BMW M3 Sedan/Saloon Debut

  • Thread starter Thread starter YSSMAN
  • 112 comments
  • 6,870 views
TheCracker
Price aside, i can't see any reason why an M3 could be compared to a Vette, a 911 or an R8. One is a saloon/sedan based coupe and the others are purpose built sports coupes. My all means include the 6-series BMW in comparisons to 911's etc, but the M3 is a totally different kettle of ball games.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure the 6 series will do better in a comparison than the M3. Actually, I can totally understand a comparison of the M3 coupe and the Z06. Fact is, price is one of, if not the first factor to consider. Further, I think of the M3 coupe as a car focused on sports. I could be wrong but man-oh-man is that a long running mistake... It just seems to me like the M3 has always been a sports car effort. For some reason that doesn't seem to be the case once it gets a comparison where it can't keep up. ;) :lol: Just kidding. :D

I understand the M3 coupe isn't a dedicated true sports car but to act as if it is far from that is a bit off base in my opinion. Heck, the CSL (which is just an M3 stripped and refined) was and still is by some, considered the benchmark in FR sports cars.

Based on what people have been saying in this thread I get the feeling the E92 will not even have a CSL variant simply because the M3 isn't supposed to be a sports car. :indiff: :( (I really liked the CSL as a FR competitor to the bigdogs :sly: )
 
Kent
I also have a hard time saying the M3 and Vette are competitive with each other. I'll have to wait and see what the new M3 can do.
Something tells me the E92 is going to be a bit more awesome than the last generation. Does that mean it will keep up with the Z06 C6? I doubt it, but I'm sure it will still be an awesome car. 👍
Btw, the reason I mention the Z06 C6 is because that's the kind of price range we are talking about with 911s, the R8, and the M3... I just don't see the point in ignoring the price and then comparing a basic C6 to the M3. :confused:
Is there a reason for comparing the M3 and the basic C6 instead of the Z06?
Click to expand...

I don't think the M3 should be compared against any Corvette, really. I realize its tempting to do so because each car is the performance flagship of its respective brand and the price of the cars have some overlap. But I think in reality, they don't have very much in common.

The M3 is more practical. The Vette (any version) has a notably stronger performance envelope. The sheer weight of the M3 puts it out of running. But the M3 has driver interaction, refinement and luxury that the Corvette is only beginning to target.

Since the E36 version of the car, BMW has pushed the M3 as "the car you would have if you can only have one car." I even have an old brochure from 1994 where it makes that very statement. Which means it tries to do everything for everyone and be all things to all people.

Perfect example: I used to put R-compound tires on the my M3, compete in a Sunday autocross, then put the regular tires back on and loaf down to the coast for a nice dinner with my wife. When I had a kid, it made a perfectly good baby-hauler.

The Corvette can be also a perfectly good daily driver, but because it only has 2 seats, doesn't make a compelling argument for anyone with a family. I don't know for sure, but I'd wager Corvettes are primarily bought by either young, single people or older empty-nesters.

Anyway, to put simply, the M3 is a sedan. The Vette is a sports car. They each have their respective strengths and weaknesses. While its fun to compare them, at the end of the day, you buy them for different reasons.


M
 
Kent
I'm not sure the 6 series will do better in a comparison than the M3. Actually, I can totally understand a comparison of the M3 coupe and the Z06. Fact is, price is one of, if not the first factor to consider. Further, I think of the M3 coupe as a car focused on sports. I could be wrong but man-oh-man is that a long running mistake... It just seems to me like the M3 has always been a sports car effort. For some reason that doesn't seem to be the case once it gets a comparison where it can't keep up. ;) :lol: Just kidding. :D

I understand the M3 coupe isn't a dedicated true sports car but to act as if it is far from that is a bit off base in my opinion. Heck, the CSL (which is just an M3 stripped and refined) was and still is by some, considered the benchmark in FR sports cars.
Click to expand...

Looking at the whole package, I agree; that is the power of the M badge and if I understand correctly it's purpose - to create a sports coupe. However, comparing purely on numbers/times would be pointless, and only a review of one of the many facets of both cars, in particular the BMW.
 
///M-Spec
Nope.



YSSMAN, niky and Toronado, all good points as usual.


M
Click to expand...

It must have not gone through.

Basically what I said in short is that BMW themselves actually list the 911 as a competitor in their sales brochure for the M3, hence me asking if the R8 and M3 could be considered as to be competing.
 
forza2.0
It must have not gone through.

Basically what I said in short is that BMW themselves actually list the 911 as a competitor in their sales brochure for the M3, hence me asking if the R8 and M3 could be considered as to be competing.
Click to expand...

I'm not speaking for others here but I will give my interpretation of the various opinions expressed.

There are several ways to build a comparison, price and performance are only two variables. Because of overlapping variables such as the price, the M3 can often be considered competition to other cars that do not necessarily attempt to achieve the same goals as the M3.

From there you have to consider "what the M3 is to you."

If you consider the M3 BMW's benchmark in performance then you might not value the M3 as much as another individual who see's the M3 as a driver's car for the family man with enough money to buy a Porsche.
 
You know what I find incredibly depressing, that we'll never get a truly unbiased review of this, for some reason, I see a ton of magazines putting the M3 up front because "LOL ITS A BMW WIFF AN M ON ZE BACK. HURF DURF MOST LOVE"

Don't get me wrong, its sure to be a breathtakingly good handling car, with a damn good amount of handling, but when its down 100 horsepower against half its competition, its just gonna be hard to swallow it winning everything.
 
I'm really not completely against comparing the M3 coupe with cars like the Corvette C6.5 and 911 C2S, particularly given that they would likely be cross-shopped with the Bimmer. However, that does not necessarily make it a good competition either...

For now I'd say its better to just stack it up against the CLK63 and S5, and quite honestly, thats a tough crowd.
 
@forza 2.0: Well... as against the 911... I guess it depends on which 911 you're talking about.

The Turbo supercar? The 911 GT3, which is about as much a "road car" as a Caterham is? The sun-lover's Convertible?

The M3 may be marketed against the base-level 911 (which might still have it beat in terms of overall performance), the 911 has always been touted as a "practical" sports car (due to its 2 + 2 seating... +2, that is, if you consider a Mini's rear seat +2, also)... so a lot of people target the base 911 with their sports coupes and sedans... but the Audi R8 is definitely marketed against the "911 Supercar", the Turbo... considering both cars run north of $100k (apparently, from a quick scan of online prices).

The Turbo is to the regular 911 as the M3 is to the regular 3 series. They look the same, they share the same underpinnings, but it's a whole different kettle of fish in terms of market placement and price.
 
forza2.0
Basically what I said in short is that BMW themselves actually list the 911 as a competitor in their sales brochure for the M3, hence me asking if the R8 and M3 could be considered as to be competing.
Click to expand...

By definition, for two cars to be marketplace competitors, they need to be competing for the same customers.

Saying the R8 competes for customers against the M3 is like saying it also competes for customers who are looking at an RS4. And that would be quite a stretch, not to mention stupid. Why would Audi build two cars that will directly compete and cannibalize their own sales?

The answer is they wouldn't. In the US market, the R8 starts at $109,000.

The M3 is estimated to start at $62,000.
An RS4 is $66,910.
A 911 Carrera starts at $73,500.

Do the math, smart guy. BMW markets the M3 against the base 911 (and has done this since the E36 version) because they want to steal a few buyers by giving them a more practical alternative that has some advantages on paper and is also less expensive.

But there is a $47,000 gap between the M3 and R8. That is roughly the price of a C6 Corvette, two 2008 Accord EXs or expressed even better, about the same as the 2006 median household income in the US.

Ain't gonna happen. People who can afford R8s in a completely different demographic, and are looking at 911 Turbos, V8 Vantages or a small luxury yacht; not something that most people confuse with $34,000 328s. Give it a rest already. Your motives are obvious and we're not all stupid around here.

Kent
There are several ways to build a comparison, price and performance are only two variables. Because of overlapping variables such as the price, the M3 can often be considered competition to other cars that do not necessarily attempt to achieve the same goals as the M3.
Click to expand...

That's well said. 👍

YSSMAN
For now I'd say its better to just stack it up against the CLK63 and S5, and quite honestly, thats a tough crowd.
Click to expand...

Price wise, the S5 sits between the M3 and 335i: $50,500. Performance wise, its closer to the 335i.



I still want one, though. Thinking pretty strongly about it.


M
 
Thats right, I forgot about that. You see the "S" badge and you automatically think performance, but we're still two to three years away from seeing an RS version thanks to Audi's idiotic way of only having a few special ones at a time...

...I'm generally not a big Audi fan (odd, as I love VW), but the A5/S5 is an impressive car both inside and out. If they ever decided to build one "right" with the 2.0T, a six-speed manual, and a cloth/leather interior, I'd seriously consider one...

(I know, I'm a cheap-ass)
 
Tophaticent
You know what I find incredibly depressing, that we'll never get a truly unbiased review of this, for some reason, I see a ton of magazines putting the M3 up front because "LOL ITS A BMW WIFF AN M ON ZE BACK. HURF DURF MOST LOVE"

Don't get me wrong, its sure to be a breathtakingly good handling car, with a damn good amount of handling, but when its down 100 horsepower against half its competition, its just gonna be hard to swallow it winning everything.
Click to expand...
The M3 being down on power compared to its competition yet still capturing automotive journalists' hearts is nothing new. In fact, that describes every generation of M3. ;)
 
...since when was it going to be 100 bhp down on half the competition? Where are these 500+ cars we speak of, other than the rumoured output of the CTS-V?

I still don't understand Audi's point with the S range. It's right inbetween the 335 and M3, and then their highest non-S A4 is a good chunk below the 335 in terms of power. Only with the RS's do I see direct competition, and I don't know if this strategy is helpful for them or not.
 
SlipZtrEm
I still don't understand Audi's point with the S range. It's right inbetween the 335 and M3, and then their highest non-S A4 is a good chunk below the 335 in terms of power. Only with the RS's do I see direct competition, and I don't know if this strategy is helpful for them or not.
Click to expand...

although it has more power performance wise its closer the 335i , I think maybe using the S badge just to make the model stand out
 
BMW318ciC
although it has more power performance wise its closer the 335i , I think maybe using the S badge just to make the model stand out
Click to expand...

This is correct, something which many people dont think was a clever move on audi's part!

Audi will be introducing a 3.0 or 3.2 V6 biTurbo which should be as quick as the 350hp V8 motor but will cost less but also have special styling to distinguish it from the rest of the range. Really audi should have offered the S5 with 380-390 hp.
 
http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080115.007/bmw-m3-coupe-pricing-announced-us

During the North American Motor Show, BMW announced the pricing for the new M3 and its good news with the sedan coming in at $54,575 and the coupe at $57,275 which is much lower than had been originally anticipated. Recent reports had suggested it would be priced nearer the $62K mark.

The signicance of this is likely to be felt by Lexus who had recently announced the pricing of the IS F will be $57,000 which really puts the two rivals in a serious battle for superiority
Click to expand...

I guess BMW priced it will against the Lexus ?
 
Let's break out the C63/RS4 again, and throw these two four-doors into the ring. Surprised, though, that the M3 4-door is lower in price than...a Lexus.
 
Wow, a BMW cheaper and better-performing than a Lexus? That, usually, is a reversal of what is "supposed to happen."

Huh. Makes you wonder what the CTS-V will sticker for now...
 
I think we'll have to wait for a BLS(BTS?)-V to get a true M3 competitor. The CTS-V is getting a little big, more of an M5 Competitor.
 
M3 sedan = Fail

BMW execs: Well we have the new M3 coupe what are we going to do with the 4dr. version?
BMW designer: We could just slap the new M3 coupe face on the front of the the old M3 sedan?
BMW execs: Do it.

in other news... I can't believe I got sucked into liking this M3 coupe

Danachronism
Anyone else feeling...underwhelmed?
Click to expand...

Slightly...
 
V1P3R
M3 sedan = Fail

BMW execs: Well we have the new M3 coupe what are we going to do with the 4dr. version?
BMW designer: We could just slap the new M3 coupe face on the front of the the old M3 sedan?
BMW execs: Do it.

in other news... I can't believe I got sucked into liking this M3 coupe



Slightly...
Click to expand...

you can't just say the M3 sedan = fails , where are the facts?

I for one actually like the M3 sedan more than the coupe look wise (I look both), people like my uncle who have kids always wanted an M3 but its not good if you have a family this is where the M3 sedan comes into play
 
At a slightly cheaper price... the M3 sedan is what... 0.1 seconds slower? How much is an exhaust...? :D :D :D
 
After sitting in both at the auto show I think I like the coupe better in terms of comfort and looks, but the sedan isn't really all that bad. The back seat was a bit cramped but I wasn't expecting some spacious cruiser.
 
You can't say the M3 Sedan is a failure. It may handle a little worse than the Coupe due to its higher center of gravity and longer length, but that mean it won't still be up towards the front of the class.
Now, the M3 convertible, there is a failure.
 
Toronado

Now, the M3 convertible, there is a failure.
Click to expand...

I've seen more M3 'verts around here than coupés, oddly enough.
 
Toronado
You can't say the M3 Sedan is a failure. It may handle a little worse than the Coupe due to its higher center of gravity and longer length, but that mean it won't still be up towards the front of the class.
Now, the M3 convertible, there is a failure.
Click to expand...
Well, BMW knows no one really compares the Conv. on a performance level, so as we all know, it's merely a "show"-type vehicle.
I expect them to sell quite well though. I know the E46 Convertibles did.
 
E90 M3s, or E46s? I have no qualms with the E46 convertible.
 
Toronado
E90 M3s, or E46s? I have no qualms with the E46 convertible.
Click to expand...

E46's, though I can't see the E90 being any different in a few years time as people LOVE Bimmers (especially convertible ones that have an M) here...
 
Back