Camber Theory

[SavageEvil]

Well it's no surprise we have issues PD have simplified suspension tuning it's a crime, lol. Well anyway, many of these cars their stock set ups are wild and crazy anyway, many cars sport different camber and toe settings per tire per side. PD made this simplified and tied right and left together since this makes sense in track racing but not all racing requires equal left and right settings and some like NASCAR have different settings per tire all around the car. Here are actual settings taken from an actual 2010 Grand Sport

Front Camber Left = -1.17 Initial was -1.16
Front Camber Right = -1.22 -1.27

Front Toe Left = -0.01 Initial was 0.16
Front Toe Right = -0.01 0.21

Rear Camber Left = -0.90 Initial was -0.87
Rear Camber Right = -0.76 -0.81

Rear Toe Left = .00 Initial was -0.15
Rear Toe Right = .00 -0.14

Notice the left and right have different settings, which are meant to reflect contact patch remaining relatively flat in relation to suspension geometry movement, for street tires and numbers on the right are stock. The front tires are set to track settings but the rears are at street settings for camber but the toe settings are all street settings. Spirited driving I suppose this car was set up from the factory for. Sharp steering response and lots of forward grip for the rears.
PD needs to let us set the suspension the same way like real cars. I was tooling around with my '04 Z06 with a full custom suspension and gave it stock Performance Street setting tune from this http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-...09/Corvette-Alignment-Guide-Rev-9.12.2011.pdf track use with street tires as I kept the car on the stock rubber and results are these settings I used are much better than the understeering numb stuff PD defaulted every car to. Leads me to another question, just why did they give us such odd default settings? Anyway I tried out 0 camber and 17º toe at the rear and the car is easy to drive and amazingly has no problem going around the track. I find it strange that a zero camber setting which means low negatives under normal load, but when turning the outside wheel will have a bit of negative camber under load and the inner wheel will have positive camber even higher at the rear inner wheel which should translate into issues on a track as you aren't using all of your contact patch. GT6 somehow does not seem to factor this as I was able to corner as if I had full contact with zero camber(which is nonsense). I drove around at Laguna Seca, lots of flat track with mildly banked curves and a corkscrew but zero camber cars can drive around as if they have negative camber dialed in. In fact when you add camber you tend to slip more and your braking distances go up.
More testing to be done as I feel there is something definitely wrong as zero camber on a race course will give good straight line performance but carving corners and holding speed you will need a bit of camber and that amount increases as the type of compound changes. This zero camber setting is weird I think we need tire wear to see more in depth if this is actually stressing the tires more and causing wear on the tires that are not lined up to correctly take advantage it's contact patch and the course. Back to the proving grounds, but I'll leave this here there is something off about 0.0 camber set up, the grip you get in corners makes no sense and is almost comical on sport hard tires. Is positive camber even modeled correctly in GT at all, aside from seeing it when your car is on the lift it's not known whether positive camber is actually represented actively when driving. I mean that's my theory to why zero camber has no actual disadvantages in the game. I'm bored so I needed something to do.

 

[Stotty]

Those tunes for seasonals from the top tuners on a forum are base tunes and people tweak them to their own driving, so you have no idea what the top people are actually using. Sure, there are people who use the tune and change nothing, but that is rare for people placing well. Also...a lot of people that do very well in the seasonal either aren't on here or they don't post to tell everyone how well they're doing. A LOT of people use their own tunes. Not sure how you figure who is using what. People may use the same car, like the gsxr for example, but as I said...most use our own tunes. Of course some people will say "yes, I used x's tune". They're not going to give many hints as to what they're doing for setup, most notably when they'll be using the car in future seasonals or online leagues/series. Some people will be helpful, most won't even post/aren't on here...and that's why you couldn't have any idea as who is using what. I don't, other than the people who have told/shown me their setup.

Just because these tuners put out a good seasonal setup and some people on the forum report that they have good luck with it...that has nothing to do with the amount of people at the top and what they're setups look like. The people posting feedback and experiences on here are a fraction of people doing the seasonals. Also, you would be surprised at how many people say what they use to throw people off, too. They'll believe someone who is doing very well and he or she is not really using said setup. Idk. We don't have to agree. I don't feel like going back and forth.

Which tuners on here that consistently release tunes place within the top ten very often? Where have I been? You can't trust that they are using the same tune either, dude. Even if they placing that high, consistently. I wouldn't trust, because I wouldn't give out the exact tune myself. I have no shame in being honest about that. It is the exact reason indo not post tunes. Who wants to be beaten with their own tune, after putting a LOT of time and effort into it? Often over a thousand miles worth to dial it in and still have more to gain.

Handling these 2 points together...

You’re very sceptical of others intentions!! There’s a really good culture of sharing tunes in the Seasonal section.

Crank, Raja, ET, Loydz all share tunes on a regular basis and all rank top 10 on a regular basis, and Eclipsee, (who will pretty much always finish 1 or 2 in any TT he choses to run) shares his from time to time too.

Even if I’m completely gullible, and they are deliberately misleading, Ramon (@eclipsee ) is a personal friend of mine (I’ve known him for many years) and the tunes he shares with me will be legit.

And personally, I have no problem sharing any tune – I know where I sit on the skills ladder and I am comfortable and confident enough in my abilities not to have to ‘hide’ a perceived advantage coming from a tune. I also enjoy seeing others improve

I didn't read much of your post once it got into saying things like intellectual masurbation and crap like that. That is filler from someone who is either running out of things to say or just wants to ramble on/sound like smug. Intellectual masturbation. lol.

Perhaps I should have said ‘over complicating’. But then again, I don’t call people ‘dude’ lol

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

I think you're referring to the Toyota GT-One.

The Escudo did it too

 

[332i]

@Stotty

Ok, man. Whatever you say.

 

[praiano63]

No, no positive results using camber. I've tried it on every car I've run in the Seasonals, and adding any front camber = more understeer.

And I didn't say it worked the same as before 1.09, only that it had an effect before 1.09 - the discussion isn't whether does 'something', it's whether it works as it should do. And it doesn't.

If it worked properly, you would see tunes with various degrees of negative front & rear camber. Instead, all I've found from any of the tuners with a longstanding reputation are a few from Praiano, running negative rear camber.

If people really believe that camber makes a car faster post some tunes in the seasonals section and let one of the fast boys run it against one without.

You´re right, as i´ve explained in another camber thread,i only use camber as an extra extension damper setting.
My recents tunes have rear camber just to let the rear end more safe. Without it, it´s harder to stay on the grip edge and the car pass over the tires more easily. If it don´t spin , it slow the car and disturb the driving line.
Of course very fast aliens drivers like you will not have to use this trick. They have a so good feeling of th grip that they don´t need safe margin to be fast and wild.
Above 2.5 or 3.0 camber value , there is a significant progressive lost of grip.
I´m about to publish a Toyota MR2 1600 G '86 420PP comfortmedium tires. This is a very unstable scarry car.
Even the most extreme settings are not taming it enough. The only trick that i have found is to use 4.0 front camber. It let the car a lot safer, taking out some front grip and making the weight transfer a lot smoother. It´s a bit slower than the 0.0 front camber but almost everybody can drive the car this way.
I´ll publish it sonn in the shootout post so you´ll be able to check it by yourself.
This is just my opinion, not the absolute true at all.
><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°

 

[ODB]

Ok this is sort of just a wild guess, but could it actually be so, that when you apply some camper you can use a lot more of the cars weight transfer in order to make the car faster in corners, I mean whit 0 camper it seems to me that there could be a lot more grip on the inner back tire while cornering that there will be whit some camper? Does this make sense? And when there's 0 camper on the front tires they will bite to the road more vigorously and instantly on turn in, but when the weight of the car starts to transfer the grip fails somewhat on mid corner, but if you just tune your car to handle sliding the weight won't transfer so much and 0 camper seems to give ultimately better grip, while if you'd took another direction from the start of a tune it would indeed be nicer to drive and be as fast as whit 0 camper.

I mean I have used many great tunes from those TT threats ( I'm trying to figure more and more in order to make my own tunes but it's not that simple especially when things seem to chance all the time...) but it really got me wondering what is going on when I did some laps on GTA especially on final stage when I have some what figured out how to drive these PD tuned cars and just starter to figure there's something odd going on whit the tune of the car. And when I did many many laps on that nurb 24hTT I suddenly started to think that maybe the "oddness" of these PD tuned cars was because they use camper, I mean someone was commenting on how the LSD setting feel'd weird on that TT but then it struck me, I suddenly realized that I could be very early on the throttle and it seemed like I would spin in any other car but this just holds it on the line... I mean coming out of corner it seemed sometimes that the whole weight of the car is on the outer back tire, I'm full on the throttle but I'm not spinning, what is this...

Ok, I hope this makes any sense, and like I said, this is just a hunch or a wild guess since I still don't know how to make fast tunes... I mean I can make the car drive bit easier but it wont be any fast

EDIT:

You´re right, as i´ve explained in another camber thread,i only use camber as an extra extension damper setting.
My recents tunes have rear camber just to let the rear end more safe. Without it, it´s harder to stay on the grip edge and the car pass over the tires more easily. If it don´t spin , it slow the car and disturb the driving line.
Of course very fast aliens drivers like you will not have to use this trick. They have a so good feeling of th grip that they don´t need safe margin to be fast and wild.
Above 2.5 or 3.0 camber value , there is a significant progressive lost of grip.
I´m about to publish a Toyota MR2 1600 G '86 420PP comfortmedium tires. This is a very unstable scarry car.
Even the most extreme settings are not taming it enough. The only trick that i have found is to use 4.0 front camber. It let the car a lot safer, taking out some front grip and making the weight transfer a lot smoother. It´s a bit slower than the 0.0 front camber but almost everybody can drive the car this way.
I´ll publish it sonn in the shootout post so you´ll be able to check it by yourself.
This is just my opinion, not the absolute true at all.
><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°

Making the car safer is good way to put it!! I mean many times it have seemed that those PD tuned cars allows me to push it a lot more than these 0 camper tunes, and I don't mean that I doubt that they ain't fast, it's just really much more on the edge the whole time whit 0 camper... And yeah, at least some of these PD tuned cars start to have the grip when you push them, I mean many times in nurb24TT I thought I over shot the corner but just lifting off (praying) and turning really carefully seemed to give me more grip at the same time reducing the speed, and this is something that I don't find that easy on 0 camper... And yeah, don't crucify me for saying any of this, this is just a hunch but it feels like I have to involve somehow to get more understanding...

 

[LeoStrop]

You´re right, as i´ve explained in another camber thread,i only use camber as an extra extension damper setting.
My recents tunes have rear camber just to let the rear end more safe. Without it, it´s harder to stay on the grip edge and the car pass over the tires more easily. If it don´t spin , it slow the car and disturb the driving line.
Of course very fast aliens drivers like you will not have to use this trick. They have a so good feeling of th grip that they don´t need safe margin to be fast and wild.
Above 2.5 or 3.0 camber value , there is a significant progressive lost of grip.
I´m about to publish a Toyota MR2 1600 G '86 420PP comfortmedium tires. This is a very unstable scarry car.
Even the most extreme settings are not taming it enough. The only trick that i have found is to use 4.0 front camber. It let the car a lot safer, taking out some front grip and making the weight transfer a lot smoother. It´s a bit slower than the 0.0 front camber but almost everybody can drive the car this way.
I´ll publish it sonn in the shootout post so you´ll be able to check it by yourself.
This is just my opinion, not the absolute true at all.
><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°

That's exactly how i feel about it, rear camber helps me a lot when it comes to control a car that tends to oversteer, i don't feel a big gain of grip, but it just makes the car feel safer and smooth at the edge of grip.

The first car i tested after the 1.09 was a Ruf BTR, i was on the Nordschleife, and when i tried to make schwedenkreuz at a fast pace(0 camber) the rear end started to slide, as usual, when i applied some countersteer i ended up at the wall.
I was slowly increasing the rear camber, and the car started to feel more forgiving. When i reached -1.5 at the rear, i could make the same corner with the rear sliding a bit(porsche style) but without that sudden bite. More than -1.5, and i felt i was losing traction on corner exit.

Front camber helps me on turn in with heavy braking, but i lose traction on corner exit when the weight is transferred to the back again. So i have to find a good balance, depending on the track.

That said, camber on this game is really about driving style, personal taste, and the type of controller you are using.
I guess that drivers that use wheel, may not feel the need for it.

It's a win-lose situation.

 

[eclipsee]

There's a lot of useless chat in this thread (well, maybe not so useless as it can be entertaining) , I'm tempted to join the FITT tuner challenge, this way maybe some of you could prove me wrong.

Anyway, if camber is fixed, I wonder why I won the seasonal TT (500PP) of the non-racing car super lap at Mount Panorama, and why I'm holding the #1 spot in the current seasonal TT (450PP) at Tsukuba, because I was and I'm still using 0.0/0.0 camber in both events.

 

[Stotty]

There's a lot of useless chat in this thread (well, maybe not so useless as it can be entertaining) , I'm tempted to join the FITT tuner challenge, this way maybe some of you could prove me wrong.

Anyway, if camber is fixed, I wonder why I won the seasonal TT (500PP) of the non-racing car super lap at Mount Panorama, and why I'm holding the #1 spot in the current seasonal TT (450PP) at Tsukuba, because I was and I'm still using 0.0/0.0 camber in both events.

👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Get another Ramon who use camber

 

[Stotty]

Get another Ramon who use camber

As I think I might have said a few times, all the tunes we have visibility of from anyone anywhere near as fast as Ramon are using 0,0 camber.

There might be a trend there somewhere

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

As I think I might have said a few times, all the tunes we have visibility of from anyone anywhere near as fast as Ramon are using 0,0 camber.

There might be a trend there somewhere

Which is why we need another alien with camber to break the trend The only way we can find out is to see 2 similar pace alien battling it on seasonal TT, one with zero camber and another with camber.

If I have the replay I can see everything

 

[Stotty]

Which is why we need another alien with camber to break the trend The only way we can find out is to see 2 similar pace alien battling it on seasonal TT, one with zero camber and another with camber.

Just give Ramon a tune with camber and he'll tell you if it's faster on not.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Just give Ramon a tune with camber and he'll tell you if it's faster on not.

Doesn't work that way, my tune will kill him in a crash If you ever drive my cars, you'll know, tricky soap boxes. I don't know how aliens tune their cars, what sort of style they like or preference, it will be interesting though to see alien drivers taming my cars, never have alien giving feedback.

We need more aliens to take part, @BanditKarter22 or @Doodle, they made their own tune and can compete with ramon.

 

[eclipsee]

I'm open to test any car settings that you want with honest feedback by my side, not 10 laps but 1000 kms if needed, if camber works I won't refuse (as anyone) to be one or two tenths faster per minute due to camber benefits.
Tsukuba and Suzuka would be my track choices to test as I know them pretty well and in a MR car without wings if possible, I refuse to use racing tires though, PD did a really bad job about that due to its unexpected behaviour.

There are other aspects to consider, the car behaviour is not the same if you use a gamepad or a steering wheel, racing brakes or standard brakes, use of aids like ABS, active steering or SFR, all of this can mask things you tweak in the car settings.

I'm pretty sure other people would like to join to this camber test.

 

[DolHaus]

Camber is simply another tool to shape the way your car performs, its not strictly better or worse its just part of the bigger puzzle in the same way as every other tuning option.

For some people it will help, for others it will not.
On some cars it will be appropriate, on others its not necessary.
At some tracks it may give improvements, at others it might cost you time.

This is not a 🤬 swinging contest gentlemen, put your handbags away.
Instead of arguing about it why don't we discuss ways it can be used and why you might or might not want to use it?

 

[BanditKarter22]

Doesn't work that way, my tune will kill him in a crash If you ever drive my cars, you'll know, tricky soap boxes. I don't know how aliens tune their cars, what sort of style they like or preference, it will be interesting though to see alien drivers taming my cars, never have alien giving feedback.

We need more aliens to take part, @BanditKarter22 or @Doodle, they made their own tune and can compete with ramon.

I would love to do that if I had time, but at the moment I don't unfortunately! Not even switched on my PS3 in a month and a half...

 

[WhoosierGirl]

This is not a 🤬 swinging contest gentlemen, put your handbags away.
Instead of arguing about it why don't we discuss ways it can be used and why you might or might not want to use it?

I can't possibly win the 🤬 swinging contest, although I'm all in on being the judge

But, I would like an example of when and where someone might or might not use it.

 

[DolHaus]

I can't possibly win the 🤬 swinging contest, although I'm all in on being the judge

But, I would like an example of when and where someone might or might not use it.

Personally I've found it most effective on FF cars when trying to make them function on twisty tracks such as Eiger Nordwand, running a few degrees of camber on the front makes the turn in sharper and faster and the car less likely to spin the tyres up on exit. I've found the rear wheels also need a little bit of camber otherwise they slip a bit and cause a weird nodding effect as the car gains and loses traction through the bend.

 

[Robbks]

I'm open to test any car settings that you want with honest feedback
Tsukuba and Suzuka would be my track choices to test as I know them pretty well and in a MR car without wings if possible

I know that just about everyone here is much faster than I, but for me, testing with an MR car on a track like Tsukuba isn't going to favour well for camber.
Generally the MR cars rotate pretty well in GT6 with simple throttle movements and I've never felt much benefit from camber on Tsukuba for some reason, just something to do with corner radius and how the car is loaded through them

I'd feel a FR car (as you've said, no Aero) on Suzuka would be more beneficial to see the differences,
Particularly through the long sweeping section of esses to see how the car transitions and shifts it's weight around.

Personally I've got an F430 and an M3, both tuned for 550pp on SM/ SH tyres
the 430 is much faster through that section than the M3 and much easier to drive, lift-off, point it in, nail the throttle and it just turns through the corners with no effort.

 

[Robbks]

Test with a short section of track and the average speed/ time to get though it
Suzuka CIrcuit, from the Start line until the 100m marker just before turn 8.

only takes about 40 seconds

If you can't feel if it's working through there, then there's issues.
If you want to test to see it's effect on braking distance, then get to that marker and then stop the car.

 

[Le_Manuz]

Yesterday, i was trying to add some camber on the R8 LMP race car
i know that most of you said that you cannot just add camber to a car already done but well ..
i did as there isn't some good guide on how to do it from a fresh car

so i did with one technique described by someone on this forum on a car without under-steering
i added 2° on each side as i was running racing tires
i expected to have the rear sliding more than the front
(on real race car you can barely noticed camber at the rear but you really see there is a lot on the front)

so in my test, the car was under-steering
i finished it with 1° at the front and 1.5° at the rear and the car feels like with no camber (neutral)
the gain is not much but i can go faster in the curves

why less camber at the front than at the rear
is this because of too stiff front suspension ?
or because of PoDi messing around like with ride height reverted ?

 

[Robbks]

OK so I took my own advice
M3 coupe 07. Tuned to 550pp and SM tyres. TC and ABS on 0
2/2 brake balance on stock brakes.
And the rest is a pretty neutral setup
Springs 5.5/6.5
Dampers 4/4 : 6/5
ARB 4/5
Set camber and toe to zero. And just ran the complete Suzuka East circuit.
Running clean laps and only pushing 9/10 to keep it clean.
5 laps averaging 53.15sec

I then added 0.5 front camber.
Car immediately gained mid corner grip but lost a little stability and grip on turn in.
Result exactly the same lap times.
Brakes locked easier with wheel off-centre

Next was to add .05 front toe in.
Car was more stable at entry but not as grippy, gained a little mid corner grip but lost exit grip.
Result again was no difference in lap times.

Have not tested rear camber yet.
But acting as expected as far as I'm concerned.

There 'should' be a good combo of camber and toe that is faster and feels good.
But it's a lot of work for little gain and a car that's not as stable when you throw it over a kerb or get it crossed up.

 

[DolHaus]

Once you put camber on then you have a forced Toe In like effect 👍

 

[332i]

I generally use toe in up front. .7 is the most camber I have used on any car. Below 1 seems to net the best results. I was setting a car up last night and found the best result was at .4 or .5 I think and some toe in. I used toe out up front for a long time and now I just don't like the feeling. I never did IRL to begin with.

Once you put camber on then you have a forced Toe In like effect 👍

Other way around. Increased camber gives you toe out under load. Would obviously be at 0 toe under load if set to zero. As suspension compresses, wheel toes out. This is why I run toe in IRL with a fair amount of camber on my track car. Toe out can create bump steer and make the car feel dead up front. It can decrease turning radius, but when you picture toe out, you've got the outer wheel with the most pressure on it not turning in as much as the inside wheel. I feel I net more grip by having the outside tire that is being leaned on to angle inwards, but only very small amounts, so that they're not really fighting each other under load and you get the stability under braking.

I like toe in up front and toe out in the rear. A lot of people can't stand that and dislike the feeling, though and it takes me longer to get a tune that comes together nicely with toe in up front. Of course, not every car is the same. If I didn't use a low lock degree angle on my wheel, I probably wouldn't use toe out in the rear. It is much harder to control on most normal lock settings and it would probably not be too fun with a ds3 under braking, because you won't feel it about to go around on you when say...the tires are dying and you're racing with wear on. Toe out in the rear can cause that with fresh tires anyways. It all depends on how you like to swing the car into, through and out of a turn. Everyone has preferences. Toe out has worked for me very well, I just prefer the feeling of toe out and think it gives me more grip eight the proper camber angle, but that could also be the way I drive/my habits or driving styles with toe out vs toe in.

 

[DolHaus]

I generally use toe in up front. .7 is the most camber I have used on any car. Below 1 seems to net the best results. I was setting a car up last night and found the best result was at .4 or .5 I think and some toe in. I used toe out up front for a long time and now I just don't like the feeling. I never did IRL to begin with.

Other way around. Increased camber gives you toe out under load. Would obviously be at 0 toe under load if set to zero. As suspension compresses, wheel toes out. This is why I run toe in IRL with a fair amount of camber on my track car. Toe out can create bump steer and make the car feel dead up front. It can decrease turning radius, but when you picture toe out, you've got the outer wheel with the most pressure on it not turning in as much as the inside wheel. I feel I net more grip by having the outside tire that is being leaned on to angle inwards, but only very small amounts, so that they're not really fighting each other under load and you get the stability under braking.

I like toe in up front and toe out in the rear. A lot of people can't stand that and dislike the feeling, though and it takes me longer to get a tune that comes together nicely with toe in up front. Of course, not every car is the same. If I didn't use a low lock degree angle on my wheel, I probably wouldn't use toe out in the rear. It is much harder to control on most normal lock settings and it would probably not be too fun with a ds3 under braking, because you won't feel it about to go around on you when say...the tires are dying and you're racing with wear on. Toe out in the rear can cause that with fresh tires anyways. It all depends on how you like to swing the car into, through and out of a turn. Everyone has preferences. Toe out has worked for me very well, I just prefer the feeling of toe out and think it gives me more grip eight the proper camber angle, but that could also be the way I drive/my habits or driving styles with toe out vs toe in.

The effect of camber thrust means that the wheel is trying to arc inwards constantly (visualise a motorbike leaning to turn), technically this gives both Toe In and Toe Out but as you are only travelling forward the result force is more similar to the effect of Toe In because the wheel wants to travel along this arc towards the centre line of the car.
Adding Toe out will broaden this arc and make it less pronounced but there will be a permanent Toe In-like effect as long as camber is applied

 

[332i]

The effect of camber thrust means that the wheel is trying to arc inwards constantly (visualise a motorbike leaning to turn), technically this gives both Toe In and Toe Out but as you are only travelling forward the result force is more similar to the effect of Toe In because the wheel wants to travel along this arc towards the centre line of the car.
Adding Toe out will broaden this arc and make it less pronounced but there will be a permanent Toe In-like effect as long as camber is applied

There is a lot of literature out there on suspension geometrics that is worth reading. They toe out under load. Find a buddy with a car using 0 toe and stick a go pro pointed at the wheel or have someone sit on his radiator support and look at what the wheels do.

BMW liked to do 0 toe in the front and IIRC about 1/16th total toe-in for the rear. Not sure what they do for toe settings now that they use five link rear suspensions on the newer cars.

They did toe in on the rear to counter throttle lifted oversteer on the four link BMWs. They still turn in like monster even with toe in for the rear. Granted not much, but you can still see it via the human eye when you look straight down at it.

 

[332i]

Once you put camber on then you have a forced Toe In like effect 👍

This is what I corrected. This does the opposite, because when you load the outside tire, more force it put on it, which wants to pull it backwards. Your pushing against the wheel from ahead of it as your travelling forward. What happens when you jack a car up and push the front of a wheel? It turns to the outside. Toe out. It is not a motorcycle. The mass above the wheel is not leaning inwards, allowing for the opposite effect. Camber thrust between something with two wheels and four is very, very different. The car is leaning outwards...loading the outer wheel. Essentially, making an example using a motorcycle simulates or illustrates loading the inside and unloading the outer wheel completely. The opposite of an example of a car. You have no opposing wheel. If you run 0 toe on an alignment rack and then drive down the road, you have slight negative toe out and it furthers between geometry and loads/forces. Adding camber does not create, simulate or give off a similar effect of any toe in. Caster plays into all of this as well. Pull the top of the strut backwards from upright in relation to the spindle and now you are somewhat fighting back forces that push the wheel backwards and out.

I don't have the energy for this today, sorry. Dk what else to say or how to describe it. Camber = toe out as the suspension compresses. Camber = toe and when you're driving forward, most notably through a turn under high load. The more drag and forces pushing it back, the more it wants to steer away from the chassis with zero or negative toe and negative camber. Even 0 camber will go negative under load, because of the manner a control arm moves upwards at the outer end under load. Could run 0 camber and 0 toe, the wheel will still want to push back and turn out from the chassis. I can't think of situation where toe in is forced by adding camber. As I said, just pushing back on a wheel from the front with the front of a car jacked up and tell us what it did. Toe in counters those forces that want to pull the wheel out...like moving forwards...which again, naturally wants to pull the wheels outwards.

DolHaus believes the opposite. That adding camber forces a "permanent" toe in effect. To boot, the more your turn the wheel, the more that outside, loaded wheel does't want to turn in and it wants to toe out more so, because the forces fighting back at it are increasing. It is no longer merely an oncoming force that is being received. Setting toe in with camber will set the wheel closer to zero as it loads and received that oncoming force of the road and bumps you drive over. If you drive over a bump on the right wheel, your wheel jerks to the right, correct? If you drove over a sticky patch of road on the right side, it would pull you to the right correct? Right, because the oncoming forces is forcing the wheel out. It just gets worse the more you load it. That was just an example of the force the wheel is having to fight to stay straight.

So, no. Camber does no create or have some sort of effect of permanent toe in or any toe in. It is the exact opposite.

That is rhetorical, because I have no idea how else to spell it out. Talk about thrust as you wish. That is not what I disputed. I will be baffled if someone comes back and says threat an incoming force creates toe in. That is ridiculous. Camber or no camber. Which ever produces more grip at x point in time.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Not sure if GT6 model this unique traits that only occurs on certain suspension geometry on all cars, but after building variety of replicas, at least spring rate ratio ( front and rear ) works similar to real life on some cars with unique suspension geometry design and can be setup with very low spring rate or high at the rear which replicate real life result. At least 3 cars that I can think of, Ferrari F430 Scuderia, Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint 1600 GTA and Skyline KPGC10 Hakosuka has spring rate arrangement as in real life and works great when I built them as replica. The F430 Scud even uses similar wheel alignment. A good track setup IRL for F430 Scuderia has about 2.0 to 3.0 rear camber ( RE11 or Pilot Super Sports - CS tire) and still needs 0.50 degrees total toe in at the rear to reduce snap oversteer due to the massive toe out under load/compression. Does this happen in GT6 on the Scud ? Will need further tests

FF cars will have the front tire tend to toe in, while RWD cars will have front tires tend to toe out as it being "pushed" - when moving forward.

 

[Robbks]

@Ridox2JZGTE
Can you post a replica tune on The F430 Scud based on your info.
I have a decent tune on that now and is a very easy car to drive fast. I'd love to compare it to the RL Replica values.
EDIT: found it..
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...otabb-hondaaccord.294814/page-39#post-9746666

And the base for my current F430 (i tweaked the spring rates a little)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/tunes/ferrari-430-scuderia-07.499/

I do realise the effects of rolling resistance on toe (really only a factory due to compliance in suspension bushings, etc), but do we actually think PD have modelled dynamic toe..?
I doubt it, their toe angle is probably just +/- steering angle for each given wheel.
Also note that any driven axle will toe in under power

I don;t believe the permanent toe-in theory, it's all due to weight shift, dynamic camber and the effect that toe will have.
With camber set properly, as the car loads the outside tire mid-corner, the tyre is again flat on the road, giving maximum contact patch, having toe in at this point is essentially the same as turning the wheel harder,
but as you straighten up, you lose the contact patch that -ve camber camber has given you,
weight starts to transferr back to the inside wheel which also has -ve camber and still less contact patch size, but it's also got toe-in, but in the wrong direction, and you get understeer on exit as you've just lost a lot of grip.

this is where the rear comes into play,
A little "static" toe out down back will be overcome by driving forces, so now under acceleration your loaded outside rear wheel has toe-in, driving you in the direction you want to go, the inside wheel which isn't loaded as much (depending on LSD settings) may still have some toe-out from both the static alignment and the rolling forces. Either way, it's helping to get you through the corner exit.

As @332i has pointed out that little bit of toe out down back will help the car rotate when you're off the power on corner entry, but because the rear end kicking outwards on corner entry does "feel" like the rear end has let go, differentiating it from actual oversteer can be hard and lead to losing the rear end very quickly if it snaps