Can a car brake into a corner with ABS like in the game in real life?

[Enzo309]

F1, GT1, DTM and for top levels of motorsport they don't allow ABS but it wouldn't matter anyway because anyone who races in such level are capable of anything. They do lock up a lot especially in DTM , even with slick tyre.

In endurance races like Le Mans , they are allowed to have all aids in the world so it's really all about the car in terms of endurance racing.

GT5's no abs is definitely nice and genuine although I know atleast 90% can't believe its real ^_^ just like the g force in F1 , its forces up to 5-6g , 5x the driver's own body weight + his body weight but people don't actually believe it

 

[gtnoobie]

Just speaking from real life experience from 2 different advance driving training I attended.
1.Abs is a lot more jerky than in game for my car (Mazda axela) and Mercedes c class.
2. Abs allows me to turn slightly during emergency. Similar to what I experience in game.
3. It is probably easier to spin my ff car in real life than in gt5 but not by much. But like in gt5, spinning is easier with hard brake, release then steer then handbrake ( handbrake turn and reverse handbrake turning) than with full brake on and steering. Somewhat similar to gt5 in that respect. Then again I drive with sports hard in game while in real life, I don't know if falken fk452 or azenis st115 equivalent is comfort soft, medium or sh. Also we are training in a car park with intentionally wet floor so grip is low. For other circuit, the car understeer and behave similar to gt5.
4. Engaging emergency abs at high speed (170kph to 90kph) is scary but do allow steering as I avoided a lorry that change lane for no reason.
5. As a add on, a crash does feel as unimpressive as in gt5 for speed below 35kph. My car remains fully in control despite a full on side slide to the carpark curb.

 

[Griffith500]

...

Obviously he means ABS in the game, and his point is that in GT5, cars under-steer to much while braking with ABS on, many real life cars will spin with full brake power and hard turning, the rest of this section I quoted is irrelevant.

I don't like to assume, "obvious" or otherwise. The rest of the quotation is irrelevant, since I agreed with those points.

But we're just talking about GT5, and how the cars should react using ABS vs how they do react in the game.

Are you ... ?

I agree, but the catch is many people think the car should go straight with ABS, when the reality is it should turn, and if anything, spin easier for most drivers then without ABS.
And trust me, it's not just the DC5, it's most FF cars from what I've seen. (haven't owned another drive train type yet.)

And yes, if anyone is wondering, I always find a safe off road place to test cars I buy out, 'tis better to know what your car will do before an emergency situation then to "learn" in the middle of one.

... it doesn't look like it. At least, it's no different to the kinds of misconceptions I was talking about. Stop looking for arguments where there isn't one.

Turn ABS off and the "morbid" understeer disappears.

 

[CSLACR]

I don't like to assume, "obvious" or otherwise. The rest of the quotation is irrelevant, since I agreed with those points.

When it's that obvious you can make a judgement call, notice I did it?

Are you ... ?

No meaning here, can't possibly guess what context to take this in.

... it doesn't look like it. At least, it's no different to the kinds of misconceptions I was talking about. Stop looking for arguments where there isn't one.

Turn ABS off and the "morbid" understeer disappears.

Looking for arguments?
I said I disagree with the way abs works in GT5, isn't that what this thread is about?

Turn ABS off and the "morbid" understeer disappears.

I shouldn't have to. If anything, on many cars, over-steer should be increased by having abs turned on.

The only thing I see is that you started preaching about real world driving technique, and I'm here to discuss the fallacies of GT5's implementation of anti-lock braking systems.

I wasn't "picking a bone" or saying you said anything different, just that ramblings of real world citizen safety practice is irrelevant to the topic at hand. You mentioned how you can over-steer without abs, which is fine, but you shouldn't have to turn abs off to be able to spin on the brakes, if anything, it's more likely irl then with abs.

 

[Griffith500]

When it's that obvious you can make a judgement call, notice I did it?


No meaning here, can't possibly guess what context to take this in.


Looking for arguments?
I said I disagree with the way abs works in GT5, isn't that what this thread is about?

I shouldn't have to. If anything, on many cars, over-steer should be increased by having abs turned on.

The only thing I see is that you started preaching about real world driving technique, and I'm here to discuss the fallacies of GT5's implementation of anti-lock braking systems.

I wasn't "picking a bone" or saying you said anything different, just that ramblings of real world citizen safety practice is irrelevant to the topic at hand. You mentioned how you can over-steer without abs, which is fine, but you shouldn't have to turn abs off to be able to spin on the brakes, if anything, it's more likely irl then with abs.

Yet you include your own "ramblings" of real world experiences - where do we draw the line? I wasn't attacking anyone, yet you tear at my post as though I were? Like I said: stop looking for an argument.

Besides, you're categorically wrong, there is no way to say that ABS will make any car more or less "easy to spin" (whatever that means). It depends on so many factors; yet more misconceptions. You might be on a learning journey here, and that's fine, but you've repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding when it comes to vehicle dynamics, so it's hard to see you talk of realism.

 

[Enzo309]

Yet you include your own "ramblings" of real world experiences - where do we draw the line? I wasn't attacking anyone, yet you tear at my post as though I were? Like I said: stop looking for an argument.

Besides, you're categorically wrong, there is no way to say that ABS will make any car more or less "easy to spin" (whatever that means). It depends on so many factors; yet more misconceptions. You might be on a learning journey here, and that's fine, but you've repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding when it comes to vehicle dynamics, so it's hard to see you talk of realism.

its because too many people misunderstand the difference between 5 inch honda civic brakes and 15 inch mclaren slr brakes , its calipers are like 5x bigger. And the component has a big difference too , carbon or ceramic or both produces a lot lot more friction than steel or cast iron.

in a honda civic w/abs off , you can brake hard and the lock up won't even be there if the tyre's and road conditions were fine.

but that's because civic brake disc's and calipers are so small that even if you brake so hard the lock up isn't that bad assuming it would lock up , lol.

Most roadcars or high performance ones have ABS anyway

remember this , there is a massive difference between brakes of a civic and brakes of a mclaren SLR

in terms of stopping distance , you can let a honda civic w/abs go 100-0 kmh and a mclaren SLR would beat it from dead stop 0-100-0 kmh , it wont even be close but both cars have ABS so if you take the ABS off

A honda civic would lock up or not even if the road and tyre conditions were fine.

A mclaren SLR with road tyre's and without ABS would lockup right away , its disc are pure ceramic and the calipers are set to maximum.

In racing cars like gt1 , dtm (no abs), you always go 200 or 300 easy then on a chicane you always brake as hard as possible , even with slick tyre's they lockup very easily even with a balanced brake setup , In f1 the lock up's are not so bad like in DTM but in corners low speed and medium speed braking they still do lock up a lot, even at a chicane when your about to enter a chicane.

so you can't really compare your roadcar even without abs to racing cars without abs

 

[CSLACR]

Yet you include your own "ramblings" of real world experiences - where do we draw the line? I wasn't attacking anyone, yet you tear at my post as though I were? Like I said: stop looking for an argument.

Besides, you're categorically wrong, there is no way to say that ABS will make any car more or less "easy to spin" (whatever that means). It depends on so many factors; yet more misconceptions. You might be on a learning journey here, and that's fine, but you've repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding when it comes to vehicle dynamics, so it's hard to see you talk of realism.

Well, if you have proof cars with abs don't turn as well under hard braking, I'm just dying to see it.
And you need to turn to spin out...

Pretty vague response to tell me how full of it I am though.

But since you already can't understand the difference between this:

However, this mentality (again, not accusing anyone here) I sometimes see of "oh I can do what I want, the car has these safety features" is one that can **** right off, for me. Nothing more dangerous than nonchalantly, ignorantly piloting a deadly weapon. ABS, DSC, traction control etc. will not cover all your mistakes, you still have to drive properly.

And this:

I agree, but the catch is many people think the car should go straight with ABS, when the reality is it should turn, and if anything, spin easier for most drivers then without ABS.
And trust me, it's not just the DC5, it's most FF cars from what I've seen. (haven't owned another drive train type yet.)

And yes, if anyone is wondering, I always find a safe off road place to test cars I buy out, 'tis better to know what your car will do before an emergency situation then to "learn" in the middle of one.

Yours is complaining about people believing driving aids will make them blah blah blah.

Mine is about what really happens in many FF cars in the real world.

If you can post showing that you understand how mine is relevant to the discussion, and yours is not, we can continue, if not, have a nice day.

 

[niky]

its because too many people misunderstand the difference between 5 inch honda civic brakes and 15 inch mclaren slr brakes , its calipers are like 5x bigger. And the component has a big difference too , carbon or ceramic or both produces a lot lot more friction than steel or cast iron.

It doesn't matter how good your brakes are. If you don't have grip, you can't stop.

Or, to put it another way... give that McLaren the same puny 175mm wide long-life road tires that are on the Civic and it won't brake anywhere near as well as the Civic.

in a honda civic w/abs off , you can brake hard and the lock up won't even be there if the tyre's and road conditions were fine.

but that's because civic brake disc's and calipers are so small that even if you brake so hard the lock up isn't that bad assuming it would lock up , lol.

You have a terribly underbraked Civic. I've had no trouble locking up the tires on most Civics while braking with the standard brakes. Though I don't know any Civic with five inch front brakes... as that would mean your brakes don't extend past the wheel hubs.

Most roadcars or high performance ones have ABS anyway

The McLaren F1 doesn't. And it takes merely two seconds to brake down from 100 km/h.

remember this , there is a massive difference between brakes of a civic and brakes of a mclaren SLR

in terms of stopping distance , you can let a honda civic w/abs go 100-0 kmh and a mclaren SLR would beat it from dead stop 0-100-0 kmh , it wont even be close but both cars have ABS so if you take the ABS off

A honda civic would lock up or not even if the road and tyre conditions were fine.

A mclaren SLR with road tyre's and without ABS would lockup right away , its disc are pure ceramic and the calipers are set to maximum.

In racing cars like gt1 , dtm (no abs), you always go 200 or 300 easy then on a chicane you always brake as hard as possible , even with slick tyre's they lockup very easily even with a balanced brake setup , In f1 the lock up's are not so bad like in DTM but in corners low speed and medium speed braking they still do lock up a lot, even at a chicane when your about to enter a chicane.

so you can't really compare your roadcar even without abs to racing cars without abs

How many times have you braked a car... I mean... reallly braked a car? Unless you have chinese brake pads made out of recycled vinyl and rear drums the size of coke cans, braking is usually a product of how good your rubber is.

Last year, we road-tested over four dozen different cars on the racetrack. Absolutely everything that wasn't a commercial vehicle with drum brakes and a master cylinder from a Chinese motorbike locked their tires and triggered ABS under braking. Everything. Corollas (which are woefully underbraked), Fiestas, Mazda2s, Suburbans... Everything.

Your lovely McLaren SLR is quoted to go from 100 km/h to 0 in 36 meters. That's about the same as a Subaru WRX STI (35.6 meters, warm weather, dry, as per AutoBild), which doesn't have 15 inch carbon-ceramic brakes. In our testing on a wet track, we got 36.5 meters... that's in the wet. And then a Volvo S60, which doesn't even have cross-drilled brakes like the STI or the ultra-aggressive rubber, did it in 37 meters. And then a Corolla, which has tiny brakes and even worse rubber, did it in just 38 meters.

The real reason sportscars and supercars like the SLR have big, carbon-ceramic brakes is heat. Brake discs are a heat sink. They absorb the heat from the friction and keep them from burning up the pads or the hydraulic fluid in the pistons. With carbon-ceramic, you're protecting the disc itself from heat, to boot... There is no other reason to have brakes beyond a certain size.

There are so many different factors that go into braking that we could spend all month talking about them. But speaking from a position of experience, having owned really cruddy (non-ABS equipped) cars equipped with really sticky rubber, yes, it is possible to lock brakes up on a road car with R-Comps, depending on the brake bias, aggressiveness of the pads and how much clamping force you can get out of the pistons.

 

[gtnoobie]

Great points Niky.
In short,
ABS= allows some steering during braking, reduce risk of spinning during wheel lock, similar braking distance compared to threshold braking in well implemented ABS, comparatively shorter braking distance compared to wheel lock situation as static friction (with limited 9% slip) exceeds dynamic friction.
Big brake and disc = less fade with repeated hard braking.
Ceramic pad = less fade as well
Stickier compound wheels= shorter braking distance regardless of size of brake in early brake testing. As rotor and brake warms, some loss of braking effectiveness due to overheated brake mechanism.
As brake fade presumably don't exist in GT5 unless someone prove either way (though to some extent, simulated by warm tires which speeds up wheel lock), wheel size and therefore brake rotor and brake piston size matters little.

 

[Griffith500]

Well, if you have proof cars with abs don't turn as well under hard braking, I'm just dying to see it.
And you need to turn to spin out...

Well, sure that's what "spin" means, the car "turns". Although I think you meant turn the steering wheel, which is still wrong; more misconceptions?

Also, it's you who claimed that "many people think the car should go straight with ABS, when the reality is it should turn, and if anything, spin easier for most drivers then without ABS." so the burden of proof is upon you.

Pretty vague response to tell me how full of it I am though.

But since you already can't understand the difference between this:

And this:

Yours is complaining about people believing driving aids will make them blah blah blah.

Superficially, sure. It's quoted out of context now, but it added to the content of the rest of the post. You are so very keen to assume things; as I said: I'm not. But you carry on making these "judgment calls". 👍

Mine is about what really happens in many FF cars in the real world.

How many? And again, where's your "proof"?

If you can post showing that you understand how mine is relevant to the discussion, and yours is not, we can continue, if not, have a nice day.

No, what happened is you tore my post apart, for no real discernible reason. Did you think I was attacking you? Did you even notice that it was in two separate parts?

The fact is, most people haven't a scooby when it comes to how the various components of a car actually interact with each other, or with the road. That's my point, and that's why anecdotal "evidence" is often not to be trusted. This includes people who think ABS, TCS, DSC etc. can cover their mistakes (like I said, I wasn't accusing anyone - it's a general observation, and one or two specific experiences...). YellowG1's post illustrated that ABS does not necessarily stop a spin from occurring, so I commented further for completeness.

It's odd, actually, since we seem to agree on the main point (GT5's ABS is inaccurate), hence why it seems to me you're looking for an argument. But now there's your idea that ABS is more likely to make your car spin, which I would dearly like to hear the reasoning behind.

"Have a nice day" yourself.

 

[Enzo309]

It doesn't matter how good your brakes are. If you don't have grip, you can't stop.

Or, to put it another way... give that McLaren the same puny 175mm wide long-life road tires that are on the Civic and it won't brake anywhere near as well as the Civic.



You have a terribly underbraked Civic. I've had no trouble locking up the tires on most Civics while braking with the standard brakes. Though I don't know any Civic with five inch front brakes... as that would mean your brakes don't extend past the wheel hubs.



The McLaren F1 doesn't. And it takes merely two seconds to brake down from 100 km/h.



How many times have you braked a car... I mean... reallly braked a car? Unless you have chinese brake pads made out of recycled vinyl and rear drums the size of coke cans, braking is usually a product of how good your rubber is.

Last year, we road-tested over four dozen different cars on the racetrack. Absolutely everything that wasn't a commercial vehicle with drum brakes and a master cylinder from a Chinese motorbike locked their tires and triggered ABS under braking. Everything. Corollas (which are woefully underbraked), Fiestas, Mazda2s, Suburbans... Everything.

Your lovely McLaren SLR is quoted to go from 100 km/h to 0 in 36 meters. That's about the same as a Subaru WRX STI (35.6 meters, warm weather, dry, as per AutoBild), which doesn't have 15 inch carbon-ceramic brakes. In our testing on a wet track, we got 36.5 meters... that's in the wet. And then a Volvo S60, which doesn't even have cross-drilled brakes like the STI or the ultra-aggressive rubber, did it in 37 meters. And then a Corolla, which has tiny brakes and even worse rubber, did it in just 38 meters.

The real reason sportscars and supercars like the SLR have big, carbon-ceramic brakes is heat. Brake discs are a heat sink. They absorb the heat from the friction and keep them from burning up the pads or the hydraulic fluid in the pistons. With carbon-ceramic, you're protecting the disc itself from heat, to boot... There is no other reason to have brakes beyond a certain size.

There are so many different factors that go into braking that we could spend all month talking about them. But speaking from a position of experience, having owned really cruddy (non-ABS equipped) cars equipped with really sticky rubber, yes, it is possible to lock brakes up on a road car with R-Comps, depending on the brake bias, aggressiveness of the pads and how much clamping force you can get out of the pistons.

first of all your "quoted SLR" is false , the SLR mclaren has done 200-0 in 70 meters , so it does brake a lot faster for 100-0

you were most probably saying 100 mph - 0 in 36 meters :/ I'm sorry but the same cars you tested , mazda's and honda civic's won't brake as quick as a mclaren's. not even slightly.

I don't see any reason why you should quote when your ending up saying the same thing like "It doesn't matter how good your brakes are. If you don't have grip, you can't stop." that's why when you turn off ABS you'll see what it really does you will see the difference between a McLaren SLR without ABS and a honda civic without ABS , that way you'll get the point of big brakes and tiny little brakes , so that's why theres a big misunderstanding because people are just so used to the honda civic brakes.

your other quote is wrong really , you obviously haven't bothered reading it to even understand it , "The McLaren F1 doesn't. And it takes merely two seconds to brake down from 100 km/h." I said the Mclaren SLR , it can do 200-0 in 4 seconds , so if you make if you do 0-100-0 , it will do all that quicker than a honda civic going 100-0.


ok but no offense you don't have to tell me the mechanic's information because im not a mechanic.

Oh really so you can change the bias of your honda civic's brakes well even if it was set to maximum , probably wouldn't make much difference on the locking up part.

and really your telling me the disc size and component doesn't matter on stopping power?, The ferrari enzo's secondary caliper on rear wheels are actually bigger than a subaru sti's calipers and but im afraid a subaru sti is way beyond what a honda civic or mazda or any of that you tested can achieve... but your saying disc size and component doesn't matter in stopping power and I know the fact that steel has nothing close to the heat resistance of carbon.

Im just telling you , you can't compare a freaking honda civic's brakes or mazda's brakes to cars like McLaren SLR's.


and im talking about modern cars not 1990s mclaren f1 , Im talking about modern cars and almost all now have ABS.

my point is there is a huge misconception of people saying , oh no GT5's lockup is just too much or in most cases just impossible on the fast roadcars or racecars , that simply means you can't handle it and you know it for yourself as a fact not an opinion and I know you , you've replied on my ABS restriction / instrument thread , and its quite obvious for you to quote in denial

that's because your so used to honda civics or mazda's , they don't really lock up.

road cars will never grip like race cars , and even with slicks race cars lock up a lot.

Actually we can discuss this for months and you can say that most fast road cars will have ABS but at the end of the day top levels in motorsports will still not allow ABS.

 

[Supermelon]

Whats a secondary caliper?

 

[niky]

first of all your "quoted SLR" is false , the SLR mclaren has done 200-0 in 70 meters , so it does brake a lot faster for 100-0

you were most probably saying 100 mph - 0 in 36 meters :/ I'm sorry but the same cars you tested , mazda's and honda civic's won't brake as quick as a mclaren's. not even slightly.

Oh, sorry... did I forget to quote sources? Did you? Do you need one? How about this?

Obviously, the Opel Zafira OPC van has fifteen inch carbon ceramic brakes with eight caliper pistons, that's why it takes only 0.7 meters longer to stop from 100 km/h than an SLR McLaren tested by the same publication... whoops... no, it doesn't.

I don't see any reason why you should quote when your ending up saying the same thing like "It doesn't matter how good your brakes are. If you don't have grip, you can't stop." that's why when you turn off ABS you'll see what it really does you will see the difference between a McLaren SLR without ABS and a honda civic without ABS , that way you'll get the point of big brakes and tiny little brakes , so that's why theres a big misunderstanding because people are just so used to the honda civic brakes.

Again: Have you ever really braked a car? As in truly, honestly slammed on the brakes? How many hours do you have on track? I just posted my experience on track and you skimmed that over without noticing, at all...

I brake tested fifty-two different cars last year on the racetrack. I am going to do this with nearly thirty cars this year. I'd like to know what "misunderstanding" I have about brakes.

Tiny brakes with small calipers don't often have enough clamping force to lock up when paired with very sticky tires. But most modern compacts have more than enough disc and caliper to lock the brakes on the racetrack. Seriously, what year Civic are you driving that has five inch brakes? I'd like photographic proof.

your other quote is wrong really , you obviously haven't bothered reading it to even understand it , "The McLaren F1 doesn't. And it takes merely two seconds to brake down from 100 km/h." I said the Mclaren SLR , it can do 200-0 in 4 seconds , so if you make if you do 0-100-0 , it will do all that quicker than a honda civic going 100-0.

ok but no offense you don't have to tell me the mechanic's information because im not a mechanic.

Obviously.

Oh really so you can change the bias of your honda civic's brakes well even if it was set to maximum , probably wouldn't make much difference on the locking up part.

Do you know why cars have proportioning valves? Because the optimal brake bias for an unladen vehicle and a laden vehicle are different. Altering the bias will change which brakes lock up first.

Weight balance is also the big answer as to why supercars and Porsches constantly outbrake everything else. Because a static rearward weight bias turns to close to 50:50 under braking, so they utilize all four contact patches under braking more effectively than your typically front-heavy front-engined car... the McLaren SLR hangs in this company by virtue of lots of grip and a honking big barn door that pops up over the boot every time you slam on the brakes...

and really your telling me the disc size and component doesn't matter on stopping power?, The ferrari enzo's secondary caliper on rear wheels are actually bigger than a subaru sti's calipers and but im afraid a subaru sti is way beyond what a honda civic or mazda or any of that you tested can achieve...

Wait... didn't I just say I brake tested a Subaru STI? Oh, yes, I did.

That's about the same as a Subaru WRX STI (35.6 meters, warm weather, dry, as per AutoBild), which doesn't have 15 inch carbon-ceramic brakes. In [color="red]our testing[/color] on a wet track, we got 36.5 meters... that's in the wet.[/quote]

[quote="Enzo309, post: 5974627"] but your saying disc size and component doesn't matter in stopping power and I know the fact that steel has nothing close to the heat resistance of carbon.

Finally. You're getting warmer. So, know why supercars use carbon-ceramic brakes? Heat. Given the right steel brakes, a supercar can stop in an ungodly short distance (example: the Mclaren F1). The reason newer vehicles use carbon-ceramic brakes is heat. Shedding heat. The reason performance cars of all stripe use big brakes is heat. Shedding heat. Every time you hit the brakes, you use friction to slow the car. Friction creates heat. Heat affects brake performance. Less heat, more consistent braking.

Bigger brakes? Bigger heat sinks to absorb the heat. More brake pistons? flatter pad, more consistent pressure, more pad surface area to absorb heat. Carbon Ceramic discs? Heat protection.

Obviously, tiny brakes (like this guy has) are woefully underpowered... but you don't need huge discs for maximum braking performance... what you need are good pads, a good master cylinder, proper brake bias and decent sized discs. With performance pads, even a stock system can lock the brakes with racing tires at low speeds. This of course depends on the stock system... if you've got a first-generation Miata, which has trouble simply stopping with stock tires, then all bets are off.

At higher speeds, factors such as heat come into play.

This is where your woeful standard road-car system starts to fail. A road car will be able to lock the tires the first time around... but sometimes not the second... or the third... and by the fourth or fifth your brake fluid will be too busy boiling to actually produce any hydraulic pressure. This is where you want to start upgrading the stock stuff.

And this is where Turismo diverges from real-life. In Turismo, braking heats up the tires, but it doesn't heat up the brakes. And without any heating occuring... at all... and with a brake bias controller and an obviously infinitely strong master cylinder (when set at 10) coming as standard in GT5, then locking up consistently from lap to lap becomes even easier. That's why GT5 has no "Racing Brakes" option. Because without heat build up, there's obviously no reason to spec up to 18 inch cross-drilled carbon-ceramic brakes with dual eight piston calipers.

Im just telling you , you can't compare a freaking honda civic's brakes or mazda's brakes to cars like McLaren SLR's.


and im talking about modern cars not 1990s mclaren f1 , Im talking about modern cars and almost all now have ABS.

my point is there is a huge misconception of people saying , oh no GT5's lockup is just too much or in most cases just impossible on the fast roadcars or racecars , that simply means you can't handle it and you know it for yourself as a fact not an opinion and I know you , you've replied on my ABS restriction / instrument thread , and its quite obvious for you to quote in denial

that's because your so used to honda civics or mazda's , they don't really lock up.

road cars will never grip like race cars , and even with slicks race cars lock up a lot.

So in effect you're saying that road cars don't have a lot of grip, hence they can't lock up their brakes? Wow. That's deep.

Next thing you know, you'll be telling me a Civic has so little grip it can't do a burn-out.

In the meantime, I've dug up my times from the 2010 tests. 100-0 km/h: Corolla... 38.8m. STI... 36.5m. That's a Corolla with no-name 195mm wide economy tires and discs the size of CDs... on a track that's gritty, rough, damp and has much less grip than the one AutoBild uses, I've nearly matched half of AutoBild's top 100 cars (which all cost a whole lot more than the Corolla) in 100-0 performance.

 

[OK8]

In game ABS is nothing like ABS in real life... ABS=0 is like real life.

Why? because if the ABS come on while driving in real your doing something wrong. If you brake while turning or are on a track and the ABS comes on you will understeer and possibly crash...

ABS in the game is NOT ABS, its simply a setting to allow for NO tire slip during braking, ABS will always make tires slip just for small constant durations.

ABS=0 is far more realistic and i recommend it.

ABS in the game does way more than just prevent the brakes from locking. When you're braking it doesn't allow any form of tire slip.

I had a race against a friend, stock Yellowbirds (well.. his was red so Yellowbird vs Redbird) sports hard on a wet nurb 24h. He was using ABS and I wasn't. It's no surprise he gained on me under braking (but not by much I must say) but when he was on the brakes he could turn the car like it was on rails.

I don't mean he could turn better because his wheels weren't locked (neither were mine), but it was as if the track was dry when he was braking. I watched the replay and noticed he gained a lot of grip.

Anyone trying to get better at this game and pushing it as far as he can should try abs 0. It won't take long to get the hang of it.

 

[mallyauto86]

Right i'l put my 2 cents to this,

My car is actually in the game, Honda EK9 ...

I've driven my personal car on track a few times and have tried it in game with a g27 that i borrowed.

Well with the ABS set to 1 it's pretty much like real life ABS helps, and reacts the way it would in real life. soon as the wheels want to lock it kicks in.

Though on my EK9 i have removed the ABS on it because on track it gets really anoying and when the brakes get hot it seems to cut in too soon on some ocassions.

 

[shirakawaa]

Well with the ABS set to 1 it's pretty much like real life ABS helps, and reacts the way it would in real life. soon as the wheels want to lock it kicks in.

The very fact that the ABS in GT5 doesn't work in impulses by locking and unlocking tires very quickly, means that it can't react the way it does in real life.

 

[Enzo309]

Oh, sorry... did I forget to quote sources? Did you? Do you need one? How about this?

Obviously, the Opel Zafira OPC van has fifteen inch carbon ceramic brakes with eight caliper pistons, that's why it takes only 0.7 meters longer to stop from 100 km/h than an SLR McLaren tested by the same publication... whoops... no, it doesn't.



Again: Have you ever really braked a car? As in truly, honestly slammed on the brakes? How many hours do you have on track? I just posted my experience on track and you skimmed that over without noticing, at all...

I brake tested fifty-two different cars last year on the racetrack. I am going to do this with nearly thirty cars this year. I'd like to know what "misunderstanding" I have about brakes.

Tiny brakes with small calipers don't often have enough clamping force to lock up when paired with very sticky tires. But most modern compacts have more than enough disc and caliper to lock the brakes on the racetrack. Seriously, what year Civic are you driving that has five inch brakes? I'd like photographic proof.



Obviously.



Do you know why cars have proportioning valves? Because the optimal brake bias for an unladen vehicle and a laden vehicle are different. Altering the bias will change which brakes lock up first.

Weight balance is also the big answer as to why supercars and Porsches constantly outbrake everything else. Because a static rearward weight bias turns to close to 50:50 under braking, so they utilize all four contact patches under braking more effectively than your typically front-heavy front-engined car... the McLaren SLR hangs in this company by virtue of lots of grip and a honking big barn door that pops up over the boot every time you slam on the brakes...



Wait... didn't I just say I brake tested a Subaru STI? Oh, yes, I did.





Finally. You're getting warmer. So, know why supercars use carbon-ceramic brakes? Heat. Given the right steel brakes, a supercar can stop in an ungodly short distance (example: the Mclaren F1). The reason newer vehicles use carbon-ceramic brakes is heat. Shedding heat. The reason performance cars of all stripe use big brakes is heat. Shedding heat. Every time you hit the brakes, you use friction to slow the car. Friction creates heat. Heat affects brake performance. Less heat, more consistent braking.

Bigger brakes? Bigger heat sinks to absorb the heat. More brake pistons? flatter pad, more consistent pressure, more pad surface area to absorb heat. Carbon Ceramic discs? Heat protection.

Obviously, tiny brakes (like this guy has) are woefully underpowered... but you don't need huge discs for maximum braking performance... what you need are good pads, a good master cylinder, proper brake bias and decent sized discs. With performance pads, even a stock system can lock the brakes with racing tires at low speeds. This of course depends on the stock system... if you've got a first-generation Miata, which has trouble simply stopping with stock tires, then all bets are off.

At higher speeds, factors such as heat come into play.

This is where your woeful standard road-car system starts to fail. A road car will be able to lock the tires the first time around... but sometimes not the second... or the third... and by the fourth or fifth your brake fluid will be too busy boiling to actually produce any hydraulic pressure. This is where you want to start upgrading the stock stuff.

And this is where Turismo diverges from real-life. In Turismo, braking heats up the tires, but it doesn't heat up the brakes. And without any heating occuring... at all... and with a brake bias controller and an obviously infinitely strong master cylinder (when set at 10) coming as standard in GT5, then locking up consistently from lap to lap becomes even easier. That's why GT5 has no "Racing Brakes" option. Because without heat build up, there's obviously no reason to spec up to 18 inch cross-drilled carbon-ceramic brakes with dual eight piston calipers.



So in effect you're saying that road cars don't have a lot of grip, hence they can't lock up their brakes? Wow. That's deep.

Next thing you know, you'll be telling me a Civic has so little grip it can't do a burn-out.

In the meantime, I've dug up my times from the 2010 tests. 100-0 km/h: Corolla... 38.8m. STI... 36.5m. That's a Corolla with no-name 195mm wide economy tires and discs the size of CDs... on a track that's gritty, rough, damp and has much less grip than the one AutoBild uses, I've nearly matched half of AutoBild's top 100 cars (which all cost a whole lot more than the Corolla) in 100-0 performance.

with ABS they won't but surely with a honda civic , wouldn't matter what kind of tyre you have on a honda civic , its just not powerful enough to go to 200 and its brakes are too tiny but for the Mclaren SLR w/out ABS wether you have any kind of tyre like slicks it will lock very quickly and easily because that car has stopping power like racing cars do. thats deeper

yes carbon brakes are heat resistant , but you don't know anything about the stopping power difference and disc size does matter more disc surface and bigger calipers simply means more friction.

ok and what kind of source is that , a spreadsheet source ?? lol ^^ stop making a big deal out of a spreadsheet , top gear tested the SLR and it did 200-0 in 70 meters 200-0 in 4 seconds just like a pagani zonda R. Your honda civic will never stop as quickly , not in the next 10 years im afraid.

 

[YayoiGT2]

In endurance races like Le Mans , they are allowed to have all aids in the world so it's really all about the car in terms of endurance racing.

No.

 

[gtnoobie]

Niky certainly shown more proof than just wild speculation.
A less scientific method is when during advance driving time trial within a carpark, I was in the company of Mazdaspeed 6, alfa Romeo 156 gta, integra type r(various version with some uprated brakes), Subaru sti and wrx, Mitsubishi evo iv, ix, x, Volvo convertible, Mercedes slk, Suzuki swift, accord euro r, odyssey absolute, Nissan latio, Toyota corolla and my own Mazda 3. Guess who came out tops in a tight carpark time trial with cone slalom, heavy braking thru tight 90 degree turns and hairpins.
If brake caliper matters (some are upgraded 19 inches), slk, mps, sti, evo, type r, mps, should win by a lot. The fastest is the Mazdaspeed 18 inch wheels, second.... Suzuki swift sports on 17 inch then alfa gta on 18 inch ceramic (my friend), then my Mazda 3 on stock 17 inch. The upgraded evo, type r and sti on 19 inches are behind. In longer circuit, their acceleration would have destroyed my 1.6 Mazda time by a mile. Some turn on ESP or tc while others off it and see smoke. This is all done in a day after circuit familiarization and doing handbrake turns, skidding and segment by segment training for everyone. This is not a controlled test with same driver but I guess braking time needed is really not very different.

 

[Enzo309]

No.

TC active steering abs esp just about all possible aids , ya.

 

[gtnoobie]

Oh forget to mention even another of my friend's toyota corolla altis on 15 inch wheels is not that far behind (3 seconds behind the mps). He's not even pushing hard. The carpark circuit takes about 1min 2 second per round (for the first to the fifth) and we are given 2 tries from standing start with longest straight of about 30 metres. The 4 trainers were amateur racers taking part in track competitions but they did not join our time trial themselves.
I also took part in mercedes c class challenge in a c200 with training in police academy grounds much like a downscaled tgtt by 2 professional racers. Again slalom, deep turns, hairpin and brake test. It has plenty of abs engaging and ESP is on (came 2nd out of 30 that day but about 20 out of 400 in 3 months of challenge). Abs implementation in Mercedes is way less jerky than my Mazda and closer to gt5 abs feel. So yes when brakes are cool, braking distance should not be too different using street tires whether ur brake piston and rotor is huge or humble. Every modern car can lock their tires easily and engage abs.
One more thing, I drove 5 years in a 73 1.3l corolla without abs. During emergency brakes, my car tail end skid forward when my steering is not completely straight. Abs seems to prevent that except with extreme steering (like in intentional handbrake turn)
I have been test driving loads of cars in recent years to decide on next upgrade. One test is the emergency brake and feel the abs. Just got a mercedes e200 (yesterday) and the abs is quite sublime.

 

[niky]

At such low speeds, brakes don't build up enough heat for it to matter. Even then, I've driven on the racetrack against STIs and M3s, and we can dive just about as deep into the corners on the same tires. The only difference is that my brakes wilt about half-a-lap earlier.

It's only half-a-lap because despite their big, slotted brakes, they're heavier cars with street pads and fluid... so they boil the brakes just the same. Last timed competition I ran, both I and the STI guy (both on UHP rubber) ran a perfect first lap and lost braking halfway through the second.

I've since upgraded, and am itching to have another go. Sadly our next track schedule is in November. It's been pushed back several times already because this is peak track season here and we only have two really suitable tracks in the area.

-----

When I test brakes (I usually don't unless on track... it gets dangerous on public roads), I start at low speeds and work my way up, feeling for any weird handling behavior under braking and in corners. Some modern cars are actually appallingly trail-brake oversteer happy despite having ABS.

with ABS they won't but surely with a honda civic , wouldn't matter what kind of tyre you have on a honda civic , its just not powerful enough to go to 200 and its brakes are too tiny but for the Mclaren SLR w/out ABS wether you have any kind of tyre like slicks it will lock very quickly and easily because that car has stopping power like racing cars do. thats deeper

yes carbon brakes are heat resistant , but you don't know anything about the stopping power difference and disc size does matter more disc surface and bigger calipers simply means more friction.

ok and what kind of source is that , a spreadsheet source ?? lol ^^ stop making a big deal out of a spreadsheet , top gear tested the SLR and it did 200-0 in 70 meters 200-0 in 4 seconds just like a pagani zonda R. Your honda civic will never stop as quickly , not in the next 10 years im afraid.

Go up to any car enthusiast and tell them Autobild is not a reliable source whereas Top Gear (oh-noes-our-Tesla-ran-out-of-battery...(wait several weeks)...just-kidding!) is. Let's see the reaction you get.

What do a Honda Civic's brakes have to do with actually hitting 200 km/h? do know that much of the braking efficiency the McMerc has is down to the wing, right? Right?

Errh... you do know that Top Gear's test is 0 - 200 km/h - 0, right? Just checking.

but you don't know anything about the stopping power difference

Irony, thy name is Lorenzo followed by a number. You still haven't answered the question. How much actual braking have you done and in what car? That's a direct question that you've evaded for several posts already. It would be nice if your knowledge and proof consisted of more than a Top Gear video about the McLaren SLR.

Have you... gasp... even driven a Honda Civic?

 

[YayoiGT2]

TC active steering abs esp just about all possible aids , ya.

No. TC perhaps, especially in the case of the LMP cars, but GT1/GTE Pro/Am is full-blown no assists.

You must be mistaking them for WRC.

 

[niky]

TC active steering abs esp just about all possible aids , ya.

http://www.lemans.org/en/news/2011-LE-MANS-24-HOURS-REGULATIONS_628.html

(driver aids banned).

Fail to see how those regulations allow just about all possible aids when any form of corner control aid is banned. They allow traction control, because it's difficult to ban, but any form of braking assist, ABS, ESP or regnerative braking algorithms that serve the same function, is banned from LeMans and, by extension, the ALMS.

 

[Enzo309]

I know there's tc and active steering as a fact in lmp.

At such low speeds, brakes don't build up enough heat for it to matter. Even then, I've driven on the racetrack against STIs and M3s, and we can dive just about as deep into the corners on the same tires. The only difference is that my brakes wilt about half-a-lap earlier.

It's only half-a-lap because despite their big, slotted brakes, they're heavier cars with street pads and fluid... so they boil the brakes just the same. Last timed competition I ran, both I and the STI guy (both on UHP rubber) ran a perfect first lap and lost braking halfway through the second.

I've since upgraded, and am itching to have another go. Sadly our next track schedule is in November. It's been pushed back several times already because this is peak track season here and we only have two really suitable tracks in the area.

-----

When I test brakes (I usually don't unless on track... it gets dangerous on public roads), I start at low speeds and work my way up, feeling for any weird handling behavior under braking and in corners. Some modern cars are actually appallingly trail-brake oversteer happy despite having ABS.



Go up to any car enthusiast and tell them Autobild is not a reliable source whereas Top Gear (oh-noes-our-Tesla-ran-out-of-battery...(wait several weeks)...just-kidding!) is. Let's see the reaction you get.

What do a Honda Civic's brakes have to do with actually hitting 200 km/h? do know that much of the braking efficiency the McMerc has is down to the wing, right? Right?

Errh... you do know that Top Gear's test is 0 - 200 km/h - 0, right? Just checking.



Irony, thy name is Lorenzo followed by a number. You still haven't answered the question. How much actual braking have you done and in what car? That's a direct question that you've evaded for several posts already. It would be nice if your knowledge and proof consisted of more than a Top Gear video about the McLaren SLR.

Have you... gasp... even driven a Honda Civic?

down to the air brake? it only produces about half of a single brake's stopping power , its mostly down to the pure ceramic brakes which glows orange when you use them hard because that means it absorbs a lot of energy just like a formula one car's pure carbon brakes , it glows yellow hot.


in a honda civic you pull about .6g of stopping power , in a Bugatti Veyron you get .6g of stopping power from the air brakes alone , factor in the carbon ceramic brakes , the stopping power is just phenomenal but never mind an F1 car does 5.8g of deceleration.



so an F1 car with civic brakes is going to stop from 300-0 in 2.3 seconds? you obviously know a lot on disc and caliper sizes not affecting stopping power

 

[gtnoobie]

How can u compare braking distance of f1, veyron thinking that the difference is due to bigger brakes??? They have way better compound tires (>30k a piece) and totally different tire grip level. Even puny disc brake to rotor brake grip at cool temperature exceeds grip of street tire to road almost all the time. Air brake only works at high speed and 0.6g is not a constant. Varies inversely with cube of speed so have almost no effect at low speed. Downforce at speed from f1 adds to the grip of tires which ultimately where braking/cornering comes from. u really need to do some real life track work and comparison test urself.

 

[Crispy]

I know there's tc and active steering as a fact in lmp.

TCS, yes there are. Mostly due to the fact that if you slightly touch the pedal the rear wheels will spin like crazy. Even with TCS on they still spin about as much as an average supercar without traction control. As for anything else, well the website up above (Keep in mind it is the official website for LeMans) states that no AIDs are used, so, end of discussion?


[QOUTE]its mostly down to the pure ceramic brakes which glows orange when you use them hard because that means it absorbs a lot of energy just like a formula one car's pure carbon brakes , it glows yellow hot.[/QUOTE]

Last I checked all brakes did that after stopping from high speeds. It doesn't matter if they're carbon ceramics, or plain regular disc-brakes, it's how much heat created from the friction caused by the brakes themselves. Rub your hand across your arm, it produces the same effect.

in a honda civic you pull about .6g of stopping power , in a Bugatti Veyron you get .6g of stopping power from the air brakes alone , factor in the carbon ceramic brakes , the stopping power is just phenomenal but never mind an F1 car does 5.8g of deceleration.

I think speed would have a factor in this. Anyway, since when was stopping power a constant? I would also think tires would have a factor too, as well as weight, and many other things not up to the brakes. I'm fairly certain if you place Bugatti brakes on a Honda Civic, there would be very very very little difference in stopping power. The difference would almost certainly be noticed as brake fade, as differences in rotors are mainly used to combat brake fade. Better cooling means the brakes won't heat up as easily, and if they don't heat up as easily they won't have a fade in stopping power.

so an F1 car with civic brakes is going to stop from 300-0 in 2.3 seconds? you obviously know a lot on disc and caliper sizes not affecting stopping power

In the real world, no, it wouldn't. THe brakes would heat up and probably burst before you would stop. Take heat out of the equation, and I wouldn't see why not.

 

[niky]

I know there's tc and active steering as a fact in lmp.

Power steering isn't active steering. It's power steering.

down to the air brake? it only produces about half of a single brake's stopping power , its mostly down to the pure ceramic brakes which glows orange when you use them hard because that means it absorbs a lot of energy just like a formula one car's pure carbon brakes , it glows yellow hot.

Glowing brakes indicate great stopping power? So my Sentra's 9-inch front discs glowed after a good thrash because they were great brakes? Try again.

in a honda civic you pull about .6g of stopping power , in a Bugatti Veyron you get .6g of stopping power from the air brakes alone , factor in the carbon ceramic brakes , the stopping power is just phenomenal but never mind an F1 car does 5.8g of deceleration.

Again... where's your source of information? I love watching you pull statistics out of thin air. A modern street going Civic or Corolla on normal tires produces over 0.85g of deceleration... even with rear drums. Remove ABS and give the Civic enough grip, and it'll be exceeding 1g... (given, of course... that the system has not heated up to the point where braking force decreases... see wall-of-text on previous page)

By the bye... if you get 0.6 g of deceleration from the air brakes alone, how is that not significant?

so an F1 car with civic brakes is going to stop from 300-0 in 2.3 seconds? you obviously know a lot on disc and caliper sizes not affecting stopping power

And you obviously know a lot about disc and caliper sizes, especially those infamous 5-inch Civic discs which I have yet to see you provide photographic or factual proof of.

With that much grip, it's likely the Civic's master cylinder can't provide enough clamping force, and even if it could, the brake lines from a Civic might not handle it (having popped a brake line at 160 km/h, I can tell you, it's not pretty). A Formula 1 car has a beefier hydraulic system, and twin, separate channels. It also has pretty big cooling ducts. And it'd be unfair to ask the Civic's street pads to do the duty... you'd need a race-spec pad with the same heat range as the F1 cars. Give it all of that, with the stock Civic caliper... probably wouldn't give you quite the stopping you want... but that's not down to the size of the brakes.

See, an F1 car is a bad example of the superiority of big disc and caliper size... since by regulations, that disc is about the same size as the one on a Civic Type R... less than 11" in diameter, with a small pad area.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5284.html

Oh, and note... that the article goes on to explain the carbon ceramic discs are there to save weight and because they operate at higher temperatures... not because they stop quicker.

Do note: The size of F1 brakes and the number of calipers and brake pads are restricted.

Would they work better with bigger and more? Yes. Any increase in size will decrease heat at the point where the pad hits the disc and increase longevity of the braking systems. I'm sure Red Bull would have liked that back in 09 and 10' when they had lots of heat issues with their brakes.

Would they stop shorter? No. Consider that with puny 11" discs, F1 cars already lock up their tires a lot, despite in-cabin driver controls which allow them to adjust brake bias, then it's obvious they've already got all the brake they need (at least over one lap).

 

[savage388]

Some people forget that race cars and even the majority of street cars can lock up all four tires on demand. Tires are a much bigger factor in stopping distances, while as previously mentioned, larger more exotic brakes are only used to resist fade to improve overall feel and performance over longer periods of extended use.

 

[Bigbazz]

Depends on the tyres you're using in the game, but safe to say the game is easier on you than real life.


Edit : Above arguement : This is the same Enzo that argued that the Ferrari Enzo had more downforce and would produce better laptimes than a real racing car and that the in game representation (that people had clearly proved destroying real world performance) was too slow. His reasoning for the Enzo being apparently underperforming was that PD did not want to properly represent the car because it would outperform many racing cars and this would look bad? Or something along those lines. This arguement of his went on for weeks with him vs the forum.

You will argue with him for weeks, doesn't matter how wrong he is and how right you are. Word of warning.