BWM 330I vs Lexus IS 350
- Thread starter super cirrus
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Supposedly, the newer run-flats cure some of the harshness of the first ones, while current BMW chassis development is done with the run-flats on so that the suspension can be tuned to eliminate harshness.
That's supposedly... not having experienced a new BMW on a suitably rough road, I can't say whether it's worked or not.
But if the newer run-flat BMWs ride well on run-flats, imagine how they'd ride on proper rubbers.
As for the IS, I believe it. Toyota's suspension tuning has taken a turn for the stiffer in the past few years. A lot of new Toyotas I've ridden have felt as stiffer or stiffer than my supposedly "sports" suspended car.
That's supposedly... not having experienced a new BMW on a suitably rough road, I can't say whether it's worked or not.
But if the newer run-flat BMWs ride well on run-flats, imagine how they'd ride on proper rubbers.
As for the IS, I believe it. Toyota's suspension tuning has taken a turn for the stiffer in the past few years. A lot of new Toyotas I've ridden have felt as stiffer or stiffer than my supposedly "sports" suspended car.
- 1,397
a lot of companies do things the easy way.
throw gadgets in a car and call it a luxury car.
make the suspension stiffer and call it a sports car
implement an all wheel drive system in a model and call it an off road vehicle
etc etc etc
theres more to a luxury car than gadgets.
more to a sports car than stiff suspension.
and more to an offroad vehicle than an all wheel drive system.
i actually remember reading an article about a (kia i think) suv that was doing some pretty serious four wheeling when the engine blew. the oil had drained away from the oil pump pickup during one of the manouvers. until then it was doing great.
throw gadgets in a car and call it a luxury car.
make the suspension stiffer and call it a sports car
implement an all wheel drive system in a model and call it an off road vehicle
etc etc etc
theres more to a luxury car than gadgets.
more to a sports car than stiff suspension.
and more to an offroad vehicle than an all wheel drive system.
i actually remember reading an article about a (kia i think) suv that was doing some pretty serious four wheeling when the engine blew. the oil had drained away from the oil pump pickup during one of the manouvers. until then it was doing great.
- 23,800
- Philippines
My car's an MP3 (oh, a rebadge, but it's almost exactly the same underneath). It's been pushed in US testing to 70 mph slalom times in some tests.
The suspension is, understandably, stiff... then.
Thus, it's a surprise to me, that supposedly more "comfortable" Toyotas, of late, have all felt either just as stiff or less pliant than my car... which is notorious for being easily upset by bumps because of this stiffness.
So, yeah, stiffness does not equal sportiness. Some of the clumsiest handling cars I've ever driven have been as stiff as skateboards.
And gadgets not equalling luxury? Tell that to the Lexus owners...
The suspension is, understandably, stiff... then.
Thus, it's a surprise to me, that supposedly more "comfortable" Toyotas, of late, have all felt either just as stiff or less pliant than my car... which is notorious for being easily upset by bumps because of this stiffness.
So, yeah, stiffness does not equal sportiness. Some of the clumsiest handling cars I've ever driven have been as stiff as skateboards.
And gadgets not equalling luxury? Tell that to the Lexus owners...
Pink_the_Floyd
(Banned)
- 4,041
The Lexus offcourse, it beats the BMW in every way!
BMW will get their ass kicked all over the place when the LS460 comes out!
BMW will get their ass kicked all over the place when the LS460 comes out!
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
...Pink: Just because a Lexus is faster in a straight line doesnt make it a better car, and I doubt anyone who has any actual driving expirience would choose a computer-controled Lexus over a rather straight-forward BMW. Its as simple as that.
LS460: BMW has nothing to concern itself with there, as Lexus has made it clear that their target is the new S550 from Mercedes. But between the two, the Lexus is boring on the inside and outside, and won't offer the same level of perfection offered up by the Germans with optional sport suspensions, engines, etc. People with common sense will still buy the better looking and better performing 750i when the LS460 comes out, but either way, the Mercedes is still king of the hill when it comes to full-size luxury sedans...
LS460: BMW has nothing to concern itself with there, as Lexus has made it clear that their target is the new S550 from Mercedes. But between the two, the Lexus is boring on the inside and outside, and won't offer the same level of perfection offered up by the Germans with optional sport suspensions, engines, etc. People with common sense will still buy the better looking and better performing 750i when the LS460 comes out, but either way, the Mercedes is still king of the hill when it comes to full-size luxury sedans...
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
YSSMAN
The IS350 undrecuts the 330i's base price by $1,160. The Lexus offers a few standard features that are options on the Bimmer, and vice-versa. You can rack up 8-9k in options on both cars with little effort. If you option them roughly the same, the Lexus comes out roughly ~1.5k cheaper. If you get an autobox in the BMW, it jumps to 3k.
At this price, 3k works out to less than 8% of the total cost. Not much difference.
Of course, the big question is where BMW will price the 335i. We have a fair guess of where they will place the 335i Coupe --base MSRP price of $42,000--based on recently released US military overseas sales prices. But the jury is still out on the sedan.
Many people believe the price increase will be small --around 2k. While others are thinking 4k.
Bottom line is that in September, the 3 series power deficit will finally go away. The N54 turbo produces more torque at 1,400 RPM (300 ft-lb) than the IS300 does at peak (277 ft-lb @ 4,800). With more torque under the curve, the 335i will not only close the gap, but leave the Lexus behind comfortably. I predict 1/4 mile times to be mid 13s @ 104-105 mph.
M
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
^^^ I hear that!
Lexus will be running with it's tail between it's legs when BMW comes back with the 335i, I guarantee it. Again, people won't care about a few grand here or there if it is a superior product that they are paying for, and atleast with most gearheads, they would rather have the BMW's lazer-like precision than Lexus' remote-controlled "perfection."
I don't know if anyone reads the Autoextremist rant every week, but he tackles the same issue we are having in this past Wednesday's rant. Most of the article is about BMW's new "No." and "Independence" ad campaigns, and why they are such a stand-out company compared to everyone else. In a world of bark and bite, BMW does both, and the bite often times matches the bark... No other company can say that... Not even the pretty little Lexus in their "Passonate Persuit of Perfection."
Lexus will be running with it's tail between it's legs when BMW comes back with the 335i, I guarantee it. Again, people won't care about a few grand here or there if it is a superior product that they are paying for, and atleast with most gearheads, they would rather have the BMW's lazer-like precision than Lexus' remote-controlled "perfection."
I don't know if anyone reads the Autoextremist rant every week, but he tackles the same issue we are having in this past Wednesday's rant. Most of the article is about BMW's new "No." and "Independence" ad campaigns, and why they are such a stand-out company compared to everyone else. In a world of bark and bite, BMW does both, and the bite often times matches the bark... No other company can say that... Not even the pretty little Lexus in their "Passonate Persuit of Perfection."
So do any of you actually drive these machines competitively? Does anyone here actually ever go to the track? Does anyone ever take the car to the point where you can actually notice a substantial difference in the handling characteristics of either vehicle? I doubt it.
In the city, or highway, where most of you spend your mornings and evenings, what it truly and ultimately comes down to is this:
Which one is more pleasant to sit in?
Which one is more ergonomic?
Which one has the better interior?
Which one is safer?
Which one is quieter?
Which one has the better sound system?
Which one has the better seats?
There is a huge difference between tracking a car and appearing to only care about performance and actually owning something that you drive daily and have to pay to maintain, something Lexus has made easy. If you are such enthusiasts as you claim, then buy an Elise.
In the city, or highway, where most of you spend your mornings and evenings, what it truly and ultimately comes down to is this:
Which one is more pleasant to sit in?
Which one is more ergonomic?
Which one has the better interior?
Which one is safer?
Which one is quieter?
Which one has the better sound system?
Which one has the better seats?
There is a huge difference between tracking a car and appearing to only care about performance and actually owning something that you drive daily and have to pay to maintain, something Lexus has made easy. If you are such enthusiasts as you claim, then buy an Elise.
- 1,397
all those are subjective points.
which is safer; the one with more airbags or the one that wont let you get into an accident in the first place?
which is more pleasant to sit in; the one with a lower belt line and easier clearer visibility but a slightly harder seat, or the one with a high belt line lower visibility and more comfy seat?
ergonomics are essentally a wash in this comparison. both are good. one will be suited fot taller drivers than another. one for wider. one for shorter. one for people who have long arms.
same for "better" interior. better is too vague a word. is better in terms of quality of materials or feel of materials or look of materials. if the one with a better material is not as well integrated as the one without, which one is better?
is the better sound system the louder one or the dynamically superior one?
is the better seat the harder one that lets you get out after driving a longdistance without feeling tired, or the one thats more comfy but drains it out of you on a long trip.
<aside>(this is a recurring discussion between my brother and i on the merits of my 1990 300Es harder seats, lower beltline and highway manner vs his newer and quieter toyota camry which does the job just as effectively but you want to go straight to sleep after driving 10 hours in one day. and yes, ive done that in both. the 300E is clearly superior on the long trip, even though its seats are harder, its less quiet, has lower fuel economy (but a bigger tank!) and so on. 'talso depends on how much one is willing to live with. there are people who drive lotus 7 (caterham and replicas) as daily drivers.</aside>
its all preference.
in the real world, not everyone can afford to or are they willing to actually track thier car, but they might appreciate its handling on a canyon road once a week.
just becaue i drive a stolid understeering big heavy tank of a benz doesnt mean i cant appreacite the subtle steering nuances of a lighter nimbler car. but then again i have my BMW 2002 for that.
which is safer; the one with more airbags or the one that wont let you get into an accident in the first place?
which is more pleasant to sit in; the one with a lower belt line and easier clearer visibility but a slightly harder seat, or the one with a high belt line lower visibility and more comfy seat?
ergonomics are essentally a wash in this comparison. both are good. one will be suited fot taller drivers than another. one for wider. one for shorter. one for people who have long arms.
same for "better" interior. better is too vague a word. is better in terms of quality of materials or feel of materials or look of materials. if the one with a better material is not as well integrated as the one without, which one is better?
is the better sound system the louder one or the dynamically superior one?
is the better seat the harder one that lets you get out after driving a longdistance without feeling tired, or the one thats more comfy but drains it out of you on a long trip.
<aside>(this is a recurring discussion between my brother and i on the merits of my 1990 300Es harder seats, lower beltline and highway manner vs his newer and quieter toyota camry which does the job just as effectively but you want to go straight to sleep after driving 10 hours in one day. and yes, ive done that in both. the 300E is clearly superior on the long trip, even though its seats are harder, its less quiet, has lower fuel economy (but a bigger tank!) and so on. 'talso depends on how much one is willing to live with. there are people who drive lotus 7 (caterham and replicas) as daily drivers.</aside>
its all preference.
in the real world, not everyone can afford to or are they willing to actually track thier car, but they might appreciate its handling on a canyon road once a week.
just becaue i drive a stolid understeering big heavy tank of a benz doesnt mean i cant appreacite the subtle steering nuances of a lighter nimbler car. but then again i have my BMW 2002 for that.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Its part of the reason why I choose to drive a Volkswagen instead of some Toyota or Honda. I prefer to have a tighter suspension, with seats that are a bit more firm, and a car that is a bit more "exciting" to drive. Unlike the Toyotas and Hondas which are great cars, cheaper to buy, and a little less to insure, I would rather pay for a car that I'm going to ENJOY than a car that I'm just going to drive.
...Maybe its called common sense, but I think your car should be an extension of yourself, and a Toyota or Honda just doesnt do it for me. They arent fun, they arent good looking, and most importantly, they arent quirky in any sort of way. What fun is there in that?
Its for similar reasons why companies like Saab have stayed in business in the US for so long. They are a company that represents something different, and with the little quirks, they have gained quite a following. Sure, most people would rather get in line for their next Japanese car, but I just say "NO" and head for the nearest German or American dealer.
...Maybe its called common sense, but I think your car should be an extension of yourself, and a Toyota or Honda just doesnt do it for me. They arent fun, they arent good looking, and most importantly, they arent quirky in any sort of way. What fun is there in that?
Its for similar reasons why companies like Saab have stayed in business in the US for so long. They are a company that represents something different, and with the little quirks, they have gained quite a following. Sure, most people would rather get in line for their next Japanese car, but I just say "NO" and head for the nearest German or American dealer.
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
The Alien
I do.
For various reasons (starting a family chief amoung them), I don't autocross my current vehicle, but have a few years of 'competition driving' under my belt in the car you see above, amoung others. Many other GTP members do as well. I wouldn't assume that just because this is a video game enthusiast's site that there aren't actual car enthusiasts here also. In fact, there's a thread a few down where another member documents his trip to a track event.
But your really don't need to track these cars to uncover the differences between them. A spirited romp through the backroads are usually good enough. Personally speaking, would be easy for me to notice the difference between two cars like the IS and 330i. Heck, it's easy for me to notice the difference between a 330i with the sport package and one without.
If satisfying the requirements of a daily driver was all that truly mattered, why even bother with something as excessive as a Lexus or BMW? 99% of our driving needs are met with a Civic. Yet, strangely, I don't know of many people whose dream it is to own one.
Both the IS350 and 330i are supposed to be Sport Sedans. This means they fulfill the mundane requirements of the daily driver we all need, but they can also behave like a sports car when called upon. BMW realized in the 60s that not everyone can afford to have both a comfortable sedan and a sports car for the weekends. The creation of the segment allowed enthusiasts to have both in one car.
Now sport sedans are necessarily compromised to perform in the face of conflicting requirements, so we don't expect them to do both jobs as well as a car specialized in each. But we DO expect them to perform at least competently in each mission. It just so happens the BMW is more competent when it comes to the sport in sport sedan.
If your argument boils down to the fact that the IS350 is a better daily driver, I'd respond by pointing out that the ES350 is supposed to be the comfortable and quiet commuter's appliance. The IS is supposed to be far more enthusiast oriented.
Some of us would love to have an Elise, but are faced with the challenge of compromising real world needs as well. Again, the whole idea of a sports sedan is that you can have a car that does both. If I were still a single guy with no family commitments, an Elise is probably what I'd have.
(come to think of it, I'd probably have a Cayman S because we don't get the Europa, but that's a different thread)
M
- 683
Sorry for mixing between posts, but M-Spec, is that an ///M3 ? Nice one ;-)
PS: Even if it isn't, it certanly looks like one....but one that can afford 17" (i think) ///M3 wheels, front and rear bumpers, seats, side skirts MAY be able to afford a used ///M3 (sais me )
PS: Even if it isn't, it certanly looks like one....but one that can afford 17" (i think) ///M3 wheels, front and rear bumpers, seats, side skirts MAY be able to afford a used ///M3 (sais me
)
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
puricele7e
Yes, it was a 1995 M3 with the US spec 3.0 liter and a 5 speed. I don't have that car anymore, I'm somewhat sad to say. In it's time, it won it's fair share of events and vanquished some worthy challengers. I had another M3 after that one, a '98 sedan; but it never captured my heart like my '95 coupe.
M
I do.
Nice, and I applaud you at your efforts and talent.
I wasn't really trying to make a point of either I was trying to drive home some points people very commonly overlook. Time and time again, I get to a board where people are all talk and I find out they've never even seen a track, let alone are old enough to drive. The bit about the IS was just an example, I could have used a schoolbus as far as personal preference goes, but since the IS and the bimmer were the topics of debate, I picked the IS.
That wasn't really an attack (or reference) on[to] you, or anyone on here personally, so much as just the impression of a general mob-attitude that people act as though performance is all that matters.
Argh, I'd take the Europa just because it's so sexy.
- 1,397
the alien
i get ya
devils advocate, but with a smidge of reality and common sense thrown in.
its basically a litmus test of what people talk about doing and what they actually do. i feel ya on that.
i get ya
devils advocate, but with a smidge of reality and common sense thrown in.
its basically a litmus test of what people talk about doing and what they actually do. i feel ya on that.
- 23,800
- Philippines
If only some of us had the money and werewithal to actually do everything that we want.
I suppose we'd all have an Elise in the garage, then.
But in the real world, you get your kicks where you can find them, and that means getting something dual purpose.
I suppose we'd all have an Elise in the garage, then.
But in the real world, you get your kicks where you can find them, and that means getting something dual purpose.
///M-Spec
Staff Emeritus
- 4,928
The Alien
'Talent' may be overly generous because that's me looking over my left shoulder at the apex I should have hit
but thanks all the same. (I swear, my front tires overheated on me.. and I hit some marbles.. and a nearby corner worker started picking his nose and that made me laugh.... )The Alien
You make a fair point and I understand where you're coming from. Some car enthusiasts, particularly younger ones, have an impractical and sometimes unrealistic view of what a performance car should be. They also forget that when push comes to shove and the clock is ticking, the nut holding the wheel is what really counts. That's how I was not but 9-10 years ago.
But that's just the enthusiasm of youth, I suppose.
The Alien
Agreed. Europa S = teh hawt.
BTW, Welcome to GTPlanet.
M
The Alien
If I had a 2006 330i, I would -- 0-year-old components tend to be friendlier and break less often than 21-year-old ones.
That said, I'm still planning on doing some autocross and/or track days this summer.
I would also be willing to wager that I drive my car more quickly and harder than many people who own faster and sportier cars. Is it dumb to do so on public roads? Yes, but unlike the Honda-driving teenagers in my city, I'm not driving where there are people or other cars nearby.
The Alien
Even if you don't take advantage of the performance of a car, that doesn't mean that you have to buy the car that is more practical, or better in Category A, or Category B, or even every category. You and M-Spec addressed the differences in priorities between the pursuit for performance and the pursuit for practicality, and you're both right, but you forgot one thing -- soul.
Not everyone will agree with me, but I believe that different cars have different souls or personalities, and I care about the heritage and history that a car has. I guess that's why I like European cars so much.
Taking that into consideration, the IS350 is like a scalpel -- precise, useful, and very practical, but it doesn't feel very natural to wield it like a weapon, and it's no fun to do so. In contrast, the 330i is like a katana -- also very precise, though not as useful or practical, and it just feels right to wield it. The katana also provides more enjoyment and thrills.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
^^^ +1! Great Post...
Soul, to me, has become so important to me in an automobile as I have gotten older. I've come a long way from lusting after the super-fast and outrageous exotics, to jumping on the tuner craze for 10 mins, going back to my roots with musclecars, but maturity has it's advantages.
All I want is a car that is fun to drive, and is pretty fast while doing so. That is the problem with about 90% of the Japanese cars we see in the US, particularly those that come from Toyota and Honda. Atleast Mazda gets it right by tuning the suspensions, geting the dimensions right, etc... Their cars are actually FUN to drive agressively.
Sure, I still like Ferraris and Chevelles, but I think I would be much happier with something like a 325ci with a 6-speed, and nothing else. It isnt flashy, not outrageously fast in a straight line, just a nicely balanced car. Its a car that you can talk to, and strangely enough, the car talks back. Its something both the Germans and the Italians are really quite good at doing with their cars, and it would explain my shift twards European cars over the past few years.
...Its also part of the reason why I believe that Alfa Romeo will be so successful when they come to the US later this year, and into next. Their cars not only look like passionate automobiles, but they drive, and sound like them as well. For people who want to be connected to the road, Alfa and BMW seem to be at the core of the car companies who can deliver that expirience.
Soul, to me, has become so important to me in an automobile as I have gotten older. I've come a long way from lusting after the super-fast and outrageous exotics, to jumping on the tuner craze for 10 mins, going back to my roots with musclecars, but maturity has it's advantages.
All I want is a car that is fun to drive, and is pretty fast while doing so. That is the problem with about 90% of the Japanese cars we see in the US, particularly those that come from Toyota and Honda. Atleast Mazda gets it right by tuning the suspensions, geting the dimensions right, etc... Their cars are actually FUN to drive agressively.
Sure, I still like Ferraris and Chevelles, but I think I would be much happier with something like a 325ci with a 6-speed, and nothing else. It isnt flashy, not outrageously fast in a straight line, just a nicely balanced car. Its a car that you can talk to, and strangely enough, the car talks back. Its something both the Germans and the Italians are really quite good at doing with their cars, and it would explain my shift twards European cars over the past few years.
...Its also part of the reason why I believe that Alfa Romeo will be so successful when they come to the US later this year, and into next. Their cars not only look like passionate automobiles, but they drive, and sound like them as well. For people who want to be connected to the road, Alfa and BMW seem to be at the core of the car companies who can deliver that expirience.
YSSMAN
Thanks.
YSSMAN
I agree completely. That's why I'm happy with my 318i right now, even though it only produces 101hp and can't outrun a minivan.
Interestingly enough, you and I appreciate German cars for their soul, and you said you'd like a 325Ci instead of a Ferrari (although one of the two is much, much more affordable
)...Jeremy Clarkson consistently rates Ferraris above Porsches, and other Italian cars above "ze Germans," because he feels that the Ferraris and Italian cars have more soul, and that the German cars are lifeless and cold. Similar threads
