Can a car brake into a corner with ABS like in the game in real life?

[niky]

Of course, I'd pull the:

Acceptable User Policy

* You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

...card, but I might have a hard time proving the "knowingly" part. Of course, if he keeps posting unfounded stuff and bother without quoting sources, I will (pretty soon) ask him to stop.

 

[CSLACR]

Not that it will matter to Enzo...

The only way upgraded brakes in any way can ever improve a stopping distance is if the car's brake system currently does not have the power to lock it's wheels, which is pretty hard to find, maybe some older cars with a lot of extra sticky rubber, but even then if the brakes work to OEM standards, they still probably can for a single 60-0mph stop.

Some modern cars are actually appallingly trail-brake oversteer happy despite having ABS.

I feel like I touched on this subject recently... Got called full of it though...
Typically cars will lock the front first, but with a good ABS, the front will retain enough grip to lighten the rear, which then slides very easily, though it's hard to explain to people that haven't encountered it firsthand.

 

[niky]

Which is why I don't get into those "ABS vs Non-ABS / Oversteer-Understeer" arguments except to say: "It depends", because there are so many different factors that come into play, as well as specific ABS tuning, how sensitive the systems are, how many channels there are, etcetera ad nauseum, that the answer is highly dependent on the specific car and tires in question.

 

[Enzo309]

Power steering isn't active steering. It's power steering.



Glowing brakes indicate great stopping power? So my Sentra's 9-inch front discs glowed after a good thrash because they were great brakes? Try again.



Again... where's your source of information? I love watching you pull statistics out of thin air. A modern street going Civic or Corolla on normal tires produces over 0.85g of deceleration... even with rear drums. Remove ABS and give the Civic enough grip, and it'll be exceeding 1g... (given, of course... that the system has not heated up to the point where braking force decreases... see wall-of-text on previous page)

By the bye... if you get 0.6 g of deceleration from the air brakes alone, how is that not significant?



And you obviously know a lot about disc and caliper sizes, especially those infamous 5-inch Civic discs which I have yet to see you provide photographic or factual proof of.

With that much grip, it's likely the Civic's master cylinder can't provide enough clamping force, and even if it could, the brake lines from a Civic might not handle it (having popped a brake line at 160 km/h, I can tell you, it's not pretty). A Formula 1 car has a beefier hydraulic system, and twin, separate channels. It also has pretty big cooling ducts. And it'd be unfair to ask the Civic's street pads to do the duty... you'd need a race-spec pad with the same heat range as the F1 cars. Give it all of that, with the stock Civic caliper... probably wouldn't give you quite the stopping you want... but that's not down to the size of the brakes.

See, an F1 car is a bad example of the superiority of big disc and caliper size... since by regulations, that disc is about the same size as the one on a Civic Type R... less than 11" in diameter, with a small pad area.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5284.html

Oh, and note... that the article goes on to explain the carbon ceramic discs are there to save weight and because they operate at higher temperatures... not because they stop quicker.

Do note: The size of F1 brakes and the number of calipers and brake pads are restricted.

Would they work better with bigger and more? Yes. Any increase in size will decrease heat at the point where the pad hits the disc and increase longevity of the braking systems. I'm sure Red Bull would have liked that back in 09 and 10' when they had lots of heat issues with their brakes.

Would they stop shorter? No. Consider that with puny 11" discs, F1 cars already lock up their tires a lot, despite in-cabin driver controls which allow them to adjust brake bias, then it's obvious they've already got all the brake they need (at least over one lap).

you are correct component won't make much difference but disc size and calipers do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o04xyeL9gBw 5.8G of deceleration from current Formula One car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik9aEet5Um8 , bugatti veyron's wing produces .6 of a G deceleration from the wing alone. Tested near bugatti factory in france , some other info on the video are info from the bugatti engineers.

ya so pretty much facts not spreadsheets

but disc size does and caliper size does make the difference because even the FIA which runs F1 has regulations on brake sizes and caliper sizes and component sizes because if they were to have no reguations , formula one cars could brake even quicker.

your knowledge and point of view are very much from a honda civic , mazada's , toyota's perspective in brakes , all entry level cars to be honest but that doesn't change my respect for you because I know your good at your knowledge.

 

[Sampyla20plus]

I havent ever owned a car that has ABS brakes, I just dont feel comfortable with such invention, during winters in here Finland I see alot of cars with ABS brakes crashing on each other, not sure is it because people are so relaxed about their safety electronical gadgets they got these days, while the actual driving capabilites are lowered alot since 80's. in GT5, ABS off does work exactly like in RL, I tend to "tap" on brakes not to make em go locked, which also works in RL, use the engine braking and it goes alot more smoother too. Cant say does ABS feel the same in GT5 since there is not many cars I've driven which has ABS.

 

[Enzo309]

Depends on the tyres you're using in the game, but safe to say the game is easier on you than real life.


Edit : Above arguement : This is the same Enzo that argued that the Ferrari Enzo had more downforce and would produce better laptimes than a real racing car and that the in game representation (that people had clearly proved destroying real world performance) was too slow. His reasoning for the Enzo being apparently underperforming was that PD did not want to properly represent the car because it would outperform many racing cars and this would look bad? Or something along those lines. This arguement of his went on for weeks with him vs the forum.

You will argue with him for weeks, doesn't matter how wrong he is and how right you are. Word of warning.

real life is harder yet other people are saying its impossible for the no abs
the enzo is for sure faster in a straight line than a DTM car but I never said anything about it faster on a track than a racing car.

 

[niky]

you are correct component won't make much difference but disc size and calipers do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o04xyeL9gBw 5.8G of deceleration from current Formula One car

Still proves you can stop incredibly quick with an 11-inch disc, thank you for proving my point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik9aEet5Um8 , bugatti veyron's wing produces .6 of a G deceleration from the wing alone. Tested near bugatti factory in france , some other info on the video are info from the bugatti engineers.

ya so pretty much facts not spreadsheets

Those spreadsheets were culled from AutoBild, which did the testing. Facts. Not promotional videos. And I don't see how the wing providing "only" 0.6 g of braking force supports your argument... because it doesn't.

but disc size does and caliper size does make the difference because even the FIA which runs F1 has regulations on brake sizes and caliper sizes and component sizes because if they were to have no reguations , formula one cars could brake even quicker.

And you didn't read the part where I explained what benefits those bigger discs would have? No. Did you read the part where I explained they wouldn't change stopping distances? No.

your knowledge and point of view are very much from a honda civic , mazada's , toyota's perspective in brakes , all entry level cars to be honest but that doesn't change my respect for you because I know your good at your knowledge.

And did you read the part where I stated I've tested Subaru WRX STIs on the racetrack, as well as high end luxury cars from Jaguar, Volvo and BMW? No.

------

Want to prove that bigger discs and calipers stop a car faster? Find a source that says that swapping a bigger disc onto a car makes it brake in much less distance. Find a source that says that having the biggest discs automatically results in the shortest stopping distances.

How about this?

Ultimate Street Car Challenge

Stopping less than 3 feet longer than last year's winner, Matt's green Supra with stock brakes with Carbotech Panther Plus pads and ABS impressed with a 109.2-foot stopping distance.

Add almost 13 feet and you get a tie for third place. Rich Eager's red Supra, using a 13-inch StopTech big brake setup hauled down in 122.3 feet, as did Jay's Ultima, which uses Indycar brakes and is the lightest car in the contest, although he struggled with rear-brake bias problems.

Less than 3 feet separated the stopping distance of the two Eclipses, using essentially the same StopTech big brake packages and Pagid Orange pads.

Brake hardware borrowed from the Audi S8 and consisting of 13-inch rotors and Brembos in the front and 11.7-inch S8 calipers in the rear had trouble slowing the Teutonic behemoth, which landed in seventh place.

Despite last year's winning Viper decelerating like it hit the flight deck, this year's snake came in second-to-last place (of running cars), despite 13-inch rotors all around and every part of the braking system upgraded.

A Supra, with stock 11-inch rotors and calipers, outbraked a whole bunch of cars with 13 inch rotors and multi-piston calipers.

Know why? Pads. Tires.

It lost only to a car fitted with 14-inch rotors.

Know why? Hoosiers.

In other years, completely stock cars have won or almost won the braking challenge.

In European Car's challenges (no online scans, but I have the magazines), stock cars often are at the front or near the front of the pack when it comes to braking.

-----

For a single stop test, size doesn't matter. If you have enough brakes, you have enough brakes. Every time a magazine changes a car's system out to the big brake kit with the stock master cylinder and bias, they find that the car either stops in the same distance or takes longer to stop.

 

[CSLACR]

Which is why I don't get into those "ABS vs Non-ABS / Oversteer-Understeer" arguments except to say: "It depends", because there are so many different factors that come into play, as well as specific ABS tuning, how sensitive the systems are, how many channels there are, etcetera ad nauseum, that the answer is highly dependent on the specific car and tires in question.

Probably true, but I guess I'll have to drive a FWD car that doesn't do it before I can call it "highly dependent".
As of now, I have to see it as "very common" for FWD cars to over-steer under truly hard braking while cornering. (I've heard the same for pickups too.)

 

[niky]

In my experience, hatchbacks, typically, or poorly set up sedans (like a Corolla)... give it enough grip or enough rear suspension, and it won't happen.

 

[CSLACR]

In my experience, hatchbacks, typically, or poorly set up sedans (like a Corolla)... give it enough grip or enough rear suspension, and it won't happen.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
You mean that it's preventable? Or that it's uncommon?

 

[niky]

Preventable, and it depends. Depends on whether the ABS allows enough grip at the front to allow weight transfer to cause the rear end to break away, but doesn't kick in early enough to prevent the weight transfer in the first place.

My car is exceptionally stable under trail-braking. I know of a few others that aren't.

 

[gtnoobie]

Some cars like Nissan latio, Toyota corolla are a lot easier to do handbrake turns vs say a Mazda mps, evo x or even Mazda 3. This means the oversteer during hard brake and fast steering happens a lot more for these cars. Unfortunately no latio or bread and butter corolla exist in gt5 to try out if it is the same

 

[Enzo309]

Preventable, and it depends. Depends on whether the ABS allows enough grip at the front to allow weight transfer to cause the rear end to break away, but doesn't kick in early enough to prevent the weight transfer in the first place.

My car is exceptionally stable under trail-braking. I know of a few others that aren't.

A Honda civic's stopping power is not strong enough to transfer weight from the rear to the front to spin the car at a corner.

+ bigger disc and calipers do stop the car faster. I know exactly how your thinking of it :/ it's like a Honda civic with abs , it will stop the same with bigger disc and callipers but your wrong because even without abs it won't lockup meaning with abs it can brake further.

 

[CSLACR]

A Honda civic's stopping power is not strong enough to transfer weight from the rear to the front to spin the car at a corner.

+ bigger disc and calipers do stop the car faster. I know exactly how your thinking of it :/ it's like a Honda civic with abs , it will stop the same with bigger disc and callipers but your wrong because even without abs it won't lockup meaning with abs it can brake further.

Not a word of that is true.

What's with you and Honda Civic's? You must own one with a terrible braking system, that needs replaced.

 

[mallyauto86]

bleh just so you know my honda civic ek9 has 300mm rotors and 4 pot brakes ... does it stop quicker than with the standard brakes ? URM NOPE

does it get brake fade no.... but on standard brakes it did....

only reason i did the upgrade was because bigger brakes get rid of the heat quicker there for you can hit the track longer. other than that it's pointless though they do feel sharper and have more response they dont get me stopping quicker... btw i dont have abs ..

 

[wicken]

I'm sorry if I am bumping this thread but I would like to know how much ABS simulating from GT5 do you think current cars use in real life. Is it 10?

 

[amar212]

... I would like to know how much ABS simulating from GT5 do you think current cars use in real life. Is it 10?

GT5 does not simulate real-life ABS by no mean - and nor does any other game to be honest.

*ABS* in GT5 is just a tentative name for a ordinary braking-assist, probably used in order to be easier to comprehend what it does.

However, *ABS* in GT5 acts more like some kind of complex driving assist, where it prevents slippage of the tyres, nullifies the effects of weight-shift on suspension and reduces effects of lateral weight-transfer while turning.

So answer to your question is "zero". *ABS* in GT5 does not simulate the real-life ABS effect and it can't be compared to real-life counterpart.

Real-life ABS is much more unforgiving than one represented in any driving-game, because it can save you from locking the brakes and loosing grip on tyres but it could never save you from the manoeuvres made possible by its virtual (miss)interpretations throughout the genre.

 

[JDMKING13]

I think FM4 does a pretty good with ABS.

 

[XEPEGTP]

ABS off all day, with a few exceptions.

IT will totally change ur driving style, but requires a light thumb(or Left\Right foot) and concentration to stay on the road, but braking points change, corner technique changes, weight shift, gear shifting must be rev matched, etc, but it definitely adds another dimension.

However brake balance must be set for every car, that 7-4 wouldnt work, the brakes would be too sensitive and you will lock without even going halfway up the Brake Meter.

It teaches you to drive clean (hard braking must be done in straight line and forget about midcorner braking) and really makes you respect the car and track and conditions as opposed to relying on driver Aids to save your life on a hard downhill bomb in the rain at the ring.

 

[OK8]

LFS has pretty realistic ABS on some cars.

 

[JDMKING13]

ABS off all day, with a few exceptions.

IT will totally change ur driving style, but requires a light thumb(or Left\Right foot) and concentration to stay on the road, but braking points change, corner technique changes, weight shift, gear shifting must be rev matched, etc, but it definitely adds another dimension.

However brake balance must be set for every car, that 7-4 wouldnt work, the brakes would be too sensitive and you will lock without even going halfway up the Brake Meter.

It teaches you to drive clean (hard braking must be done in straight line and forget about midcorner braking) and really makes you respect the car and track and conditions as opposed to relying on driver Aids to save your life on a hard downhill bomb in the rain at the ring.

This man speaks the truth and I'm glad he is a PGTR REP.

 

[Griffith500]

LFS has pretty realistic ABS on some cars.

Yeah, it's pretty cool, although it can shove nasties through the FFB at times. One of the best attempts at ABS simulation I know of, though.

 

[CSLACR]

I'm sorry if I am bumping this thread but I would like to know how much ABS simulating from GT5 do you think current cars use in real life. Is it 10?

Well...

GT5 does not simulate real-life ABS by no mean - and nor does any other game to be honest.

*ABS* in GT5 is just a tentative name for a ordinary braking-assist, probably used in order to be easier to comprehend what it does.

However, *ABS* in GT5 acts more like some kind of complex driving assist, where it prevents slippage of the tyres, nullifies the effects of weight-shift on suspension and reduces effects of lateral weight-transfer while turning.

So answer to your question is "zero". *ABS* in GT5 does not simulate the real-life ABS effect and it can't be compared to real-life counterpart.

Real-life ABS is much more unforgiving than one represented in any driving-game, because it can save you from locking the brakes and loosing grip on tyres but it could never save you from the manoeuvres made possible by its virtual (miss)interpretations throughout the genre.

The opposite spin to this is that some of us do not believe that having ABS on has any effect on anything besides controlling wheel lock.

I, for example, have tried both with and without ABS and don't believe is nullifies the effects of weight-shift on suspension or reduce effects of lateral weight transfer while turning. Not in the least.

In my opinion, the ABS in GT5 is an extremely well functioning, high-tech ABS system, which controls the amount of braking pressure to individual wheels while still allowing small amounts of lock.
That is all it does though.

I do very much agree with amar that it is generally far more stable in GT5 than it is in real life. Quite a substantial bit, unless you get into tuning the cars to handle more like real-world cars. Than it becomes a matter of managing the brakes entering corners not unlike real-life.

 

[Griffith500]

You cannot have "small amounts of lock". The wheels either stop rotating, or they don't.

With ABS on in GT5, the wheels never stop rotating unless you pull the handbrake or the car itself has stopped (and even then, it's not a given...)

The very fact that the ABS scales the braking power per wheel does mean it "nullifies" the effects of weight transfer (that being desired for "transferring grip" to help the car to turn in). This is because the outside wheels can take more braking power than the inside wheels when they're loaded up. What does that do to the effective turning (yaw) rate?

 

[CSLACR]

You cannot have "small amounts of lock". The wheels either stop rotating, or they don't.

With ABS on in GT5, the wheels never stop rotating unless you pull the handbrake or the car itself has stopped (and even then, it's not a given...)

The very fact that the ABS scales the braking power per wheel does mean it "nullifies" the effects of weight transfer (that being desired for "transferring grip" to help the car to turn in). This is because the outside wheels can take more braking power than the inside wheels when they're loaded up. What does that do to the effective turning (yaw) rate?

You absolutely can, and 99%+ of cars with ABS in real life achieve exactly that. Don't be silly.

It's still nothing more than real-world ABS systems do, which is transfer braking power between wheels. Until it does something extra, it's not incredibly unlike real life.

Now, changing the brake bias on any stock car, to whatever floats your boat so driving without ABS is easiest?
That's nothing like real life.

 

[Morgoth_666]

You absolutely can, and 99%+ of cars with ABS in real life achieve exactly that. Don't be silly.

It's still nothing more than real-world ABS systems do, which is transfer braking power between wheels. Until it does something extra, it's not incredibly unlike real life.

Now, changing the brake bias on any stock car, to whatever floats your boat so driving without ABS is easiest?
That's nothing like real life.

Neither is driving with GT5's default brake pressures. With a bit of study, you probably could get the car's balance very close to real-world performance, but you can be sure it won't be 5/5 in almost any car.

 

[OK8]

Stock cars don't come out of the factory with brake balances that lock the rears every time you press the pedal. Everyone who has driven a car knows this.

 

[Griffith500]

You absolutely can, and 99%+ of cars with ABS in real life achieve exactly that. Don't be silly.

It's still nothing more than real-world ABS systems do, which is transfer braking power between wheels. Until it does something extra, it's not incredibly unlike real life.

Now, changing the brake bias on any stock car, to whatever floats your boat so driving without ABS is easiest?
That's nothing like real life.

You know there's nothing wrong with using the ABS in the game, though right? Nobody's pointing at you and laughing at you for it. And even if they were, what does it really matter?

I don't know how many times it needs to be said: the ABS in GT5 reacts instantaneously and perfectly proportionally. No such real-world system exists, or will ever exist.
There are other issues with turning ABS off that cannot, and probably will not ever be explained, because it's almost impossible to properly test for. But, one small example: why does brushing the brakes mid-corner with ABS off cause the car to "shimmy" sideways a touch, but doing the same with ABS on doesn't?

And I'm glad you now recognise that ABS does more than just "controlling wheel lock". But apparently you don't mean "lock", you mean slip ratio (a locked wheel has a slip ratio of -1). Just so you know.

 

[JDMKING13]

You know there's nothing wrong with using the ABS in the game, though right? Nobody's pointing at you and laughing at you for it. And even if they were, what does it really matter?

I don't know how many times it needs to be said: the ABS in GT5 reacts instantaneously and perfectly proportionally. No such real-world system exists, or will ever exist.
There are other issues with turning ABS off that cannot, and probably will not ever be explained, because it's almost impossible to properly test for. But, one small example: why does brushing the brakes mid-corner with ABS off cause the car to "shimmy" sideways a touch, but doing the same with ABS on doesn't?

And I'm glad you now recognise that ABS does more than just "controlling wheel lock". But apparently you don't mean "lock", you mean slip ratio (a locked wheel has a slip ratio of -1). Just so you know.

Griff don't waste your time bro. He will never admit it.

 

[CSLACR]

Neither is driving with GT5's default brake pressures. With a bit of study, you probably could get the car's balance very close to real-world performance, but you can be sure it won't be 5/5 in almost any car.

I disagree that 5/5 represents 50/50 brake bias, but rather reflects stock brake bias, and you can change proportion from there.
0 isn't 0%, and 200% brake pressure isn't possible, so why would 5/5 represent 50/50?

Stock cars don't come out of the factory with brake balances that lock the rears every time you press the pedal. Everyone who has driven a car knows this.

And you don't think a lack of natural forces and feedback has anything to do with difficulty managing braking in this video game?

You know there's nothing wrong with using the ABS in the game, though right? Nobody's pointing at you and laughing at you for it. And even if they were, what does it really matter?

I don't know how many times it needs to be said: the ABS in GT5 reacts instantaneously and perfectly proportionally. No such real-world system exists, or will ever exist.
There are other issues with turning ABS off that cannot, and probably will not ever be explained, because it's almost impossible to properly test for. But, one small example: why does brushing the brakes mid-corner with ABS off cause the car to "shimmy" sideways a touch, but doing the same with ABS on doesn't?

And I'm glad you now recognise that ABS does more than just "controlling wheel lock". But apparently you don't mean "lock", you mean slip ratio (a locked wheel has a slip ratio of -1). Just so you know.

My favorite part is the "will ever exist". Enjoyed that.

As I said, start tuning your cars so they don't under steer like a dump truck, as most stock cars in GT5 do, and you'll have no problem finding how and where the ABS in GT5 is far from this perfect system you've made it out to be.

But no, if you drive an under steering car around with ABS on, it will be very stable in GT5. Shocker.

I guess last, would you like me to reference everything that refers to it as lock, to demonstrate how "slip ratio" is not the only term used, or are you as informed as you make yourself out to be?