Britain - The Official Thread

[Robin]

The state of British politics;

Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn agree to live TV debate (but on different channels)
https://news.sky.com/story/may-and-corbyn-agree-to-live-tv-debate-but-on-different-channels-11566716

Corbyn is not even right the person to put up against her for such a debate. It should be a wholehearted Brexiteer rather than someone who at any one time doesn't know what his stance is!

 

[baldgye]

Corbyn is not even right the person to put up against her for such a debate. It should be a wholehearted Brexiteer rather than someone who at any one time doesn't know what his stance is!

But the Tories have been fighting each other in public for the last two years!

 

[Robin]

But the Tories have been fighting each other in public for the last two years!

Yeah but we need it on prime time TV

 

[Tired Tyres]

But the Tories have been fighting each other in public for the last two years!

But Labour have been fighting themselves ever since Corbyn became leader!

As for the Liberal Democrats... Oh well nevermind.

 

[baldgye]

But Labour have been fighting themselves ever since Corbyn became leader!

As for the Liberal Democrats... Oh well nevermind.

true, but Labour have been more confused than organised.. least the Tories are some what organised into two angry groups one who want Brexit and one who want no-deal


...Liberal who?

 

[Tired Tyres]

true, but Labour have been more confused than organised.. least the Tories are some what organised into two angry groups one who want Brexit and one who want no-deal


...Liberal who?

Oh you know. The party where the current and previous leader were elsewhere doing something important when there was a vote on, so nothing really important then, when only three votes seperated the wee willy winners from the sad git losers.

 

[Lizard]

We need UKIP, ehem I mean the British Union of Fascists now its gone down the road of hiring Mr Yaxley Lennon, to do the deal.

 

[baldgye]

We need UKIP, ehem I mean the British Union of Fascists now its gone down the road of hiring Mr Yaxley Lennon, to do the deal.

what about them mad footie lads? They were political and angry about, something?

 

[Tired Tyres]

We need UKIP, ehem I mean the British Union of Fascists now its gone down the road of hiring Mr Yaxley Lennon, to do the deal.

No! We need the Daily Mail to do it. They were really good at that in the 30's. They backed some fellow by the name of Adolf and some other bloke called Mosley. No not that Mosley. They do have some standards you know.

 

[Lizard]

No! We need the Daily Mail to do it. They were really good at that in the 30's. They backed some fellow by the name of Adolf and some other bloke called Mosley. No not that Mosley. They do have some standards you know.

I know, why support a guy who dresses as a Nazi when you can get the original?

 

[Liquid]

Would be nice for Plaid and the SNP to be able plead their case and voice their opinions.

 

[Liquid]

sob story in the local rag

Custom QI Klaxon Alert



And to the surprise of no-one, like me the public aren't overly sympathetic.

I wonder if the moped thugs feel the same empathy for their victims.... The ones with acid thrown in their faces. The ones stabbed or hit with hammers. The ones who are now too scared to walk in the street. The ones who've lost beloved, personal possessions? I doubt it

Hope it was painful.

Good! Reverse over them too! C****

Although this one was my favourite:

Break the law the law break you - sounds fair to me

I do wish to point out though that I don't actively wish to see people being battered and having bones broken in the course of a police pursuit but if you have committed a crime and are evading the police in a chase, you should be prepared to accept the responsibility of doing so. There's no Well Done sticker at the end of it.

 

[adamp93]

I do wish to point out though that I don't actively wish to see people being battered and having bones broken in the course of a police pursuit but if you have committed a crime and are evading the police in a chase, you should be prepared to accept the responsibility of doing so. There's no Well Done sticker at the end of it.

If they get their skin burned off from sliding on the road it's their own fault for not wearing the right protection. It's difficult to put blame anywhere other than the criminals here.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I do wish to point out though that I don't actively wish to see people being battered and having bones broken in the course of a police pursuit but if you have committed a crime and are evading the police in a chase, you should be prepared to accept the responsibility of doing so. There's no Well Done sticker at the end of it.

Quite. Otherwise police dogs wouldn't be a (ferociously effective) thing. Police use the means at their disposal to stop crime and to prevent use of the means of further crime. Whether that comes courtesy of Jet's fangs or the rapidly-approaching bumper of a marked BMW makes no difference to me.

 

[Lizard]

Really? Mog and Bojo are just a little bit evil. Abbott is genuinely knock on wood.

I wouldn't call them evil, more ignorant as to what the life of the common person is like. I don't think they are deliberately evil.

 

[Imari]

My stance is that in an idea world the police never need to chase these drivers in the first place because they know who they are and where they'll be going.

They do? A rider on a stolen bike with a helmet on, and they somehow know both who they are and where they're going?

Could you share how this magic trick is performed with the rest of us? I don't get it.

...personally I'm more interested in the police working to prevent crimes rather than reacting to them...

Sure, but they can't just ignore crimes in progress. Preventing rape is great, but the police aren't going to ignore cries for help just because you're already bent over a dumpster. Well, they shouldn't. Some places might (and lots of places are apparently more than capable of ignoring reports after the fact) but I'd argue that that's poor policing rather than something to aspire to.

 

[TenEightyOne]

They do? A rider on a stolen bike with a helmet on, and they somehow know both who they are and where they're going?

Could you share how this magic trick is performed with the rest of us? I don't get it.

CCTV is absolutely everywhere, observations from the control rooms are often the catalyst for police arriving in an area. At that point the Road Policing units have a description of a bike and quite probably a registration number. If a bike fails to stop then it's a fair presumption in the current climate that it needs to be stopped. If the riders take their helmets off then there's also a chance of IDing them - and they do take them off as until recently it was commonly believed that the police wouldn't chase a helmet-less rider. Not so any more.

 

[Northstar]

CCTV is absolutely everywhere, observations from the control rooms are often the catalyst for police arriving in an area. At that point the Road Policing units have a description of a bike and quite probably a registration number. If a bike fails to stop then it's a fair presumption in the current climate that it needs to be stopped. If the riders take their helmets off then there's also a chance of IDing them - and they do take them off as until recently it was commonly believed that the police wouldn't chase a helmet-less rider. Not so any more.

So what happens when they catch on and just leave their helmet on until they get somewhere that they know doesn't have cameras?

 

[Imari]

CCTV is absolutely everywhere, observations from the control rooms are often the catalyst for police arriving in an area. At that point the Road Policing units have a description of a bike and quite probably a registration number. If a bike fails to stop then it's a fair presumption in the current climate that it needs to be stopped. If the riders take their helmets off then there's also a chance of IDing them - and they do take them off as until recently it was commonly believed that the police wouldn't chase a helmet-less rider. Not so any more.

But a description of the bike and rego doesn't help them know where it's going, it's stolen. It just tells them where it probably came from. It'll help them identify it if they ever find it again though.

I agree that if a bike fails to stop then that's fair presumption that it should probably be stopped. But nothing you've said demonstrates to me that the police could let the bike go instead of stopping it because they know who is riding it and where it's going. Depending on what camera footage exists and how dumb the perp is, they might be able to have a decent guess, but I'd suggest it's far from a sure thing. Far enough from a sure thing that an aggressive stop is the better choice if it can be done without injury to bystanders.

 

[TenEightyOne]

But a description of the bike and rego doesn't help them know where it's going, it's stolen.

Once you have the registration number then you have an immediate picture of its movements. If the plate is changed then it may take some time for the police to catch on (unless the rider is stupid and uses something that doesn't match the bike), but most seem to use the bikes for a short time and then ditch them.

The presumption that the bike will be used in more crime is a very reasonable one. In many places, particularly London, illegally operated mopeds are used for lots of robberies. If the bike is being ridden illegally (stolen, uninsured, untaxed, unregistered, unlicensed rider etc.) then the police already have grounds to stop it. If it fails to stop then they're entitled to use whatever tactics are necessary to do so against the background of rising moped crime.

But nothing you've said demonstrates to me that the police could let the bike go instead of stopping it because they know who is riding it and where it's going.

No, I don't think I'm arguing that they should let it go.

So what happens when they catch on and just leave their helmet on until they get somewhere that they know doesn't have cameras?

Mopeds get away all the time, although getting through the 500,000 cameras in London unnoticed is quite a tall order. If they leave their helmets on then see above, the police car already knows if the plate matches the bike and if there are other reasons why it shouldn't be ridden.

 

[baldgye]

So, the only way police could know who committed the crimes, was to be able to identify them face-to-face... not by, I don’t know, knowing the families of these kids, knowing they gangs and groups... Knowing the areas where they came from?

But I guess any aspersions of an ideal way to deal with anything, have to be taken literally at this point.

 

[Tired Tyres]

But a description of the bike and rego doesn't help them know where it's going, it's stolen. It just tells them where it probably came from. It'll help them identify it if they ever find it again though.

I agree that if a bike fails to stop then that's fair presumption that it should probably be stopped. But nothing you've said demonstrates to me that the police could let the bike go instead of stopping it because they know who is riding it and where it's going. Depending on what camera footage exists and how dumb the perp is, they might be able to have a decent guess, but I'd suggest it's far from a sure thing. Far enough from a sure thing that an aggressive stop is the better choice if it can be done without injury to bystanders.

They steal the bikes and go off on whatever crime spree they stole the bike for in the first place. The owner reports it stolen plus they get witness/victim reports. They get the updates on the radio. How much more information do you think they need?

 

[Northstar]

although getting through the 500,000 cameras in London unnoticed is quite a tall order.

How many people are watching those cameras at any given time?

I don’t know, knowing the families of these kids, knowing they gangs and groups... Knowing the areas where they came from?

How on earth are they supposed to know their families and friendship circles? Are you guys secretly chipped over there or something?

 

[TenEightyOne]

How many people are watching those cameras at any given time?

I don't know... but it doesn't take a person to follow a vehicle, ID faces or look up crimes and traffic violations. I guess in all a thousand or so?

 

[Northstar]

I don't know... but it doesn't take a person to follow a vehicle, ID faces or look up crimes and traffic violations.

How does is ID faces if they're wearing a helmet?

I'm not sure what standard of evidence is required in the UK, but it seems like solely relying on cameras for this type of thing isn't the best idea if you actually want to convict people.

 

[Dotini]

How does is ID faces if they're wearing a helmet?

I'm not sure what standard of evidence is required in the UK, but it seems like solely relying on cameras for this type of thing isn't the best idea if you actually want to convict people.

I'm not so sure people should be convicted. Courts and prisons are expensive. Perhaps it is better for the state to coerce and intimidate people into the desired behaviors?

 

[TenEightyOne]

How does is ID faces if they're wearing a helmet?

I'm not sure what standard of evidence is required in the UK, but it seems like solely relying on cameras for this type of thing isn't the best idea if you actually want to convict people.

It can't ID helmeted faces, I don't think I said it could. You asked how many people were watching the cameras and I pointed out that you don't need people to watch all of them in order to gather information. I'm sure there are UK users on here who've had a traffic violation ticket without a human being involved. Handing out tickets isn't the only use for those ANPR and vehicle recognition systems.

 

[Imari]

How much more information do you think they need?

I guess it depends if you think the idea of police is to prevent or stop crimes in progress, or just watch it happen and clean up afterwards.

Perhaps there's a somewhat different perception of what "policing" entails between the UK and Australia.

If it fails to stop then they're entitled to use whatever tactics are necessary to do so against the background of rising moped crime.

Quite. And the original post I replied to argued against that.

So, the only way police could know who committed the crimes, was to be able to identify them face-to-face... not by, I don’t know, knowing the families of these kids, knowing they gangs and groups... Knowing the areas where they came from?

But I guess any aspersions of an ideal way to deal with anything, have to be taken literally at this point.

How do you know who their families are off seeing them on CCTV? Even if you know gangs and groups, how do you know which one did it? How does knowing which area they came from tell you who did it? How do you get from "rider on a stolen blue moped going down Blunderthorpe Avenue" to all this information?

You're just lining up an investigation for yourself because you decided to ignore an active crime in progress. Face to face is not the only way, but it's by far the easiest, the most effective and least prone to error.

 

[baldgye]

How do you know who their families are off seeing them on CCTV? Even if you know gangs and groups, how do you know which one did it? How does knowing which area they came from tell you who did it? How do you get from "rider on a stolen blue moped going down Blunderthorpe Avenue" to all this information?

You're just lining up an investigation for yourself because you decided to ignore an active crime in progress. Face to face is not the only way, but it's by far the easiest, the most effective and least prone to error.

What you’ve failed to do is to read what I said originally and the link I later provided in the same thread.
In an ideal world the knocking over of moped riders wouldn’t be necessary.
This move by the police comes off massive cuts to U.K. policing and was forewarned to the then Home Secretary and now Prime Minister by someone who was praised for policing as I’ve alluded to. He warned that the cuts in policing that she was planning to do and was doing at that time, and the way the police force was adapting to these changes in funded would result in serious consequences.

While I’m not calling for the running over of moped riders to be banned, what I am after is a better funded and more effective police force.

But seeing as you offering up statistics (something I asked for in one of my posts) I’d like to see them. Specially relating to this example of apprehending moped riders.

 

[Northstar]

It can't ID helmeted faces,

So how would it prove that someone stole the bike? Surely you guys have due process over there?

I don't think I said it could. You asked how many people were watching the cameras and I pointed out that you don't need people to watch all of them in order to gather information.

I'm just trying to figure out how cameras are going to do much good while it's still going on. By the time you track down someone that was wearing a helmet the whole time by using cameras it would seem like a very weak case unless they were stupid enough to still be in possession of the bike.

I'm sure there are UK users on here who've had a traffic violation ticket without a human being involved.

Again though, how will they actually help convict someone if they can't even identify them? This is an issue that's come up stateside and several states have banned their use because of it.