Bruno Senna vs. Pastor Maldonado

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This topic seems to invade just about every F1 race topic this year - with those who hate Maldonado's childish stupidity pitched against those who love his cavalier speed and those who detest Senna's lack of qualifying pace agin those who enjoy his consistency and reliability - as Valteri Bottas waits in the wings for an eagerly-anticipated vacant seat at Williams.

So I thought I'd plonk this thread here to focus the fighting adult discussions.

Of course, I've also done what I always do and made up some statistics for the debate...

Code: 
2012 Season
Maldonado
Results	13†	19†	8	Ret	1	Ret	13	12	16	15	13	Ret	11	Ret
Qualy	8	11	13	17	1	9	17	3	7	6	8	3	12	2
Start	8	11	13	21	1	24	22	3	7	5	8	6	22	2
Change	-5	-8	+5	-2	0	+1	+9	-9	-9	-10	-5	-14	+11	-20
FATC		4	15					15	6		8

Senna
Results	16†	6 	7 	22† 	Ret 	10 	17 	10 	9 	17 	7 	12	10	18†
Qualy	14	13	14	15	17	14	16	14	15	16	9	17	14	18
Start	14	13	14	15	17	13	16	14	13	14	9	17	13	22
Change	+2	+7	+7	-7	-6	+3	-1	+4	+4	-3	-2	+5	+3	+4
FATC	8						4			6	
	AUS	MAL	CHN	BAH	ESP	MON	CAN	EUR	GBR	DEU	HUN	BEL	ITA	SIN

† represents a non-race distance but classified finish

Penalties
Maldonado - BAH (-5; gearbox); MON (-15; collision, gearbox); CAN (-5; gearbox); EUR (+20s; collision) BEL (-3; impeding); ITA (-10; collision, jump start)
Senna - EUR (drive-through; collision); SIN (-5; gearbox)

Retirements
Mal - BHR - Puncture; MON – Collision, fault; BEL – Collision, fault; SIN - Hydraulics
Sen - ESP – Collision, non-fault

Non-finishes
Mal - AUS – Crash (fault); MAL – Mechanical (engine)
Sen - AUS – Collision (50:50); BHR – Mechanical (unspecified); SIN - Gearbox

I've compared these numbers in just about every meaningful way I can manage (inferior stat marked in red)...

Finishes per race entered
Senna - 0.83
Maldonado - 0.67

Classified finishes per race entered
Senna - 0.92
Maldonado - 0.75

Points finishes per race entered
Senna - 0.50
Maldonado - 0.17

Points finishes per race finished
Senna - 0.66
Maldonado - 0.38

Points per race entered
Senna - 2.00
Maldonado - 2.41

Points per race finished
Senna - 2.40
Maldonado - 3.63

Retirements per race entered
Senna - 0.08
Maldonado - 0.25

At fault race retirements per race entered
Senna - 0.00
Maldonado - 0.17

Average classifed position per race entered
Senna - 14.58
Maldonado - 16.16

FATC points
Senna - 18
Maldonado - 48

Average qualifying position (without penalties)
Senna - 14.50
Maldonado - 8.58

Average starting position (with penalties)
Senna - 14.08
Maldonado - 10.75

Q3 percentage
Senna - 0.13
Maldonado - 0.67

Q2 percentage
Senna - 1.00
Maldonado - 1.00

Average position change per race (start to flag)
Senna - +1.08
Maldonado - -3.91

Average position change per race (start to flag), race distance only
Senna - +2.00
Maldonado - -1.58

Head-to-Head Qualifying
Senna 2:10 Maldonado

Head-to-Head Race Results
Senna 8:4 Maldonado

Head-to-Head Race Results (race distance only)
Senna 4:2 Maldonado

Nineteen stats there, twelve in Senna's favour, six in Maldonado's and one tied. Maldonado gets the nod for best race result and highest total points (12:8) too, while Senna gets the "fewest penalties" one (13:9) - Maldonado's lost an incredible 38 grid slots in total (more than three PER RACE!) and taken a 20s race penalty to Senna's single drive-through.

Though I'm sure there's more numbers to crunch and have fun with, but the above rather seems to suggest that Maldonado is Saturday's man and, save one significant occasion, Senna is Sunday's - after Maldonado's many, many grid penalties are taken into account.


So, which driver would you chop?
 
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Tricky one. Consistency is the buzz-word here.

Can't I give them both the chop?
 
For the sake of not wanting to feel embarrassed when one of my cars get on screen or when people talk about one of my drivers, I'd like to show Maldonado the door.

Yes, Maldonado brings the money and has the greater raw speed. But racecraft? There's none with Maldonado.
 
Any stats of finances they bring to Williams?

I think they're both a bit mince. To be Frank (pun intended) I'd drop Senna, get Bottas in with Maldonado. I'd give Maldonado to the end of the year to get some more results, then chuck him too if he hadn't improved. It would be a lot of money to lose though...
 
Famine
as Valteri Bottas waits in the wings
Click to expand...


It's Valtteri! :sly:

And I'd drop both, as Senna can't get competent results with a car that should be capable of getting points pretty much all the time, and Maldonado wastes so many good chances with overly aggressive driving. Guy might have one win, but what else? An 8th place?
 
I'd chop Senna. While statistics appear to be in his favor, Maldonado has showed what the car is capable of and has even delivered on one occasion. Maldonado has serious speed, but stupid accidents and penalties have harmed him. If he can reign in the stupidity, he will be a very fast driver. Senna otoh, has just been decidedly average. While he gets in fewer accidents, he has never looked like delivering the kind of results that Maldonado has.

It comes down to a choice between a very quick, ill tempered, clumsy driver versus one who is a nice guy, but too slow for his own good. I'd go with Pastor. Better to have a fast driver who is (very) rough around the edges than a guy who doesn't have the speed.
 
As much as I hate to say it, I'd get rid of Senna just because I'd rather try and tame a fast driver than teach a driver to be fast.

Though what I still don't get about this situation is that Senna's problem last year and in 2010 wasn't speed but consistency in his speed. Now its the opposite, even at Hungary his speed was still off Maldonado, but he managed to run a solid qualifying and race to keep ahead of him.

Bottas would hopefully prove to be consistent and fast to cover Maldonado's weaknesses.
 
It depends on whether Maldonado's sponsors pay for the damage he does to his car.
 
Good idea. I expect to see prisonermonkeys as the top poster.

As for getting rid of one of them, that's tough. If getting rid of Ginsters means he will never race in F1 again, then him.
 
As above. I'm torn. I'm not entirely convinced Senna is entirely speed-free, but Maldonado has certainly been quicker this year. Perhaps each deserves another year to see if any full decision can be made.

Until then, I'd say, sadly, Senna. Maldonado is a complete liability but he has got one race win. He doesn't need chucking out of the sport for good, but he certainly needs a kick up the arse to try and get him to behave a bit.
 
F1 fan
It comes down to a choice between a very quick, ill tempered, clumsy driver versus one who is a nice guy, but too slow for his own good. I'd go with Pastor. Better to have a fast driver who is (very) rough around the edges than a guy who doesn't have the speed.
Click to expand...

Frank and Patrick have been in the game long enough to know whether it's more likely to tame a reckless driver, than it is to coax a more cautious driver to get consistantly good results. Maldonardo has the better pedigree if you take other championships into consideration, but i think it ultimately comes down to who brings the most money to the team, especially with Williams not really having a main non-driver dependant sponsor.
 
Maldonado clearly finds speed over a single lap which Senna can't currently match, but he does have not only a clumsy streak, but a nasty streak about him (deliberately driving into Hamilton at Spa '11, Perez at Monaco '12), which means I really don't like him.

I would give Senna more time to prove himself. Remember that Maldonado was pretty average (in my eyes, at least) last year (yes, the car was awful, but he didn't make a fool out of Rubens, despite the fact he was driving at the ripe old age of 76)

How favourably has Bottas compared to the other two in the FP1 sessions he's driven in?
 
Maldonado needs to be more cautious, Senna needs to be less cautious.

But Maldonado is some talent, if he stopped driving like an idiot he could be a future champ, him, Perez, Grosjean and Kobayashi are the only 'new' drivers I can realistically see becoming champion.
 
Tough decision. But I would chop Senna. In a long run Maldonado is going to deliver more top results for Williams than Senna. Of course if he learns how to overtake cleanly.
 
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Senna.

But you all saw that coming, right?

I agree with Ardius on this one - it's easier to teach a driver to be smarter than it is to be faster. Renault did it with Vitaly Petrov between 2010 and 2011, and I think that if Williams can hammer that into Maldonado, then he'll go a long way.
 
It is a sad situation for Williams when they have to rely on second rate drivers who can bring in the cash now that they finally have a decent car. With good drivers they would have scored a lot more points. I don't know much about Bottas really but I have a feeling he is better than both. They should have kept Rubens.
 
Personally i'd get rid of Pastor,

Yes he is the faster but imo he is just to much of a liability, as 1 or 2 others have mentioned he has been nasty on purpose in the past. That in it's self can be more negitive on the team than somebody who might not win but brings home regular points which also brings in money from external sponsers.

It is a tough choice but I reckon Williams could do quite well with Heikki and Bruno.......
 
Name another driver on the grid who statistically retires from 1 in 4 races... Bruno though slower and whilst I agree with difficuly in making him faster, is bringing in consistent points. There you then have the team's baseline performance...
 
Ardius
...I'd get rid of Senna just because I'd rather try and tame a fast driver than teach a driver to be fast.
Click to expand...

QFTT.

I'm a fan of neither, but Ginster's always looks the more likely of the two to deliver a good result.
 
pezzarinho17
Name another driver on the grid who statistically retires from 1 in 4 races...
Click to expand...

It's not that bad...

schumacher_1639368c.jpg


:p
 
Famine
Allen missed the entire 1997 season then?
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You mean, that season where he was ITV's chief pit lane reporter?

And he probably missed Barrichello's exclusion from the 2008 Australian Grand Prix for ignoring a red light at the pit exit.
 
There's been a few of those though - that's a technical offence rather than a major driving offence.

Even so, I remember Takuma Sato disqualified from the 2005 Japanese Grand Prix for causing a collision with Jarno Trulli...
 
Watching some of the GP2 / GP3 collisions, this is where the action starts. They get away with it because it is a "junior" series, but the learning needs to begin somewhere.
 
Famine
There's been a few of those though - that's a technical offence rather than a major driving offence.

Even so, I remember Takuma Sato disqualified from the 2005 Japanese Grand Prix for causing a collision with Jarno Trulli...
Click to expand...

To be fair, those and the Schumacher/97 thing were all retrospectively applied. Grosjean may be the first since 94 to be banned from a subsequent race, just as Schuey was in 94 after the FIA found technical irregularities with the Benetton.
 
Pastor may be bringing in more money but he writes his car off half the time :D I doubt Pastor will learn from his mistakes he's 27 and for as long as I can remember he has been too aggressive, I'd say keep Senna.
 

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