, and a slightly different gearbox. The performance increase was noticeable, finally beating the previous C5 Z06 without much of a problem at all.
The only reason that the 2008 Corvette is better than the one before in a noticable reason, horsepower and interior quality be damned, is that the made it so the cars power steering wasn't terrible. Had they done it way back in 1997 with the C5, Chevrolet would be beating a lot more Porsches than it had up to the C6 Z06. The Z06 needed the extra power and less weight to wail on Porsches with far less power because the steering was terrible, mushy and imprecise. Which has been a problem ever since the early 1990s C4 revision.
 
Very true, and the odd thing about it all is that the lack of steering feel has been an ongoing issue since the 1970s even, something that was noted in the most-recent Car and Driver. Finally listening to the customers is a big help, not to mention the fact that GM really does want to rule the segment at a value price.

As I recall, the "previous" C6 was about even with the 997 Carrera S, the updates really pushing it pretty far ahead in Z51 form.

===

Still, I don't know if I'd immediately rate the Corvette an M3 competitor right away, but I know if I was shopping in the segment, I'd probably consider the two. Get me a CTS-V or a G8 GXP and I'll be more likely to choose the sedans on occasion...
 
I also have a hard time saying the M3 and Vette are competitive with each other. I'll have to wait and see what the new M3 can do.
Something tells me the E92 is going to be a bit more awesome than the last generation. Does that mean it will keep up with the Z06 C6? I doubt it, but I'm sure it will still be an awesome car. 👍
Btw, the reason I mention the Z06 C6 is because that's the kind of price range we are talking about with 911s, the R8, and the M3... I just don't see the point in ignoring the price and then comparing a basic C6 to the M3. :confused:
Is there a reason for comparing the M3 and the basic C6 instead of the Z06?

Btw, I think M-spec was right... The Corvette, R8, and 911 shouldn't be in comparisons with the M3 Sedan.
Also, I wouldn't say the R8 is consistantly beating the 911. In fact, I think they are very close in competition and Fifth Gear's recent comparison of the two seems to support the fact that they are nearly a perfectly even match.

As for the Sedan M3 v. the RS4... I'd like to see that challenge. I bet the RS4 can keep up but the way the M3 sedan drives will probably help it to out-shine the RS4 on the track. Not sure about that though and so I'm looking forward to seeing a proper comparison by fifth gear.
 
Price aside, i can't see any reason why an M3 could be compared to a Vette, a 911 or an R8. One is a saloon/sedan based coupe and the others are purpose built sports coupes. My all means include the 6-series BMW in comparisons to 911's etc, but the M3 is a totally different kettle of ball games.
 

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