Braking test

[praiano63]

Hi, if anybody can explain me that, i feel it's strange, but i don't have the technical knowledges to confirm this fact.
Experience:
Car :Maserati GranTurismo S'08 fully tuned
Tyres : Sport hard
Track: Fuji speedway.

It consist in start and stabilize the speed at 200 km/h.
When you pass under the panel above the finish line, at this exact point you break till you stop.
I 've done this 4 times with 4 diferents configurations of break strength and balance.

1°) Brake 10/00 : stop just after the number 17 start position.

2°) Brake 00/10 : Stop exactly the same place of brake 10/00

3°) Brake 10/10 : more eficient braking ,stop before the number 17 start position.

4°) Brake 00/00 : Poor braking, stop passing the number 15 start position.

Why if it's evident than 00 brake is less brake, why the 00/10 brake the same than 10/00 brake ? Rear brakes are not exactly a good position to have an eficient brake for me ??????
It's not very important because the result is the same, but when i tune a car ,if i find how to correct te break balance by another way, i'll do that and increase y breaking capacity.

 

[dr_slump]

Example 100% grip:

00/10 is as good as 10/00 because front and rear brakes are equally.
0+10=10 10+0=10

The best with 100% grip would be 10/10=20

But when the tires haven't enough grip and block, it will brake less.

 

[praiano63]

Example 100% grip:

00/10 is as good as 10/00 because front and rear brakes are equally.
0+10=10 10+0=10

The best with 100% grip would be 10/10=20

But when the tires haven't enough grip and block, it will brake less.

Ok ,but the fact that in this sum of braking potential of 10, if it is concentrate to the rear don't have any influence??
Like tryng to stop with hand brake, not exactly i know , but just to figure the situation.???

 

[No_OBsT33R]

The adjuster is adjusting sensitivity to input, not how much braking force is applied.

0 = slow, lethargic

10 = fast, sharp

With 0 ABS

10/0 = front prone to lock up

0/10 = rear prone to lock up

With ABS no lock up, so in a straight line it should behave identical because the same amount of Sensitivity is applied.

10/10 with ABS both front and rear will react fast, yet still only sharp enough to insure not to lock up the wheels.

It would behave different braking into a corner or trail braking. One side (f/r) would be less sensitive and slower to apply force, the other very sensitive and sharp applying force. This can effect rotation while braking.

 

[dr_slump]

Ok ,but the fact that in this sum of braking potential of 10, if it is concentrate to the rear don't have any influence??
Like tryng to stop with hand brake, not exactly i know , but just to figure the situation.???

But the handbrake will block the rear tires. It would only work with much more grip (superduperhypersoft tires).

The adjuster is adjusting sensitivity to input, not how much braking force is applied.

Hmmm, I made the experience that it's more than just the sensitivity. I think braking force is influenced by this value.

 

[praiano63]

But the handbrake will block the rear tires. It would only work with much more grip (superduperhypersoft tires).



Hmmm, I made the experience that it's more than just the sensitivity. I think braking force is influenced by this value.

Look i'vemade another experience and now i have a theory. I correct , it's not an experience , it's a test and this is not a theory, this is an empirical constatation.

To have a maximum braking capacity + the best equilibrated car, i've done this test and it work

1°) select brake 10/10
2°) Go on any straight part of any track and go fast and straight.
3°) Brake the max and check the collor of your tyres.
4°) Reduce the value of the tyres that present more friction , more hot, less grip because they will lock before the others.
5°) When you find this equilibrate setting with the same collor during hard braking in straight line, you can go on any track and you'll have the most powerfull brake that the car can have, and the best equilibrate also.

Try and tell me, it work !!

PS: for example the set point for my maserati soft sport is 04/10

 

[dr_slump]

1°) select brake 10/10
2°) Go on any straight part of any track and go fast and straight.
3°) Brake the max and check the collor of your tyres.
4°) Reduce the value of the tyres that present more friction , more hot, less grip because they will lock before the others.
5°) When you find this equilibrate setting with the same collor during hard braking in straight line, you can go on any track and you'll have the most powerfull brake that the car can have, and the best equilibrate also.

Try and tell me, it work !!

Of course does it work, this is nearly what I do when tuning a car.

 

[praiano63]

Of course does it work, this is nearly what I do when tuning a car.

So why this value with almost only positive Front brake that everybody put most of the time ???

 

[dr_slump]

-Saving the rear tires (when tire wear is on)
-Car is more stable on the brake and tends to understeer

 

[No_OBsT33R]

But the handbrake will block the rear tires. It would only work with much more grip (superduperhypersoft tires).

Hmmm, I made the experience that it's more than just the sensitivity. I think braking force is influenced by this value.

IMO I believe that changing the sensitivity does have an effect on braking force. Only I don't think it ultimately increases force but rather effects the rate force is applied.

I'll explain why I have this opinion.

The braking of the car is in the end done by the tires, the amount of stopping force is limited to the abilities of the tires. Once they pass their abilities and lock up no more stopping power is applied.

In GT5 the test is with 0 ABS

With 0/0 braking sensitivity the brakes will still lock up, this shows even with 0/0 the same amount of stopping power is applied as with 10/10.

IRL Every car on the road has the ability to lock up their brakes, however most eccono boxes have brakes only good enough for one sudden emergency stop. After that they are over heated and usually need to cool down as they will certainly fade out due to overheating if they haven't already. We upgrade our brakes IRL to keep them able operate in a high heat environment consistently and for extended durations, without or as little brake fade as possible. Since brake fade is not simulated then the need for upgrading the braking system ( aside from adjusting sensitivity) is pointless. Well it would look kool to have some Big Brake Kits looking all kool, but it would just be for looks.

The only thing we effect with the adjuster is the rate the force is applied and therefore how prone the side (f/r) is to locking up.

With ABS on the wheels don't lock up but the braking force is limited to the tires limits none the less.

Before I get my throat cut, this is just IMO.

 

[praiano63]

IMO I believe that changing the sensitivity does have an effect on braking force. Only I don't think it ultimately increases force but rather effects the rate force is applied.

I'll explain why I have this opinion.

The braking of the car is in the end done by the tires, the amount of stopping force is limited to the abilities of the tires. Once they pass their abilities and lock up no more stopping power is applied.

In GT5 the test is with 0 ABS

With 0/0 braking sensitivity the brakes will still lock up, this shows even with 0/0 the same amount of stopping power is applied as with 10/10.

IRL Every car on the road has the ability to lock up their brakes, however most eccono boxes have brakes only good enough for one sudden emergency stop. After that they are over heated and usually need to cool down as they will certainly fade out due to overheating if they haven't already. We upgrade our brakes IRL to keep them able operate in a high heat environment consistently and for extended durations, without or as little brake fade as possible. Since brake fade is not simulated then the need for upgrading the braking system ( aside from adjusting sensitivity) is pointless. Well it would look kool to have some Big Brake Kits looking all kool, but it would just be for looks.

The only thing we effect with the adjuster is the rate the force is applied and therefore how prone the side (f/r) is to locking up.

With ABS on the wheels don't lock up but the braking force is limited to the tires limits none the less.

Before I get my throat cut, this is just IMO.

I' done a test with my AC cobra , heavy weight frontside, brake set point = 04/10.
on the speed ring, this set work better for corner entry than my AC cobra brake setting (7/5) or dr_slump ac cobra (7/6)
Moree eficient ,spare more tyres......= better
????????????????????????????????????
What's hapening finaly ?? somebody can explain??

 

[Basilea]

The adjuster is adjusting sensitivity to input, not how much braking force is applied.

0 = slow, lethargic

10 = fast, sharp

With 0 ABS

10/0 = front prone to lock up

0/10 = rear prone to lock up

With ABS no lock up, so in a straight line it should behave identical because the same amount of Sensitivity is applied.

10/10 with ABS both front and rear will react fast, yet still only sharp enough to insure not to lock up the wheels.

It would behave different braking into a corner or trail braking. One side (f/r) would be less sensitive and slower to apply force, the other very sensitive and sharp applying force. This can effect rotation while braking.

With lock up you mean the tyres block? Then it doesn't matter whether you have ABS or not... I locked my tryres easily with ABS 1 and Brake Balance above 8 Front... on the rear brakes it is not that easy to lock up...

 

[dr_slump]

Since brake fade is not simulated then the need for upgrading the braking system ( aside from adjusting sensitivity) is pointless. Well it would look kool to have some Big Brake Kits looking all kool, but it would just be for looks.

Yeah, I miss the brake tuning from GT4

I' done a test with my AC cobra , heavy weight frontside, brake set point = 04/10.
on the speed ring, this set work better for corner entry than my AC cobra brake setting (7/5) or dr_slump ac cobra (7/6)

AC cobra? I hope the AC and Shelby Cobra drive equal, cause I tuned the Shelby Premium one (I know that they should have the same handling, but I'm not sure if standard vs premium makes a difference).

Moree eficient ,spare more tyres......= better
????????????????????????????????????
What's hapening finaly ?? somebody can explain??

Look, a brake bias of 6/0 is better for the rear tire wear than a 6/4 which could brake better/more efficient.

 

[praiano63]

Yeah, I miss the brake tuning from GT4


AC cobra? I hope the AC and Shelby Cobra drive equal, cause I tuned the Shelby Premium one (I know that they should have the same handling, but I'm not sure if standard vs premium makes a difference).

exactly this one, ok,but it's still the same question.. With or without answer, i'll do the better way ,te way i feel it on the track. This is not the kind of things that take out my sleep.
Come on guys, you and Noobster sotty ...are the brains and know a lot about... It must have a reason. If GT5 don't give it , i'll check on the Forza PDF , it is very educative....Yes sir!!

 

[praiano63]

The adjuster is adjusting sensitivity to input, not how much braking force is applied.

0 = slow, lethargic

10 = fast, sharp

With 0 ABS

10/0 = front prone to lock up

0/10 = rear prone to lock up

With ABS no lock up, so in a straight line it should behave identical because the same amount of Sensitivity is applied.

10/10 with ABS both front and rear will react fast, yet still only sharp enough to insure not to lock up the wheels.

It would behave different braking into a corner or trail braking. One side (f/r) would be less sensitive and slower to apply force, the other very sensitive and sharp applying force. This can effect rotation while braking.

Check and try my new tune Maserati, it work perfectly with my test setting 04/10. Perfect equilibrate maximum braking.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

With lock up you mean the tyres block? Then it doesn't matter whether you have ABS or not... I locked my tryres easily with ABS 1 and Brake Balance above 8 Front... on the rear brakes it is not that easy to lock up...

Does increasing the brake sensitivity adjuster increase braking force?

No matter what there is no stopping force increase after lock up. ABS won't increase the stopping force. The fact you can still get lock up with ABS on, only shows that even with ABS on, the braking force is still the same, even though it resist locking up.

This tells is there is NO increase in braking force when the slider is increased.

The only way to increase stopping power is to get better tires o_O

ABS in the Game
ABS 1 is the lowest setting meaning it's not going to prevent lock up as much as a setting of ABS 10 would.

The kicker is will your brake set up perform well with 0 ABS as it would with ABS on. A good brake set up should go both ways (IMO) if only useable with the assist, then it's a set up taking advantage of the assist, for a driving style that takes advantage of the assist.

Tire Wear
ABS on in The game, the indicator shows what wheel is getting stressed as it's preventing lock up. Using high rear bias will keep the front from doing so much work under braking at the expense of the rear.

This is great to minimize tire wear on the front, while the rear (in AWD/RWD) are doing most of the acceleration work also, this puts a greater stress on them and could lead to faster tire wear on the rear vs the front. Balancing tire wear is important for those long timed events.

Game Vs Reality
The ABS (in the game) allows for a aggressive, fast driving style that would mean certain death IRL, or simply wouldn't be used because of the regulations, IRL ABS is restricted most of the time (mini disclaimer) when on the Track in competition.

Trail braking is not used every corner, its usually reserved for high speed kinks, and corners where you need extra rotation. It is not going deep into every single corner with your foot on the gas and brake as you turn letting out the brake and getting deeper into the gas as you hit corner speed/apex (that's for bikes). IRL driving cars thats just insane, but perfectly fine in a Game. Racing cars it's about turning into the corner while still on the brakes using the WT to rotate, if your sliding the rear your not doing it right.

Since ABS is usually restricted on the Track in competition IRL, set ups (IMO) should be useable with ABS 0 or they are not striving to be as real or as versatile as possible.

Using higher rear bias IRL is dangerous, for a few reasons. The higher rear bias would simply have the rear sliding around like a kid on a BMX holding his rear brake. The same happens in the game if you take off the ABS and drive as you would with ABS on & a jacked up rear bias vs low front.

IRL This would certainly lead to over-stressing the rear tires and brakes, they would eventually fail. This is not RL it's a game...

Hey it's a Game...
I don't like the lack of Fade with 0 ABS and personally feel dealing with this shortcoming is a challenge of it's own. I tune my published set ups to work also with ABS 0 to help people transitioning from ABS to no ABS. I still drive most of the time with ABS -1....

In the end it's a game, we can do what we want with the cars we accumulate in it.

Some are only out to have the fastest lap times possible, others are out for the most realistic experience as possible, the 2 are most often not one and the same.

Some people even go so far as to limit the tires they use to S type, yet still use ABS, then criticize others for using tires above S.. I don't have to understand or agree... (using an assist while criticizing others for using what is in their opinion a non realistic tire choice, is laughable) happens all the time though...

We always have to be considerate. I won't tell anybody what they are doing is wrong. If it works for you and your having fun, it's fine, I may comment to the understanding of "WHY" it is that way, but never tell you something that's working for you is "wrong" the proof is in da pudding, it's working.

In the end it's a Game

 

[Mr. CoolFiat]

Very interesting case study, sir!

 

[Stotty]

I've never tested brakes in this way... I start at 5, 5 then just adjust to how the car feels braking from high speed in to a medium speed, constant radius corner (Something like turn 1 at Deep Forest).

I'll then adjust from there either way until I find the setting that feels to allow maxium trail breaking.

I'm less bothered about absolute stopping power and more about the ability to brake long and deep in to the apex

I have no idea how GT5 is modelling the brake balance meter...

Logic would say the scales should be even front to rear. But if that was the case I have even less idea what's going on... I've always suspected the 0-10 setting is moving well inside the maximum 0-100% range available for that particular axle.

It looks from the above test that this would have to be the case... the alternative interpretation is somewhat incomprehensable... in that GT5 is using the class of tyre to define grip levels and models front and rear tyres as having the same longtitudinal grip, taking no account of weight transfer and the frotn tyres ability to take much more of the braking load.

Your ABS 0-10 10-0 could support either interpretation so some extent... though it does disprove that the scales are 0-10 actual pressure, as if it did, the car would have no brakes if you set both axles to 0.

In real life, a car will always have a significantly higher percentage of it's total brake pressure on the front. This is natural as braking create a rear -> front weigth shift, so the front tyres will be pressed harder to the road allowing more brake pressure due to increased friction.

In GT5 I see people running higher rear pressures than fronts. In real life, this would massively increase braking distances in a car with ABS, as the ABS would sense much earlier lock up on the rear and trigger the system... meaning you'd get even less braking from the front. In a car without ABS, you would have a car that felt very stable (too stable!), right up to the point the rear tyres locked... then it would get messy

So this rather makes me feel the brake balance settings have no relation to reality!

I do believe that the settings have some influence over absolute pressure... I am personally more comfortable with lower overall brake pressure as I feel I can more effectively apply small amounts of brake with these settings (plus I also feel I can trail brake more effectively).

 

[shirakawaa]

With ABS 1, the brake distribution isn't very relevant nor intuitive. It's nothing more than a hint for the infinitely more efficient than any real life system electronic brake distributor that the ABS driving assist includes.

With ABS 0 it's much more straightforward to set up, as the brake force distribution remains fixed in every situation. With no ABS, you simply have to have a higher bias on the front axle than the rear one (just try and see what happens otherwise).

This is yet another case of dubious physics/driving dynamics in GT5 due to oversimplification of real life systems (in real life there is not just one type of extremely efficient ABS. Also, no existing production ABS is able to threshold brake like those in GT5).

 

[Stotty]

This is yet another case of dubious physics/driving dynamics in GT5 due to oversimplification of real life systems (in real life there is not just one type of extremely efficient ABS. Also, no existing production ABS is able to threshold brake like those in GT5).

Absolutely 👍

You don't trail brake in the real car with the ABS triggering all the way to the apex!

 

[praiano63]

It doesn't work with the MR Lotus evora. It was perfect with the maserati ,with a break 4/10 the car eat the corners of the ring when you have a succession like the beginning of the track. But for the Lotus evora MR , the same equilibrate point ( tires when brake stay the same collor) is 6/10. But it only increase a lot of oversteer and this car don't need that.
So i will remember this when i 'll have a car that don't want to enter carving in a corner , as i like. Just put more brake value at the rear, and it will do that.

 

[Stotty]

It doesn't work with the MR Lotus evora. It was perfect with the maserati ,with a break 4/10 the car eat the corners of the ring when you have a succession like the beginning of the track. But for the Lotus evora MR , the same equilibrate point ( tires when brake stay the same collor) is 6/10. But it only increase a lot of oversteer and this car don't need that.
So i will remember this when i 'll have a car that don't want to enter carving in a corner , as i like. Just put more brake value at the rear, and it will do that.

If only all cars reacted the same way to the same changes

 

[No_OBsT33R]

I do believe that the settings have some influence over absolute pressure... I am personally more comfortable with lower overall brake pressure as I feel I can more effectively apply small amounts of brake with these settings

How so? Have you done your testing with ABS on or off?

 

[No_OBsT33R]

As far as possible in game or reality, the brakes don't get stronger, only the sensitivity to the input, in the end the tires stop the car, not the brakes. Stoping power is limited to the tires abilities.

To be clear

0 = you have to put the pedal on the floor (100% input) to get 100% potential, where 1 = 90% push of the pedals = 100% potential (anything over doesn't matter). Braking force (potential) remains the same.

Edit, just fixed the math..

Potential as the limit will always be the tires that are actually stopping the car.

The brakes do not stop the car, the tires do.

 

[Zuel]

I found that I can shorten my breaking distance by changing my spring set and the cars center of gravity by lowering the car. In some cases I can break any where from 30 to 50 feet shorter. My rule of thumb is to set the brake at 6/5 with ABS at 1 which gives a break balance of 55/45 if my math is right pending on car and engine placement.

 

[praiano63]

I found that I can shorten my breaking distance by changing my spring set and the cars center of gravity by lowering the car. In some cases I can break any where from 30 to 50 feet shorter. My rule of thumb is to set the brake at 6/5 with ABS at 1 which gives a break balance of 55/45 if my math is right pending on car and engine placement.

Shorten your braking distance is good, but better when you can associate a dynamic positive orientation to your braking also.
I was looking my pics of the Sylvia braking. It seems ,looking at the 2 black traces.
1)FRONT right
2)REAR right helping to carve into the corner external trajectory
3)FRONT right stop brake at the apex.
4)REAR right same mark at this moment is acceleraation mark, no more braking it seems.

Interresting , anybody check the same ? or i'm not right.

This correspond with my break setting 7/10. i think it match.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5320714#post5320714

 

[Z1-AV69]

I found that I can shorten my breaking distance by changing my spring set and the cars center of gravity by lowering the car. In some cases I can break any where from 30 to 50 feet shorter. My rule of thumb is to set the brake at 6/5 with ABS at 1 which gives a break balance of 55/45 if my math is right pending on car and engine placement.

Would you mind posting the car and all it's settings, if possible even the exact changes? I have seen cars where reducing the weight transfer improved the brake distance, but I wouldn't say lower & harder always means shorter braking.

 

[Zuel]

Shorten your braking distance is good, but better when you can associate a dynamic positive orientation to your braking also.
I was looking my pics of the Sylvia braking. It seems ,looking at the 2 black traces.
1)FRONT right
2)REAR right helping to carve into the corner external trajectory
3)FRONT right stop brake at the apex.
4)REAR right same mark at this moment is acceleraation mark, no more braking it seems.

Interresting , anybody check the same ? or i'm not right.

This correspond with my break setting 7/10. i think it match.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5320714#post5320714

It look like your current setup for the car is overloading the tires under braking and, the coil-overs and tires are unable to recover before entering the apex.


@ Z1


Sure I'll give the info in a few.

 

[praiano63]

It look like your current setup for the car is overloading the tires under braking and, the coil-overs and tires are unable to recover before entering the apex.


@ Z1


Sure I'll give the info in a few.

You're right, i've to check that... but the pic stay amazing like this... hahaha. Thanks for the help.

 

[Ecchi-BANZAII!!]

Most of my cars use either 2/1 or 3/2 because I never use ABS.