Bruno Senna vs. Pastor Maldonado

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HeXoSKEL3t0n
No need to be so harsh on Senna...

After all, he has still managed to get into F1(even though he isn't doing too well, sadly), as compared to us lowly mortals hanging around in an Internet forum, with not much credible (or maybe even no) achievements in any form of international Motorsport.

We aren't in a good position to judge any of these drivers' capabilities to be honest...
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Senna is a #2 driver that also has to share his car in the 1st free practice of every race. Considering that and his standings in the championship, I think he is not doing that bad. I see severall people saying let Bottas have the car for a whole event. I say let Senna have his car for the whole of the weekends, and in the same conditions as Pastor. Then compare...

As for Pastor I'm happy he made second and I honestly expect him to make a decent start. It's a long straight run into T1...
 
hornet_burnout
Senna is a #2 driver that also has to share his car in the 1st free practice of every race. Considering that and his standings in the championship, I think he is not doing that bad. I see severall people saying let Bottas have the car for a whole event. I say let Senna have his car for the whole of the weekends, and in the same conditions as Pastor. Then compare...
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Nope. He doesn't have to share his car on street circuits.

EDIT: http://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/249760405143027712

From @AussieGrit, on starting beside @RGrosjean: "He knows I’ve got a good right hook on me, so he’ll stay away from me"
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Championship points:

Pastor: 0 - 0 - 4 - 0 - 25 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 Total: 29
Senna: 0 - 8 - 6 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 6 - 0 - 1 Total: 25

Positioned 16th, just behind his teammate in 15th.

Yeah... doing a terrible job, for a #2.
 
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Well, looking at that points outlay, Senna would be a better driver for Williams than Pastor.

I mean, he brings the points back home on a much more consistent basis.

Although hitting the wall isn't ideal.

That first corner will be interesting. I think Pastor probably will get some strange ideas and might cut a corner or force a driver to cut the corner for safety reasons. Unless someone does a massive KERS start and rockets up the inside.
 
Submerged
I mean, he brings the points back home on a much more consistent basis.
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He only brings in minor points.

Bruno Senna is sensible, but slow. Pastor Maldonado is fast, but reckless. As Ardius said a few weeks ago, it's easier to teach a driver to be sensible than it is to teach him to be fast.
 
If I was a team manager I would get Maldonado over Senna anytime. I prefer a driver that is capable of getting a win than someone that finish regulary 8 to 12th. It means the raw speed is there, just need to tame the driver a bit which is easier than learning how to go half a second faster.
 
hornet_burnout
Maybe he could be half a second faster if he had the same hardware, and team support, and track time?
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Apparently I read in a few articles that he has been struggling to find the optimum setup in these recent races, what you suggested may have been the cause of that.
 
In F1, points equals money, so a consistent point scorer would be better for the team, regardless of minor or major points. If you had a driver that had two fantastic races and then lots of DNF which meant that you had to spend a lot of money repairing/sorting out/understanding why things went wrong, wouldn't that just cost the team a LOT more money than a driver who drives consistently, has a consistent pattern and is able to drive within the car's capabilities?

Its a difficult thing of either spending lots of money to fix problems, or spending lots of money for the future and not fix the present problem caused by driver errors.

Someone suggested that Pastor's sponsors pay for the car's damages. I think Pastor really should pay for those damages, as most of them come from poor judgement of situations. If he knows he has to pay for things out of his own money, then he wouldn't quite be so bone-headedly stupid at times.

A team cannot just have a live-wire that just influenced by emotions on the track nowadays.
 
To be clear, I like both drivers alike. Which is not thatmuch, but I have no pet hate either.


But in all fairness both drivers are performing 'below par'. One in consistency, the other in qualifying pace. The latter being IMO less of a driver fault, considering his nr2 status and all stated before.
 
Pastor Maldonado has much, much more potential than Bruno Senna. If you had to drop one of them based on that reason alone, it's very clear.
 
prisonermonkeys
He has hit the same wall three times this weekend, and qualified seventeenth while his team-mate is on the front row.

I think that says everything that needs to be said.
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You mean the same walls we've seen many drivers come close to and succeed in hitting all weekend? But it's only absolutely boneheaded and ridiculous when Bruno Senna is involved.

He looked competitive in FP3, and I'm sure he would have been up there too, if it weren't for hitting the wall. The damage was the only reason he qualified 17th.

prisonermonkeys
He only brings in minor points.

Bruno Senna is sensible, but slow. Pastor Maldonado is fast, but reckless. As Ardius said a few weeks ago, it's easier to teach a driver to be sensible than it is to teach him to be fast.
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The crucial difference between the two drivers is that one crashes in practice and qualifying sessions, while the other makes a mess of almost every race. Teaching a slow dog to be fast is seeming to be a much better thing to do than teaching a vicious dog to be gentle right about now.

Don't you ever think for a second that the fact that Bottas gets to drive every FP1, is having a negative effect on Senna's performance?
 
Peter.
Don't you ever think for a second that the fact that Bottas gets to drive every FP1, is having a negative effect on Senna's performance?
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If Senna is so poor that he needs an extra hour and a half in the car to prepare for the race, he has no business being in Formula 1. Especially considering that most of the first practice session is given over to testing the limits of the tyres, since the teams can't work on stratgy without knowing what kind of life the tyres have or the kind of feedback they get.
 
To be honest, wasn't that impressed by Senna this weekend. Maldonado did everything right, only to be let down by the car. This is Crashtor, on one of the tightest circuits on the schedule, up alongside Hamilton, getting passed by Vettel and Button, regaining his composure and fighting back, having a close race with Alonso, defending without doing anything illegal... or crashing... then being let down by a hydraulic failure.

Granted, Senna managed to shuffle his way up to 8th before being overtaken, overtaken again and retiring, but that's more in the nature of how chaotic the race back there was than anything else.

In a car that's as fast as Maldonado is showing it can be, Senna's performance is pretty uninspired.

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Maldonado seems to be maturing, and is driving the balls off his car. Senna still makes little mistakes like hitting the wall here... and... oops... was that Massa? And he doesn't seem to be getting any faster. Which one are you going to keep?

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Granted, Senna loses FP1... but that's not a very good excuse for having your mind out of the game. I'm not rabidly anti-Senna, but I don't see him as being a good bet for the future of the team.
 
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prisonermonkeys
If Senna is so poor that he needs an extra hour and a half in the car to prepare for the race, he has no business being in Formula 1.
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This coming from a seasoned veteran who know's the implications of losing track time on a circuit with unknown track conditions, tyre deg patterns and general feel? You make these assertions as if you have been there and done that and speak from some position of dead-cert knowledge.


niky

Maldonado seems to be maturing, and is driving the balls off his car. Senna still makes little mistakes like hitting the wall here... and... oops... was that Massa? And he doesn't seem to be getting any faster. Which one are you going to keep?
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Yea, he did well not to come to grief with anybody in a congested first lap, but then again, did bottle it and drop 2 places in 2 corners.

One race where he races like everyone else - that is, doesn't contact someone - is a great step, but it is a bit premature to be saying he is maturing. No more incidents in the next 6 races maybe, but one swallow doesn't a summer make.
 
Mike Rotch
This coming from a seasoned veteran who know's the implications of losing track time on a circuit with unknown track conditions, tyre deg patterns and general feel? You make these assertions as if you have been there and done that and speak from some position of dead-cert knowledge.
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Senna should be a seasoned veteran. Most of the circuits used by Formula 1 are circuits that he has already raced on, and therefore should know. Bottas gets 15 Friday sessions this year; Senna gets to keep the car to himself for the other five - and those five are circuits like Singapore, that he would not normally have the opportunity to drive, or like Austin, which is new.

Not being able to take part in the first practice session does hurt Senna - but nowhere near as much as some people would have us believe. He is not suddenly going to be able to match Pastor Maldonado simply by having the car to himself for the whole weekend.
 
prisonermonkeys
Senna should be a seasoned veteran. Most of the circuits used by Formula 1 are circuits that he has already raced on, and therefore should know. Bottas gets 15 Friday sessions this year; Senna gets to keep the car to himself for the other five - and those five are circuits like Singapore, that he would not normally have the opportunity to drive, or like Austin, which is new.

Not being able to take part in the first practice session does hurt Senna - but nowhere near as much as some people would have us believe. He is not suddenly going to be able to match Pastor Maldonado simply by having the car to himself for the whole weekend.
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make senna #1 driver with all 3 practice sessions and he'll score even more points and surpass maldonado
 
Peter.
You mean the same walls we've seen many drivers come close to and succeed in hitting all weekend? But it's only absolutely boneheaded and ridiculous when Bruno Senna is involved.
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Come on Peter. He hit it three times.

Peter.
He looked competitive in FP3, and I'm sure he would have been up there too, if it weren't for hitting the wall. The damage was the only reason he qualified 17th.
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We don't know that for sure. It's speculation. All we can go on are facts.

bzking23
make senna #1 driver with all 3 practice sessions and he'll score even more points and surpass maldonado
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See above.
 
Mike Rotch
No more incidents in the next 6 races maybe, but one swallow doesn't a summer make.
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Spitz or swallows? :D Never can decide. :lol:

It's not definitive, but it's a good sign. If he gets through the rest of the season with no issue, then maybe he's grown up a bit. Though I do wish they'd given him a harsher penalty last time than a simple x place penalty... and maybe done it a few races earlier.
 
Senna hasn't raced in a competitive F1 car for a long period of time. He is still finding his feet. Maybe he's not as fast as Pastor, but he is more consistent in scoring. Williams needs points. And for all the crap he gets for hitting that same single wall in Singapore, how many walls and barriers and cars has Maldonado hit this season? Lets see how they get on the rest of this and next season (I hope they retain both of them).
 
freshseth83
Senna hasn't raced in a competitive F1 car for a long period of time. He is still finding his feet.
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Senna is now in his third season of Formula 1. He's really only just started it, because he did half a year with Renault in 2011.

Now, I don't know about you, but to me, a guy who is "still finding his feet" after two full years of competition has no business being in Formula 1.

freshseth83
Maybe he's not as fast as Pastor, but he is more consistent in scoring.
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His best result is sixth - in a car that can win races.

And his best qualifying performance was ninth - in a car that can be on the front row.

freshseth83
And for all the crap he gets for hitting that same single wall in Singapore, how many walls and barriers and cars has Maldonado hit this season?
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I'm pretty sure the answer to that question is one, which was in Australia. He came close in Canada, but kept it off the wall.

Furthermore, let me answer your question with a question of my own: before Singapore, when was the last time a driver hit the same wall three times over the course of a Grand Prix weekend?
 
Well, to be fair... when most drivers hit a wall, they make sure to hit it hard enough so they don't get a second chance at hitting it again.
 
niky
To be honest, wasn't that impressed by Senna this weekend. Maldonado did everything right, only to be let down by the car. This is Crashtor, on one of the tightest circuits on the schedule, up alongside Hamilton, getting passed by Vettel and Button, regaining his composure and fighting back, having a close race with Alonso, defending without doing anything illegal... or crashing... then being let down by a hydraulic failure.
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Agreed. Maldonado has shown that when he isn't being a complete prat, he still has talent. The battle with Alonso was great fun to watch.

prisonermonkeys
Furthermore, let me answer your question with a question of my own: before Singapore, when was the last time a driver hit the same wall three times over the course of a Grand Prix weekend?
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Well Massa managed to break the same wheel on the same bit of circuit (one of the "bananas") in two different sessions at I think India last year, and he should certainly know better than Senna. And Schumacher has made some absolute rookie mistakes over the last few years... and we all know what he's capable of.

I think Senna's problem is in his head. A bit like Massa, actually. Senna has been fast in previous formulae and although that doesn't always translate to F1, there's no good reason why he can't be fast in F1... but I think there's more to his average pace than simply being slow. Perhaps the team environment, perhaps having a hot-headed driver like Maldonado as a team mate, or perhaps his driving style just doesn't suit the car.

There's no such thing as a slow F1 driver (well... maybe Taki Inoue...) but it's perfectly possible for a driver to not be able to give his best - and that's what I see happening with Senna. How many chances he deserves to prove that I'm not sure, but I don't see it as being a speed problem.
 
prisonermonkeys
Furthermore, let me answer your question with a question of my own: before Singapore, when was the last time a driver hit the same wall three times over the course of a Grand Prix weekend?
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I thought it was the same wall twice, and a different wall for the other.
 
prisonermonkeys
Senna is now in his third season of Formula 1. He's really only just started it, because he did half a year with Renault in 2011.

Now, I don't know about you, but to me, a guy who is "still finding his feet" after two full years of competition has no business being in Formula 1.


His best result is sixth - in a car that can win races.

And his best qualifying performance was ninth - in a car that can be on the front row.
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Point 1: Its not really his 3rd season, yes, it his 3rd season of involvement, season 1 was a HRT, he did 8 races in a car that underwent a huge halfway change so it would stop exploding and is currently 3/4 of the way through his first full season in a competitive car.

Point 2: Best result is sixth in a car that one once, which would not have won had Hamilton not had a penalty.

Point 3: Front row yes, with an overly aggressive driver who hasn't scored points for nearly 10 races.

Lets face facts, Senna WILL finish ahead of Maldonado in the championship because Pasta is completely incapable of actually finishing races.

Wow Pasta one a race, good on him, Hamilton would have won it from 1st as well had he not had a penalty. Put Senna on row 1 and he would win too at Catalunya.
 
I'm amazed that some people are still claiming that Pastor's win in Spain was a fluke. Love him or hate him, he has some serious speed. Let's not forget that he didn't bottle it despite the presence of Fernando Alonso behind him. The simple fact of the matter is that Pastor is genuinely quick. Good drivers improve as they get older and his performance at the weekend was impressive.

I know that he has messed up plenty of opportunities but at least he has put himself in a good position in the first place. If he can work on his consistency and tame the recklessness, he'll win multiple Grand Prix. I doubt he'll ever be consistent enough to challenge for the championship, but he has great potential. I don't see the same potential in Bruno. Neither driver is perfect but I'd take Pastor any day.
 
F1 fan
Neither driver is perfect but I'd take Pastor any day.
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Quoted for the truth.

Senna just doesn't look like he can or will be able to make the step up and bring some serious speed to his game.
 

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