Buttkicker Options - Experience Needed

[readyfe]

Hi All,

New to this forum but not to racing and am taking my simulation to the next level.

I currently have a Fanatec GT2 & Clubsport Pedals running off the Rennsport Wheel Stand. Does the job but I'm ready for more. I just received my new T500RS and will be ordering the F1 Add On soon.

I have now ordered a GamePod GT2 Evo with Display Mount and PC/PS3 Holder. My aim to have this unit as one and completely independent of anything external except the Power Cable. The aim is to try some spring loaded casters or lockable heavy duty ones to make it moveable but then stable once I'm in.

So while I'm not mega rich and do not have unlimited budget, I don't mind spending on my one hobby that keeps me home (keeps wife happy) which takes me to the sound experience. I use the Turtle Beach PX5 for playing and chat so the Rumble effects is all I'm after.

Now that you have some background on what I'm doing, can someone assist with what the difference would be between ButtKicker Simulation Kit and ButtKicker mini Power Amplifier with one ButtKicker mini LFE.

Also, I'd love to run two transducers for left and right feel free to make recommendations. I understand there may be cheaper options which I'm happy to hear but to have it small (amp mount under seat or behind screen) with the rig being all-in-one is key.

LATEST UPDATES:

Well it's changed from being a self sufficient all in one to a full scale 5.1ch speaker set up and dedicated AV Rack running by it's side:

1 x GamePod EVO PRO (carbon firbre seat) with Thrustmaster T500 F1
1 x Buttkicker Home Theatre Wireless Kit for the LFE signal
2 x Buttkicker Mini LFE for Left & Right Tactile.
1 x Behringer A500 Stereo Amplifier & Behringer FBQ1502 Equaliser.
1 x 720p HDMI Projector and 90" Screen.

So much for keeping it all in one.

Also, this forum topic has grown really into a discussion around Tactile Transducers, Isolation, mounting, and like the title "experience needed" we are really getting it here. There are also discussions around related mods for immersion which is great.

So much information here that has really helped me go from the "i would like to have a bit of rumble" to really finding out how I can get so much more immersion and enjoy the sim experience.



Thanks..

fred.e

 

[VINCE__]

I have 2 BKG2's mounted to my GP rig. Using the rumble kit from GP. However the mounting poles have both broke at the welds. I had to redo the welds and they work well now. If you are just after the L/R rumble sensation the the Gamer2's work great. If you go with GP's rumble kit be advised about the shoddy weld's. The rubber isolators are a rip off too. Make your own they are a huge key to the affect.

 

[readyfe]

Does that mean you have two amps running also ?

 

[RReed43]

I have a Playseat so not exactly the same but here is my solution to tactile.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=225405

 

[VINCE__]

Does that mean you have two amps running also ?

Yes. Each unit has its own amp. Set up using L/R RCA's with Turtle Beach headset. Works like a champ.

 

[readyfe]

Is this a viable option, I've been reading heaps and beginning to understand but also need something very simple. There's also stock shortage of Buttkicker here in AUS.

1 x Dayton Audio SA240 240W Subwoofer Amplifier
2 x Aura AST-2B-4 Pro Bass Shaker

The SA240 is the cheapest that runs 240v for Australia. It is a little bigger than the SA70 but that is only 110v.

 

[readyfe]

Yes. Each unit has its own amp. Set up using L/R RCA's with Turtle Beach headset. Works like a champ.

Sweet, at least I know this is a solution I can fall back on but was hoping on a 1 amp, 2 LFE type set up...

Thanks heaps..!

 

[RReed43]

Sweet, at least I know this is a solution I can fall back on but was hoping on a 1 amp, 2 LFE type set up...

Thanks heaps..!

If you want to have "stereo" tactile you will need two amps or a sub-woofer amp which has two channels. Many of the sub-woofer amps are mono output even though they may have two channel input. Make sure you study the capabilities of the specific amp before you buy.

Alternatively you could use a conventional stereo or even a 5.1 amp to drive the tactile transducers. The only issue with this solution is whether the amps have enough "punch" at the low frequency to make the tactiles come alive.

 

[readyfe]

@RReed43 - I've read quite a few of your posts, any chance of a recommendation.. Possibly a good but cheap (not cheap as in crap, but lower end of the price range for good quality) and a better but not as cheap option. Size of the amp is the critical component as I want to either fit it under the seat or behind the mounted display.

 

[RReed43]

@RReed43 - I've read quite a few of your posts, any chance of a recommendation.. Possibly a good but cheap (not cheap as in crap, but lower end of the price range for good quality) and a better but not as cheap option. Size of the amp is the critical component as I want to either fit it under the seat or behind the mounted display.

I would love to be able to give you specific advice on amps but I am only familiar with the SA70's I use. There are two of them and they are not small.

What I have observed from my system is that these amps are really working hard. The amps get very hot and I have had multiple thermal protection shutdowns and have had to back off the gain on the amps. The transducers also get hot. I mention this to empshasize the point that it takes a lot of power to deliver a good tactile experience. Don't scimp on the amps or you will end up with puny tactile delivery.

 

[readyfe]

Yeah 2 x SA240's is going to be pretty big..

With the Buttkicker mini Power Amplifier, it says it's designed to power one mini-Concert or two mini-LFEs - Would the two mini LFE's be running still in a mono output..?

 

[RReed43]

Yeah 2 x SA240's is going to be pretty big..

With the Buttkicker mini Power Amplifier, it says it's designed to power one mini-Concert or two mini-LFEs - Would the two mini LFE's be running still in a mono output..?

I think the answer is yes but I haven't studied the BK amps.

 

[readyfe]

Yes. Each unit has its own amp. Set up using L/R RCA's with Turtle Beach headset. Works like a champ.

Thanks for this, are you running the RCA's from the composite output of the PS3 or via from the headphone jack of the PX5?

 

[VINCE__]

Thanks for this, are you running the RCA's from the composite output of the PS3 or via from the headphone jack of the PX5?

Both. The Buttkickers have male to female jacks. So I can run from the console to the TV and to the amps. Cool ain't it?

 

[mikochu]

I'm not sold on spending the cash on two transducers, especially for being on a budget. I have one Pearl Throne Thumper (ButtKicker Simulation kit with a seat mount?) connected to my rSeat EVO 3. From the PS3 and 360, I use the RCA audio-outs and have them connected to an Edcor S2M Stereo to Mono Coupler/Adapter. This allows both left and right channels to be SAFELY sent to the Throne Thumper amp. I thought about playing with the stereo output balance to the thumper to see if it feels more immersive...I'll play with that today.

 

[readyfe]

Okay so with more reading and research I have to ask..

Going direct from the PS3 composite sound output L/R directly to a Buttkicker BKA300-4 to an Advance - is this going to work..? Or is it going to work as effectively coming from a subwoofer output from a receiver?

From my reading it is best to get the signal from the subwoofer output of a receiver which I can't do due to how I want to keep my rig independent of the entertainment system and I'm only running with my PX5 headphones.

Thanks for all the replies and assistance.. It's greatly appreciated!

 

[museumsteve]

Tactile works from the subwoofer line out, otherwise you'd be shaken around with all sorts of noise, music, engine noise etc.

 

[RReed43]

Okay so with more reading and research I have to ask..

Going direct from the PS3 composite sound output L/R directly to a Buttkicker BKA300-4 to an Advance - is this going to work..? Or is it going to work as effectively coming from a subwoofer output from a receiver?

From my reading it is best to get the signal from the subwoofer output of a receiver which I can't do due to how I want to keep my rig independent of the entertainment system and I'm only running with my PX5 headphones.

Thanks for all the replies and assistance.. It's greatly appreciated!

Going directly from the PS3 A/V Multi feed works great. That's the way mine is hooked up. I use the HDMI output to feed my TV and sound system and the Multi feed to drive the tactile. It's also the easiest way to have "stereo" tacticle because you can keep the left and right channels separate and use two sub-woofer amps and two tactile transducers. In the standard AV system the LFE is converted into a mono signal and used to drive a single sub-woofer.

Mr. Latte uses a separate 5.1 AV system to drive his tactile system and uses multi transducers connected to the various AV outputs to create a "surround" tactile system.

 

[museumsteve]

I'm wouldn't be convinced if there's no limit to what is pushed to the transducers as there's no way to differentiate between music, crashing, car noise etc.
Tactile is designed to work in conjunction with the LFE. Obviously you can feed an equalizer from each channel then restrict what is output.

 

[RReed43]

I'm wouldn't be convinced if there's no limit to what is pushed to the transducers as there's no way to differentiate between music, crashing, car noise etc.
Tactile is designed to work in conjunction with the LFE. Obviously you can feed an equalizer from each channel then restrict what is output.

I use a graphics equalizer to limit what I push into the tactiles. I bought a used one on Ebay for $25 including the shipping.

The band pass filters on the sub-woofer amplifiers are not great and the equalizer lets me further limit the frequency and concentrate the power on the really low frequency signal. I drive the system as hard as I can and it feels great and adds a lot to the experience as well as providing extra feedback on how the car is performing.

 

[readyfe]

I use a graphics equalizer to limit what I push into the tactiles.

And without, would it still be a worthwhile experience..? Considering I need to minimise components for my all-in-one rig..?

 

[museumsteve]

And without, would it still be a worthwhile experience..? Considering I need to minimise components for my all-in-one rig..?

The problem of using the stereo outputs without some kind of equalization is that you would feed the 'kickers' with every onscreen noise/signal so it would defeat the object..obviously this is my opinion

In my movie room I have flip down cinema seats. I fitted a miniquake to each seat and loved it. I then fitted 50hz FMOD which stops anything over 50hz going to the seats and after a few movies I fell in love with it again. So much so I even unplugged the FMOD to make sure I was making it up in my head. Rightly enough, even running from the subwoofer output I was still getting some bass music and other effects that really didn't need to shake my seats..the FMOD got it right and now I love every movie.

 

[readyfe]

okay thanks everyone for their input. definitely cleared up a lot and i think now im going to have to rethink my all in one system unless of course there is some sort of x.1ch mini amp out there or mini equalizer...

 

[readyfe]

Both. The Buttkickers have male to female jacks. So I can run from the console to the TV and to the amps. Cool ain't it?

Sorry mate, dont want you having to repeat yourself - but you're running direct from the PS3 AV out (Red & White composite) plugs straight to the 2 x BK2 you've got. No receiver or equalizer in between..?

 

[Mr Latte]

Tactile can without a doubt add an extra dimension of entertainment to a cockpit and bring increased immersion or interaction.

Part of the whole drawbacks or issues with "Tactile" is that because it is audio controlled you will get varied results and levels of interaction from different games or indeed sources. A Buttkicker package while a good entry into experiencing it is however a very limited option offering only a mono tactile experience. Adding additional Buttkicker amps/tactile will then allow you to enjoy stereo tactile steering. Buttkicker nor any other tactile brand I am aware of offer stereo or multichannel one box solutions.

Several of us on the forums have elevated things from d.i.y experimentation and utilising surround decoding to give surround tactile to work in conjunction with surround sound. This can be incredible but will not suit all sources of material.

One of the most common problems is the tactile being too loud or excessive say on some in-game menus (NFSS 2 / Dirt3) and generally wont work so well with racing games if playing along to music. You need to play with the engine/car audio only to get the best from it.

What it comes down to is having more control over the tactile, be it a single or multiple units so that you can manually tweak their response to the desired effect/strength and source or game being used. Again this is where the simple but neat Buttkicker packages tend to fail in comparision to using proper hifi/av equipment for a self purpose build or configuration.

This is where connecting via a "crossover" or indeed using "equalisers" can bring more advanced tuning options in altering the sound effects which then vary how the effect you get feels. Again this is something that most tactile manufacturers do not offer within their product ranges. This becomes very overwhelming if you have no "hifi" or "Home Cinema" equipment knowledge.

Additionally if anyone is connecting to "Multichannel AV amplifers" and going with multiple tactile on various channels then DSP or surround decoding used can also alter/change the waveform characteristics of the audio source which again can change how the effects you get may feel.

An example would be using say a 4 way configuration with Left/Right/Centre and LFE channels connected to tactile units. If selecting DTS/Dolby modes and other DSP available you will feel differences as some will utilise the LFE more or enchance low-mid range frequencies more-so than others or create an extended reverb effect within the tactile units.

I would suggest you consider what you want to achieve from this long-term. By all means their are great bargains to be had in getting old-school but quality amplifiers on places like ebay. Many older units will also support the (4ohm) impedance rating which needs to be addressed. I have went this route selecting quality components and getting some at bargin buys. Sound quality wise too many of the older models had much higher quality amplification and build standards than today's newest feature rich models. You can get models in the UK for instance that cost £600 - £1000 3-5 years old for under £200.

Do be warned though, tactile can become addictive and when you add multiple channels then multiple equalisers and achieve having repeated channels but with separate/different user controls for those you can achieve some vary dramatic effects, not just a big crazy single rumble and as such can be one heck of an increase in your gaming enjoyment.

My own experimentation has gone crazy and over the last two years I have purchased 16 tactile units, 4x 7.1 amplifers, 6x 31 band equalisers (20hz - 20khz) and two bass enhancers for the LFE while also supporting 7 channel surround and 5x subwoofers. I have now upgraded to using 9x tactile units on my Cobra race seat alone for a controlled yet very detailed tactile experience.

Just getting that all to work together is a project in its own...
Now if only I had enough spare time to start building it all into my cockpit but will get their eventually.

If you need help we will try to let you make the right decisions.
Their are various tactile units which can work better for certain roles if building a rather serious setup.

 

[readyfe]

My own experimentation has gone crazy and over the last two years I have purchased 16 tactile units, 4x 7.1 amplifiers, 6x 31 band equalisers (20hz - 20khz) and two bass enhancers for the LFE while also supporting 7 channel surround and 5x subwoofers. I have now upgraded to using 9x tactile units on my Cobra race seat.

I can just imagine my wife saying "Now where do you think you're gonna put that?!?!?"

Thank you - Space is the major issue otherwise I would have dedicated a room for this, I've got all the bits, the tactile is probably the least expensive to get off the ground. Sitting in the garage is a projector, screen, a Sony 12" SA-WX90 sub a 7.1ch Amp, Polk centre speaker all doing nothing. Speakers that were ceiling mounted are useless as the living room got converted into a bedroom (post reno). With young kids the home theatre project got shelved hence the headphones and tactile approach. I just dont have the space in the home to dedicate to it.

I've been pretty addicted to F1 2010/2011 the last year and havent raced anything else on my PS3 and am looking forward to rFactor2 - will be my first step in PC racing...

The all in one cockpit/rig is important to me as it means it is self-sufficient and mobile if need be. I will leave the Fanatec GT2 and CS Pedals on the Rennsport wheel stand for the TV room when the wife is out and I'm baby sitting so I stay inside the home, but looks likely the T500 F1 set up with GamePod and (can't wait) Cobra Evo seat will be in the garage. If that's the case then I will go all out in the garage with a 3.1ch speaker + Buttkicker Advance setup to start with... there i have space and no one to question whether it's taken over the room - the downside is i can only use it when the wife is home and kids are asleep.

 

[lemansfanatic]

Tactile works from the subwoofer line out, otherwise you'd be shaken around with all sorts of noise, music, engine noise etc.

Yeah this is the problem i'm having too. i tryed to get rid of my surround receiver to save space because i am only using headphones. so i bought a small 5.1 digital to annalog converter to use the rca subwoofer output but didnt have very good results. then i tryed going LR out of my tv audio output into the butkicker amp, but the low frequency isolation is gone, even after tweaking the cuttoff ranges on the amp. i can hear the music and other sounds coming from the transducer, which is what you dont want. take my advice, i tryed to get around not using a surround receiver to save space, but the subwoofer output is definately neccessary to isolate the low frequency channel accurately...

 

[mikochu]

Yeah this is the problem i'm having too. i tryed to get rid of my surround receiver to save space because i am only using headphones. so i bought a small 5.1 digital to annalog converter to use the rca subwoofer output but didnt have very good results. then i tryed going LR out of my tv audio output into the butkicker amp, but the low frequency isolation is gone, even after tweaking the cuttoff ranges on the amp. i can hear the music and other sounds coming from the transducer, which is what you dont want. take my advice, i tryed to get around not using a surround receiver to save space, but the subwoofer output is definately neccessary to isolate the low frequency channel accurately...

You can use your RCA audio out with a stereo to mono adapter (Edcor S2M) with FMOD LOW PASS adapter(s), too.

 

[oqvist]

mr Latte that was hardcore. Have you tried the ivibe seat? I don´t know if the business is still going. There was some lawman suit going on with sony and immersion last time.

But that truly is a ffb seat since it doesn´t go by audio but uses ffb to decide how to vibrate the different motors. Really cool in rFactor though the comfort is not quite as good unless you build the motors directly into the chair.

I have used a gamer before on the playseat and currently a LFE on my nixim cockpit. Maybe would be fine with a mini LFE dunno but it´s 90 kg so dual gamers would not be enough .

Gamer was enough for my playseat evo though I often had to crank it up max. Dunno if it was just the less mass of the playseat but it did seem faster then the LFE. It could track rumble strips better I felt giving the exact same feel as my momo force red wheel I had at the time in GTR 2 where the LFE may be able to deliver more sub bass but having a more mushy feeling.

When/if you get one do try this. GTR 2 and get yourself stalked by a corvette. It was absolutely terrifying the first time I got victim of that. Talk about big black devil in the rear mirror! Sadly the sound standard in racing games is generally horrible which also mean the transducers show that but well with tweakage I would say all my racing games has been improved to various degrees.

My LFE has definiatly seen it´s best time though. It´s gotten real noisy and the vibrations also feels more like vibration then force feedback so I pretty much has to use noise cancelling headphones to fully enjoy it.

If I make another attempt I may try some mini LFEs instead. But it doesn´t look like the buttkicker power amp is capable of delivering separate right and left signals to them and I can´t afford more cable clutter

 

[museumsteve]

I picked up 2 Rockwood body shakers off ebay this week for £50 delivered. I'm gonna fit them to my seat this week and see how they fair and perhaps remove my Earthquake miniquake as it's a bit too big for seat with my plans for adding motion.
I use an Onkyo 309 for my audio on my rig and the sub output feeds an old Yamaha receiver through a 50hz FMOD but I am now really tempted to look at an equaliser..