BOP amongst a car class

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Rosinbag1, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. Rosinbag1

    Rosinbag1

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    How accurately does BOP equal
    car performance across cars within a single class in TT mode? Allowing for other set up changes to be made other than weight and power?
     
  2. snowgt

    snowgt

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    It’s so inaccurate that it hardly deserves to be called BoP.

    That’s if you were talking about the N-classes.
     
  3. talhaONE

    talhaONE

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    Pd is doing great job at doing Gr classes bop. However N class bops are untouched since the release of the game so they are very unbalanced.
     
  4. pedrocor

    pedrocor

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    They should use a Performance Point system like in GT6, it would be a lot more accurate than the Nx00 system, that only accounts the power output, but not the weight, level of downforce, chassis capabilities...
     
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  5. Adam Barber

    Adam Barber

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    That's actually a good idea instead of the current N classes of cars they should replace it with the PP system, perfect example is the X-Bow will monster anything in N300 other than stuff that's been de tuned to n300 like the F50 or S-FR racing concept.

    Edit: this should mean that n class FIA races could have more varied grids instead of effectively bring one make races.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  6. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    I'd only say that for Gr.4 and Gr.3. They haven't really touched Gr.1 nearly as much. In fact, it seems like they only make any BoP changes to Gr.1 when a new Gr.1 car is added, like the 962 and 787B.

    And even for Gr.4 & Gr.3, I'd say there could could be improvements, like how the Megane Gr.4 is far too light.

    Honestly, I'd add the ability to tune downforce and final gear ratio, and noting else. Not the individual gears, nor the top speed (auto-set) setting - everything else would be locked. I recall reading that less than 20% of GTS players have even tried Sport Mode once. And if you've played more than ten races, you're now in a group that makes up 7% of GTS players, being about half a million players. Is having tuning enabled in this hypothetically limited capacity really gonna result in a big drop-off? I could see players being driven away if all tuning was enabled, but just those two? It's a competitive ranked mode! It's not like the people who play Sport Mode are casuals, anyway! And even if they were, then if they can understand the difference between light & heavy characters in Mario Kart, they can understand how to tune these two settings.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  7. talhaONE

    talhaONE

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    @MIE1992 Megane is very light just like any other fwd cars because fwd cars eats up front tires much quickly then the rest. Lighter the car = slower tire wear. Some gr.4 cars like 4c and megane trophy are still lightweight but those cars have way worse power to balance it.

    Pp system wasnt any better then the currently N class system. There were always 1 meta car that breaks the records on seasonal events in gt6. Also cars like Focus rs and Toyota ts050 and some other cars were disgustingly overpowered they spammed in every n500 lobby.

    Currently the advantage of pp system over N class system is variety. Other then pp class isnt any better then N class system.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  8. pedrocor

    pedrocor

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    Well, here we have my account, a full PS Plus account, where I play Sport mode regularly, my kid's account, which is a sub-account parentally controlled, so you can only do qualifies and time trials, but not races itself and a "guest" account to other people who come to visit just to not mess around in the main account.
    I believe there are many cases like mine or people who bought the game on a sale and don't have PS Plus account (those guys with just a few races, like the 14 days trial period from PS Plus), and so on.

    Tuning restrictions, I believe, aren't intended to avoid alienate people with the complexity of tuning but instead just to make BoP process more effective. BoP is something really hard to get, just look GT3, GTE/GTLM or TCR racing on real life, with professional testers, again there is always a meta car on those categories, being the only difference the cars cost huge ammounts of real world currency, they can't just grind in Blue Moon for half an hour and buy another car. Also, in this categories, for the same reason, there are restrictions to settings, with narrower "windows" of adjustment than we would expect (for instance gear ratios are fixed and homologated previous to season's BoP collective test on GT3, TCR has minimum ride height individual to each car, just like weight and power, and so on.

    IMHO opinion is better. Isn't free from flaws obviously, but the current system is, let's say, about 10% accurate, I believe, in the same scale of things, PP would be about 50% accurate. Sure, there are the another 50% missing, there always would be a meta, but a N300 Toyota Supra would be competing with a N200 BMW M3, instead of a KTM X-BOW. And N500 equivalents or N600 equiv cars wouldn't be faster than N800 equiv cars.
     
  9. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Yeah but I think allowing the tuning of downforce and final gear ratio would help to "patch-up" BoP's shortcomings, when it can't balance too well for a given course. So if there's a car that's dominating a given course even after BoP, allowing tuning of those settings could allow more cars to be viable.

    Also, I do agree with your potential thoughts on the PP system. Maybe the groups could stay for Gr.1, Gr.2, etc. but the PP system could replace the N-series. Or, instead of that, the N-series could be replaced with various, more general vehicle archetypes, like one for kei cars, or one for sporty pickup trucks. (Though I can't recall what all the groups were within GT6's lobby options.)
     
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  10. pedrocor

    pedrocor

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    Yes. Things very easy to translate to code, I think.
    Something like Top Drives to Android and iOS, qhere, besides RQ level, a car can have some "tags" associated like "Saloon", "Motorsport", etc.
    It's very simple to set events based on that
     
  11. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    Yeah. When a car is stock, it could fit into those archetypes, where it can be affected by BoP. When a player buys and installs even one part from GT Auto, the car moves out of that "archetype group" and begins to be graded by PP. And these archetypes could be based on events from various campaigns from GT games. In fact, instead of looking at the eligible car list for these events, they could be defined by their typical opponents.

    And some of them I think would be superfluous compared to others. So for example, a hypothetical Premium Sports Lounge group could instead be a Supercar Festival group, as the former is only defined by the cost of a vehicle and can include cars that don't really fit the "Premium Sports" image as depicted by the cars in the event's image in the menus, and the typical opponents of the Premium Sports Lounge could still fit very much within the Supercar Festival. Then there could be a group based on the Supercar Nostalgia Cup. Then there could be other event rules that keep the same BoP values of these archetypes, but differ by what cars are permitted. So for the Supercar Festival group, there could be a "Premium Sports Lounge" sub-group that only permits the cars that cost above 100,000cr. And neither group would necessarily permit cars that aren't supercars but cost above 100,000cr. like the Premium Sports Lounge currently does in GT League.

    As for the "main" groups, they could stay, but events featuring those groups could frequently permit tuning to the downforce and final gear ratio. There could also be "sub-classes" for those, too. For example, Gr.1 would have a sub-class for Group C racers, and another for LMPs & VGTs that resemble LMPs, like the Hyundai and Mazda VGTs.
     
  12. XSquareStickIt

    XSquareStickIt

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    In my opinion as a rather mediocre driver, BoP works only for Gr.3 cars. Granted, there will always be a standout "meta" car or two for each week's races; certain car layouts will suit certain tracks more, unless BoP starts taking both car and track into account, but that's asking for more trouble than it's worth IMO.

    Gr.4 is a barren wasteland of nothingness to begin with, so it's hard to balance nothingness. The car choice usually comes down to corners, in which case you take the 86, or outright speed, which usually mean any of the god-awful to drive how is this even a racecar FF cars. Gr.2 has 3 viable cars from 2016's GT500 race, and 3 garbage cars from 2008's. Yes, because what the 2008 death traps need to be competitive is more power gosh darn it! Gr.1 is a toss up between the hybrid prototypes; the Group C cars have no business being in the same category as cars quite literally twenty years younger than them. Yes, I would quite like to race my 5 speed, non hybrid Mazda 787B against the Porsche 919 with KERS, please!

    The N classes are the worst case scenario anyone needs to look at to see how broken the BoP system is. Production cars are so much more wildly varied in terms of purpose, construction, parts, laws to abide by, etc.. Simply moving sliders in power and mass simply cannot make for close racing. All you need to do is to take a look at each time an FIA race includes N class cars; you'll see, without exaggeration, entire grids filled with ONE car, as though it's a One-Make race. And it's usually some garbage retarded concept car that doesn't even exist to begin with. See video below:



    Balancing cars is always a tricky, and maybe even a subjective matter. The PP system in GT6 was far from perfect, but I feel that BoP is a serious step backwards in terms of actual balance. I will say that it's a lot more practical to make on the fly changes with BoP though, as PD can just move sliders around to balance cars out depending on player feedback and actual performance. BoP is also a lot more detailed in what it does to a car, as opposed to the rather ambiguous PP system in previous games. I do enjoy the BoP system as a whole, seeing as most races in GTS are held with racing cars. But the PP system I feel is a much, much better fit for production cars.
     
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  13. pedrocor

    pedrocor

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    And, how you balance a N200 Maxda MX5 Touring Car with a Atenza or a i3?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2019
  14. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    As far as the X-Bow and S-FR Racing Concept goes, I'd put the latter into a class based around a "track day" archetype, as well as the Touring Cars. For the X-Bow, I'd create a class meant for it and similar cars like the Light Car Company Rocket, BAC Mono, Caterham 7, and/or Ariel Atom, if they end up being added. I suppose it could be called a "Sporty Featherweights" class.

    Regarding the F50, I'd have classes for supercars from before and after 1979, with further classes for track-only hypercars like the FXX, Zonda R, Vulcan, or P1 GTR, and hypercars in general like the P1, 918, LaFerrari, and Veneno. It'd mirror two campaign events from prior GT games, namely the Supercar Festival, and the Supercar Nostalgia Cup. I think I'd likely place the F50 (and F40) into the hypercar group, to be honest, since they seem to have more in common with the Enzo and LaFerrari than say, a 458 or 599.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  15. talhaONE

    talhaONE

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    Seasonal events had always ONE meta car in gt6. Also focus rs would like to have a word with you.

    Even if Gt sport had pp system grids will still look like a one make race.
     
  16. MIE1992

    MIE1992

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    I think it'd help if there were more often limits on cars within a class. Like there could be an N200 event but only hot hatches could enter, like the cars from Peugeot, Citroen, Renault Sport, Alfa Romeo, VW, Ford, etc. Or if there was a Gr.1 event reserved for the Group C cars.

    Here were some other "sub-classes" I had imagined:
    -Pickups (and potentially SUVs if they're added, such as if the Range Rover Evoque returns)
    -Time Attack (Includes the S-FR Racing Concept, the X-Bow R, and the Mazda Touring Car)
    -Hypercars (LaFerrari, Enzo, F40, F50, Veneno, Veyron)
    -Track-Day Hypercars (Zonda R, P1 GTR, Vulcan)
    -"Gentlemen's Agreement" (e.g. NSX Type-R, Lancer Evo VI, WRX STI 22B, Supra Mk.III and IV, RX-7 Spirit R, GT-R R32/R33/R34, etc.)

    In addition to this (and potentially replacing some of the example cars I gave for each "archetype") could be the prohibition of "inter-class" N-series cars when tuning is prohibited, or even just when BoP is on. This would also likely make things a lot easier to balance rather than having a car potential qualify for tons of N-series classes through increasing its power and making it all just a massive mess like it is now.

    I mean I think even PD knows this, or at least something similar. There's a single N-Series event in this exhibition series and it's a one-make. It seems like there's been a lot less N-Series events in the last year or so that aren't one-makes - or are effectively one-makes, like with the BR-Z & GT86.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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