BoP Can someone explain it….

J

John Smith UK

151
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Hi Everyone, can someone explain how BoP is supposed to work, I give you a couple of examples really basic no science

the current GR4 daily race at Kyoto

the in-car appears to be the Subaru WRX GR4. 4wd/377bhp/1320kg pre BoP applied and 351bhp / 1355kg post BoP so pre BoP it has 285 bhp per tonne and Post BoP 259 bhp per tonne a difference of 10%

lamborghini Huracan GR4 pre BoP is 4wd / 404bhp / 1365kg and Post BoP 327 bhp / 1435kg. So it’s power to weights are 295 bhp per tonne and after BoP is applied it’s 227 bhp per tonne - a drop off of almost 24%

if The BoP aim is to equalise car performance then how …. A car 24% less powerful per tonne will always be slower so how does BoP work because I dont understand how it’s balanced if you choose the Lambo as an example

what am I not getting?
 
My understanding from GT Sport, was that cars were compared around a circuit (Interlagos?) and then BoP was applied to equalize the cars. I don't remember reading how BoP is worked out for GT7 though.

I think that suspension setup, gearing, and drag are also factored into the car setup, and this may account for the difference (or at least some of the differences).
 
Thanks for the reply.

is that an accurate way of doing it I wonder as some cars would shine at a track like Interlagos and others would suffer, even if you took averages across a number of tracks - I’ve always felt power to weight was a more balanced measure for equalising performance
 
It's a massive flaw that the BoP is not per-track. But in the end especially in the lower tiers it doesn't really matter what car you use anyway, I prefer to drive a car I'm comfortable with over one that the Top 100 players in the world deemed best.
 
My understanding is that BoP is not merely an equation but the result of that equation then tested by in-house drivers and adjusted accordingly.

It is therefore a subjective result rather than an objective application.
 
genuinely would not be surprised in the slightest if the manufacturers want their cars to be faster as a form of advertisement. maybe "lobbying" is a silly word but you know what I mean. would think that was more likely than PD actually making a serious attempt to BoP the cars
 
Different cars have different performance. Maybe the Lambo is faster with less power per ton than the Impreza
The bop should equal the different car performance, not the power per ton ratio
 
Many people confuse BoP as a pure power-to-weight ratio setting, so weight to engine power, but it matters more here. Of course, "only" the engine performance and the weight of the vehicle are obviously changed by BoP, but this is only an attempt to negate the performance differences. However, cars on the race track consist of so many more factors. The downforce through spoilers, the gradation of the transmission, the characteristics of the engine, the differential and of course the drive concept and the weight distribution. With the same BoP, some vehicles can have great advantages on some tracks, but on others they don't stand a chance and only become obstacles on the track. The most difficult thing for PD is to achieve the best possible balance here... even if it seems different. At least in Gr4 in Yamagiwa we currently have a great balance. You can see that especially now towards the end of the week in the top 100 list. Countless different vehicles in the top 100... Of course there are more WRX than others, but THAT has nothing to say, only the fact that the top 10 alone I think has 4 or 5 different vehicles at the moment shows how close it is at the moment . We're talking about hundredths and sometimes thousandths of a second difference here. THAT is great and I hope that it will be even closer and more diverse AND that PD will eventually determine the BoP for each race track individually... But and you have to be fair.. I think PD is also dependent on the many hindert aliens out there for that who probably drive hundreds of hours to get the very last fractions of a second. Based on these numbers and times, PD can then change the individual vehicles... BUT any change in physics/tire model ectr. in turn has an influence on the BoP.
 
mattikake
I reckon it's Japanese favouritism for Japanese manufacturers. Who ever heard of a wrx gt4 or gt3 car when the real world is completely dominated by European manufacturers?
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Your not wrong, Group 4 pacesetters seem to be - Am Vantage, MB GT coupe or even the Audi R8 RMS

GT3071-r
Gr4 BOP stats are here if you want to take a look, no update for the 1.16 patch yet though.

gt-engine.com

GT ENG!NE / GT7 / Gr.4 Car Specs

Gran Turismo 7 Database website
gt-engine.com gt-engine.com
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Thank you
 
All of Gt7 bop is broken, not Because I all ways drive the honda nsx, but the gr4 and gr3 are Completely off pace, Take for example Valerio Gallo is one of the best driver in Gran Turismo community And he is sometimes multiple seconds off pace, District line speed on the Nsx GR3 is a Sitting duck.

And also look at the Gr3 Bop race in Weekly races it come down to one make race And the wrx is Massively over bop.
 
Akwaaba
My understanding from GT Sport, was that cars were compared around a circuit (Interlagos?) and then BoP was applied to equalize the cars. I don't remember reading how BoP is worked out for GT7 though.

I think that suspension setup, gearing, and drag are also factored into the car setup, and this may account for the difference (or at least some of the differences).
Click to expand...
That's interesting. Didn't they say they were bringing 3 BoP packages to 7 (low, mid, high speed)? I don't actually think they did that which is... a choice, I suppose.
 
xMAXIx79
Many people confuse BoP as a pure power-to-weight ratio setting, so weight to engine power, but it matters more here. Of course, "only" the engine performance and the weight of the vehicle are obviously changed by BoP, but this is only an attempt to negate the performance differences. However, cars on the race track consist of so many more factors. The downforce through spoilers, the gradation of the transmission, the characteristics of the engine, the differential and of course the drive concept and the weight distribution. With the same BoP, some vehicles can have great advantages on some tracks, but on others they don't stand a chance and only become obstacles on the track. The most difficult thing for PD is to achieve the best possible balance here... even if it seems different. At least in Gr4 in Yamagiwa we currently have a great balance. You can see that especially now towards the end of the week in the top 100 list. Countless different vehicles in the top 100... Of course there are more WRX than others, but THAT has nothing to say, only the fact that the top 10 alone I think has 4 or 5 different vehicles at the moment shows how close it is at the moment . We're talking about hundredths and sometimes thousandths of a second difference here. THAT is great and I hope that it will be even closer and more diverse AND that PD will eventually determine the BoP for each race track individually... But and you have to be fair.. I think PD is also dependent on the many hindert aliens out there for that who probably drive hundreds of hours to get the very last fractions of a second. Based on these numbers and times, PD can then change the individual vehicles... BUT any change in physics/tire model ectr. in turn has an influence on the BoP.
Click to expand...
Don’t disagree with anything you have Written especially around downforce, tech specs etc. but surely the point of BoP is that - driver skill aside - you can jump in any car and be competitive - purely from my perspective I should be able to achieve similar times in any car I choose to drive but the variation is many seconds difference - I don’t feel it works the way perhaps it was meant to.

in the Group 4 category now it’s normally Just additional ballast the FIA use to level the playing field
 
Yes, you still don't understand what we're saying... BoP should... be like that... but it's not yet... however, the BoP settings of the game are... much better now than they were at the release... there was a lot bigger difference... Also, not every player likes every driving behavior of the car.. I eg. I just don't get along well with FF.. and many MR also cause me problems from time to time.
 
xMAXIx79
At least in Gr4 in Yamagiwa we currently have a great balance. You can see that especially now towards the end of the week in the top 100 list. Countless different vehicles in the top 100... Of course there are more WRX than others, but THAT has nothing to say, only the fact that the top 10 alone I think has 4 or 5 different vehicles at the moment shows how close it is at the moment . We're talking about hundredths and sometimes thousandths of a second difference here. THAT is great and I hope that it will be even closer and more diverse AND that PD will eventually determine the BoP for each race track individually... But and you have to be fair.. I think PD is also dependent on the many hindert aliens out there for that who probably drive hundreds of hours to get the very last fractions of a second. Based on these numbers and times, PD can then change the individual vehicles... BUT any change in physics/tire model ectr. in turn has an influence on the BoP.
Click to expand...
Agree with this. I think this week I’ve seen a good selection of cars hit the track and that is how it should be. I think the problem the game has is the rank leaderboard. I would say (I’m only guessing) that 90% of racer on Monday log on look at the leader board and see X car in the top 10 and then automatically pick this car and as @xMAXIx79 says later in the week people start to use other cars as they figure out other cars are competitive. I’ve done Race C about 5/6 times this week and I’ve had top 5 finishes with 4 different cars. AMG, M6, Hyundai and Porsche.


As for BoP I believe PD only adjust the BHP and Weight. In proper racing they adjust alot more to make the cars more even. I think if PD made more adjustments to the cars settings you could ended up with a lot more cars been competitive rather than the 3/4 they have at the minute. The only downside I can see with PD adjusting other car settings is too many people will probably end up complain that x car is undriveable etc…
https://www.fiawec.com/en/lmgte-balance-of-performance/84
 
Sure, PD can explain it. Here are all of their detailed explanations for how they calculate BoP, and how they're going to improve it going forward:

No One Page GIF
 
BoP is a bit of a joke when it allows for a rabbit & cars at the start of the race to have 20 to 40 second head start.

In GT, BoP needs to be applied where P1 has the most restrictive BoP and BoP gets less restrictive as you get to the back of the field.
 
Yeah, the Balance of Power aka A never ending Story.
@John Smith UK its not that simple as you‘ve objectively described it correct.
But like @xMAXIx79 has already explained and told us, there are many Factors which come into Account when applying BoP.
I don’t know exactly which Method or by what Parameters PD applies BoP but from my experience so far it’s actually pretty solid.
Of course you’ll always have your Anomalies or Track specific Car/Track Combo which’ll either suit more or less a specific Car and it’s unique Driving Characteristics.
But in General the differences between the Cars are Overall pretty equal.
And don’t make the mistake and get yourself confused thinking that if you choose the META Car you‘ll suddenly become Max Verstappen 😅
Our GT Aliens are capable of getting every Car within a few tenths separating each other.
But in “their“ Spheres, every Thousand of a Second is difference so of course most of them will try using the best available Car to set the fastest Lap, even it it’s just a Fraction faster than something which no one has on the Radar.
For us Mortals and Casual Gamers with Basic Human Skills, we shouldn’t give a …. About that.
No matter how hard we try, we‘ll never be able to achieve their Lap times no matter if we using the META or not.
We should just stick to whatever feels comfortable to us and just enjoy the ride.

I‘ll give you an example.
Today I decided to do a few Laps of TimeTrial around Kyoto Daily Race B for the first time this Week.
99% were using the WRX or GTR 4WD Car.
I just jumped into the Car which attracted me the most at that time in my Garage and that was the Ford Mustang with its beautiful Livery I applied a while ago.
I drove a few Laps and after a few Minutes I eventually set a Lap Time of 1:41‘50x.
I could have gone a bit faster but it’s not important to me.
I checked the Global Leaderboard and to my surprise I noticed that I am the 2nd fastest Ford Mustang Driver 😂
Not because I’m so good but just simply because I assume not many tried it.
What I’m actually trying to say is, don’t get yourself hung up too much with BoP or META or whatever Uber Car.
The BoP is working properly and we should just enjoy the Game the way it is.
No complaining, no whining or looking for excuses…the Aliens will always outperform us mere Mortals no matter the Car.
They just drive in another League, the sooner we accept our Fate the more relaxed we‘ll see the whole Picture 😁
 
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PirovacBoy
I‘ll give you an example.
Today I decided to do a few Laps of TimeTrial around Kyoto Daily Race B for the first time this Week.
99% were using the WRX or GTR 4WD Car.
I just jumped into the Car which attracted me the most at that time in my Garage and that was the Ford Mustang with its beautiful Livery I applied a while ago.
I drove a few Laps and after a few Minutes I eventually set a Lap Time of 1:41‘50x.
I could have gone a bit faster but it’s not important to me.
I checked the Global Leaderboard and to my surprise I noticed that I am the 2nd fastest Ford Mustang Driver 😂
Not because I’m so good but just simply because I assume not many tried it.
What I’m actually trying to say is, don’t get yourself hung up too much with BoP or META or whatever Uber Car.
The BoP is working properly and we should just enjoy the Game the way it is.
No complaining, no whining or looking for excuses…the Aliens will always outperform us mere Mortals no matter the Car.
They just drive in another League, the sooner we accept our Fate the more relaxed we‘ll see the whole Picture 😁
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Hit the nail on the head there with that. Rather than looking at the top 10 times and automatically picking that car because the top 10 are using it, spend a little bit of time testing a few cars. For me the WRX is not the meta car for me. My driving style doesn’t suit the car and I’m unable to extract the same time out of the car like I can with other cars.
They has been times though when BoP was completely broken and even an average drive like me couldn’t compete without the meta car. Monza Gr4 a month or two back when it was just Atenza.
 
Theoretically, every car in every class (excluding BoP) has a set of race conditions which will favour it. Some cars will perform better on bendy tracks, others on tracks with long straights. Also I assume differing fuel efficiencies, tyre wear and myriad of other factors. Some cars will perform better in different meteorological conditions etc etc.

Why do PD feel the need to impose (an attempted) 'level playing field' exercise?

Why can't they just throw the races at us and let the cars speak for themselves?
 
benjoi84
Theoretically, every car in every class (excluding BoP) has a set of race conditions which will favour it. Some cars will perform better on bendy tracks, others on tracks with long straights. Also I assume differing fuel efficiencies, tyre wear and myriad of other factors. Some cars will perform better in different meteorological conditions etc etc.

Why do PD feel the need to impose (an attempted) 'level playing field' exercise?

Why can't they just throw the races at us and let the cars speak for themselves?
Click to expand...


Because it can't be that easy in real life or in game... The cars have to be matched and it's like that in every racing series. So it's right for PD to try and level the cars.
 
xMAXIx79
Because it can't be that easy in real life or in game... The cars have to be matched and it's like that in every racing series. So it's right for PD to try and level the cars.
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It should be far easier in a game though. In real life you have the human element and teams playing tricks to try and get favourable BoP for their own cars. In a game, they're just digital cars. Or they should be. Hopefully manufactuers aren't applying pressure/$. The game should be able to simulate them, without any bias, going for thousands of laps around every circuit in lots of conditions to better balance them.

It'll never be perfect so long as they all have individual characteristics, but I have to believe PD can do far better. They certainly claimed better BoP for GT7 pre-release, we're yet to see it.
 
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xMAXIx79
Because it can't be that easy in real life or in game... The cars have to be matched and it's like that in every racing series. So it's right for PD to try and level the cars.
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I still don't get it.

Why would you need to level the cars if they have already been assigned the same class anyway? What would be the difference if any particular car were to dominate a race because of its default characteristics and not because they gave it a weird or obtrusive BoP?

PS. I get it's a thing IRL, but with us gamers getting a few different combos every single week, and the freedom to decide on a different car each time, I don't see the relevance to real competition.
 
benjoi84
I still don't get it.

Why would you need to level the cars if they have already been assigned the same class anyway? What would be the difference if any particular car were to dominate a race because of its default characteristics and not because they gave it a weird or obtrusive BoP?

PS. I get it's a thing IRL, but with us gamers getting a few different combos every single week, and the freedom to decide on a different car each time, I don't see the relevance to real competition.
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If there where more variable weather condition’s and different pit strategies BoP (within reason) wouldn’t be as much of an issue. You would find different cars excelling in different areas and in different conditions.
 
Not wanting to defend the BoP calculations, far from that, but...

You can't conclude anything just considering power 2 weight ratios. Of course, is one of the most important ratios for performance. But also is taken in consideration the mechanical grip, ride height, gear ratios, downforce levels and so on. In real life, along with data submitted by manufacturers, also there are BoP evaluation tests, where the cars, on homologation settings, are tested by a panel of independent professional racing drivers, to evaluate the performance of the cars and adjust parameters like power, minimum weight, ride height or fuel tank capacity. Even then it isn't consensual and always there is a car that stands out.
One of the most sucessful cars on GT4 is the Porsche Cayman, which isn't the best on the power 2 weight ratio.

Like @Nuschel01 said, BoP isn't track adjusted, so in real life, where it should work ok for the track of the collective test, but on other tracks... Just the gear rations will make all the difference.
Obviously, at Monza or Spa, a car with less downforce but more power will standout, at Hungaroring will be the other way around.

That said, the BoP can be well balanced and have a wide range of power to weight ratios.
For example, a few years ago, Lamborghini, when homologating EVO version of original Huracán GT3, decided to shed considerable amounts of downforce and add more power instead, not to make the car faster, but to make it more easy to amateur drivers, because the original one was very fast on professional hands but the amateur racers found beyond their habilities turn as fast as the huge amounts of downforce would allow.
 
GT7's BOP is actually not that bad, a lot of the cars are equally matched, but it can be improved. The Atenza in Gr.4 a while back was so ridiculously faster than anything else that you just had to use it if you needed a chance to win races in that category.

benjoi84
I still don't get it.

Why would you need to level the cars if they have already been assigned the same class anyway? What would be the difference if any particular car were to dominate a race because of its default characteristics and not because they gave it a weird or obtrusive BoP?
Click to expand...

Wouldn't work that way.

If we disregard BoP for say, Gr.3, the McLaren F1 and the Viper GTS-R are by faaaar the fastest cars of that group... In pretty much any circuit. They would be the meta for everything.

... And let's not get into Gr.1 where it's even worse.
 
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PirovacBoy
Yeah, the Balance of Power aka A never ending Story.
@John Smith UK its not that simple as you‘ve objectively described it correct.
But like @xMAXIx79 has already explained and told us, there are many Factors which come into Account when applying BoP.
I don’t know exactly which Method or by what Parameters PD applies BoP but from my experience so far it’s actually pretty solid.
Of course you’ll always have your Anomalies or Track specific Car/Track Combo which’ll either suit more or less a specific Car and it’s unique Driving Characteristics.
But in General the differences between the Cars are Overall pretty equal.
And don’t make the mistake and get yourself confused thinking that if you choose the META Car you‘ll suddenly become Max Verstappen 😅
Our GT Aliens are capable of getting every Car within a few tenths separating each other.
But in “their“ Spheres, every Thousand of a Second is difference so of course most of them will try using the best available Car to set the fastest Lap, even it it’s just a Fraction faster than something which no one has on the Radar.
For us Mortals and Casual Gamers with Basic Human Skills, we shouldn’t give a …. About that.
No matter how hard we try, we‘ll never be able to achieve their Lap times no matter if we using the META or not.
We should just stick to whatever feels comfortable to us and just enjoy the ride.

I‘ll give you an example.
Today I decided to do a few Laps of TimeTrial around Kyoto Daily Race B for the first time this Week.
99% were using the WRX or GTR 4WD Car.
I just jumped into the Car which attracted me the most at that time in my Garage and that was the Ford Mustang with its beautiful Livery I applied a while ago.
I drove a few Laps and after a few Minutes I eventually set a Lap Time of 1:41‘50x.
I could have gone a bit faster but it’s not important to me.
I checked the Global Leaderboard and to my surprise I noticed that I am the 2nd fastest Ford Mustang Driver 😂
Not because I’m so good but just simply because I assume not many tried it.
What I’m actually trying to say is, don’t get yourself hung up too much with BoP or META or whatever Uber Car.
The BoP is working properly and we should just enjoy the Game the way it is.
No complaining, no whining or looking for excuses…the Aliens will always outperform us mere Mortals no matter the Car.
They just drive in another League, the sooner we accept our Fate the more relaxed we‘ll see the whole Picture 😁
Click to expand...
I respect your views and opinions but GT models itself on what happens in the real world doesn’t it, if you look at the Fanatec GT World Series their isn’t a Japanese make being used by any team competing - could be a million reasons for that but performance will be a big part. the FIA keep it simple - as do Touring Cars and the Le Mans series - to balance performance they just add ballast - the standard measure for BoP is equalise the power to weight because it’s easy - easy to implement, easy to oversee and recognised as being fair (unless your getting the ballast of course) so why wouldn’t you do that in a game - your super drivers will still be fastest, your drivers with wheels will be quicker than those with pads but the capability of the cars isn’t the debate.

Im a casual racer, I race with auto gears using a pad so I don’t expect to jump in a car and be challenging for podiums or race wins but to feel my chosen car is competitive isn’t too much to ask is it - i used the Alfa in the GR4 race a couple of times and on average was 2 seconds a lap quicker than the Lambo, in the GR3 Suzuka I can’t make get any car quicker than 2.03 which I find amusing as used to do 1.57 in the beetle in GTSport

in the thread i gave the 2 examples of BoP with the Subaru and Lamborghini - if you raced the 2 side by side, equal drivers in the real world with the GT BoP formula Applied how competitive would the Lambo be with such a large impact to its performance on any circuit. I’m not saying the concept of Balanced Performance is wrong just how PD have implemented it - I used the Subaru in the example because that was the car topping the sheets at the time and the Lambo because I generally use that in GR4 races.
 

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