Can't Seem to Fully Disable ABS

[XSquareStickIt]

Hello all. Like many others, I seem to have an issue with the braking performance of many production cars in the game. So I tried to turn off ABS to see if that was what's causing the poor stopping performance, and understeer on turn in.

Surprisingly, I found that the game was still somehow limiting my braking force, as can be seen from the HUD while racing:



I've uploaded a video of me using this exact car, along with its settings, doing a few hot laps around Suzuka in GT League. Though the tyres were screeching slightly, they weren't anywhere near locking up. And, as can still be seen from the HUD, my braking does still seem to be limited at the last eighth or so of the brake pedal's travel, though admittedly it doesn't meddle with my braking when feathering my brakes to trim my line mid corner, as the default ABS always seems to do.



Yes, I tried this in time trail and custom race, with grip reduction set to real. Still the same thing happens. Any idea what the heck is going on here?

Here's where I'm going to have to formulate the rest of my argument without solid proof: I don't remember the game doing this during earlier versions. It's annoying how the driving physics seem to change with every freaking update of the game, and I can't ever leave a tune alone because they always end up feeling whack with each update. Particularly with 1.28 my N cars all seem to understeer horrendously on turn in, even with trail braking. And it's frustrating.

Is anyone else having the same issue? Any insight is much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Alpha Cipher]

It seems like the game doesn't want the rear tires to lock up under any circumstances. Do you have your BB set to the rear (+)? People say that ABS Off works supposedly more realistic that way because it adjusts the BB to a more realistic level, but to me it looks like it's just because ABS still activates to keep the rears from locking

 

[XSquareStickIt]

Whoops, I'm sorry. I neglected to mention that my brake bias is set to 3 (rear bias). The full settings is shown in the video.

Odd that the rears would want to lock before the front, though, unless the ABS is calibrated with a large safety margin for the rear. It WOULD explain the poor stopping performance if the ABS was really un-offable and set with such a large margin on the rears, though.

 

[DJShadesUK]

I seem to have an issue with the braking performance of many production cars in the game

Its interesting that you say you have problems with production cars; many production cars don't truly switch things completely off even when you've pushed a physical (or on-screen button) to switch them off. Perhaps PD are mimicking that real-world behaviour? The question is, does it happen on non-production or race prepared cars? If not you have your answer as to what is going on.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Its interesting that you say you have problems with production cars; many production cars don't truly switch things completely off even when you've pushed a physical (or on-screen button) to switch them off. Perhaps PD are mimicking that real-world behaviour? The question is, does it happen on non-production or race prepared cars? If not you have your answer as to what is going on.

Yes, it does happen in race cars. Just set the BB to +5 on any car and you're sure to see this

If you don't, try to turn while braking

 

[DJShadesUK]

Yes, it does happen in race cars. Just set the BB to +5 on any car and you're sure to see this

Just tried it in the Gr.3 WRX (doing quali laps for SM:RB), and yep, you're right.

 

[XSquareStickIt]

@Alpha Cipher You are shockingly correct, it seems, in saying that the game doesn't want you to lock up your rear tyres.

I did a bit of experimenting to test both your theory and @DJShadesUK's. I brought a first gen Viper to the test - a car that infamously didn't come equipped with ABS, and slammed the brakes from ~250km/h on its stock Sports Hard rubber. The rest of the car is also entirely stock.



As you can tell from the HUD, my braking force was no longer limited. So I tried the same thing with brake bias set to 3, which felt to me like the "comfort zone" of the car, and...



Bam, phantom ABS kicks in. Although, it has to be said, the car stops dramatically better with BB3. The difference was night and day.

Doing this in a Viper has also proven that this "phantom ABS" is not the game trying to replicate real life car systems and their un-offable ABS. Rather, it seems to be yet another measure put in place by PD to make driving in this game easier. I personally find this distasteful, because the in-game default of BB0 never feels optimal. Hard to believe any car would come with an even 50:50 braking force split between front and rear.

All this, after Kaz mentioned how driving a car in real life is easy and thus shouldn't be difficult in a game. Yet they have to pull stunts like these. Urgh.

For 🤬 and giggles, I decided to see how far the phantom ABS would go to limit your braking. I thus equipped an R35 GT-R Safety Car with Racing Super Softs up front and Comfort Hards in the rear. I then took it to Monza and floored the brakes immediately from auto drive (because I can't hold the car in a straight line HAHAHAHA!). Below are the results:



The game didn't limit the braking force nearly as much as I had expected... All four tyres locked up almost immediately, so it's kinda weird that this phantom ABS doesn't prevent wheel lock entirely; it just... limits your rear braking force up to a set maximum amount.



Whee!

For comparison, here's the same, stock R35 on its original rubber, Sport Hards, with BB0 and 3.

Brake Balance 0:


Brake Balance 3:


Again, I floored the brakes from auto drive until the car hit a standstill. As you can tell from the copious amounts of smoke from the BB0 shot, the front wheels did lock, resulting in a dramatically increased braking distance compared to BB3, which showed very minimal tyre squealing.

tl;dr the ABS in this game is dumb.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

@Alpha Cipher You are shockingly correct, it seems, in saying that the game doesn't want you to lock up your rear tyres.

I did a bit of experimenting to test both your theory and @DJShadesUK's. I brought a first gen Viper to the test - a car that infamously didn't come equipped with ABS, and slammed the brakes from ~250km/h on its stock Sports Hard rubber. The rest of the car is also entirely stock.



As you can tell from the HUD, my braking force was no longer limited. So I tried the same thing with brake bias set to 3, which felt to me like the "comfort zone" of the car, and...



Bam, phantom ABS kicks in. Although, it has to be said, the car stops dramatically better with BB3. The difference was night and day.

Doing this in a Viper has also proven that this "phantom ABS" is not the game trying to replicate real life car systems and their un-offable ABS. Rather, it seems to be yet another measure put in place by PD to make driving in this game easier. I personally find this distasteful, because the in-game default of BB0 never feels optimal. Hard to believe any car would come with an even 50:50 braking force split between front and rear.

All this, after Kaz mentioned how driving a car in real life is easy and thus shouldn't be difficult in a game. Yet they have to pull stunts like these. Urgh.

For 🤬 and giggles, I decided to see how far the phantom ABS would go to limit your braking. I thus equipped an R35 GT-R Safety Car with Racing Super Softs up front and Comfort Hards in the rear. I then took it to Monza and floored the brakes immediately from auto drive (because I can't hold the car in a straight line HAHAHAHA!). Below are the results:



The game didn't limit the braking force nearly as much as I had expected... All four tyres locked up almost immediately, so it's kinda weird that this phantom ABS doesn't prevent wheel lock entirely; it just... limits your rear braking force up to a set maximum amount.



Whee!

For comparison, here's the same, stock R35 on its original rubber, Sport Hards, with BB0 and 3.

Brake Balance 0:


Brake Balance 3:


Again, I floored the brakes from auto drive until the car hit a standstill. As you can tell from the copious amounts of smoke from the BB0 shot, the front wheels did lock, resulting in a dramatically increased braking distance compared to BB3, which showed very minimal tyre squealing.

tl;dr the ABS in this game is dumb.

Thanks for taking the time to test it! I use ABS Off every now and then whenever lobbies require me to since I can handle it, but it's nowhere near as fun as I want it to be because of this

 

[XSquareStickIt]

@Alpha Cipher no problem at all. In fact, it almost sounded like you knew what the heck was going on before I even asked a question, so there wasn't much left for me to do but slam the brakes and screenshot

As someone who has raced without ABS frequently, would you say this un-offable ABS on the rear tyres a new addition to an update? Or has it been there since launch and I was somehow dumb enough to miss it until now?

 

[Alpha Cipher]

@Alpha Cipher no problem at all. In fact, it almost sounded like you knew what the heck was going on before I even asked a question, so there wasn't much left for me to do but slam the brakes and screenshot

As someone who has raced without ABS frequently, would you say this un-offable ABS on the rear tyres a new addition to an update? Or has it been there since launch and I was somehow dumb enough to miss it until now?

I'm not sure if it has been like this since launch, but I noticed this behavior around a month or two before the new tire model. So it's been around for some time

 

[GordonS]

@Alpha Cipher no problem at all. In fact, it almost sounded like you knew what the heck was going on before I even asked a question, so there wasn't much left for me to do but slam the brakes and screenshot

As someone who has raced without ABS frequently, would you say this un-offable ABS on the rear tyres a new addition to an update? Or has it been there since launch and I was somehow dumb enough to miss it until now?

Since the launch. This video of mine is from January:


Whereas in GT Sport Closed beta in May 2017:


I wonder what caused the desicion to ditch tyre locking in abs 0.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I've known about this since launch. Setting the BB all the way to the rear and ABS Off will still limit your braking force artificially. That's part of my reasoning why everyone should just use ABS On/Weak in this game, because Off is so fundamentally broken.

Dunno why PD decides to go backwards. ABS Off in GT6 was perfect and oh so close to PC sims. You'd think with better tyre and suspension physics they will finally get things right in GTS. Just PD being PD I guess. One step forward, one step back

 

[the_boy]

I could be wrong, but I think TCS also comes on when you go off track.

 

[XSquareStickIt]

I wonder what caused the desicion to ditch tyre locking in abs 0.

Dunno why PD decides to go backwards. ABS Off in GT6 was perfect and oh so close to PC sims. You'd think with better tyre and suspension physics they will finally get things right in GTS. Just PD being PD I guess. One step forward, one step back

PD seems to have implemented several of these annoying "aids" to help make driving "easier", such as the 0.6 toe in every production car comes with by default, along with 0.5 and 1.5 degree camber front and rear. I find it stupid. In GT6 it made the license test with the Veyron impossible to gold. As @the_boy mentioned, TCS automatically comes on when you leave the track and end up in dirt/ grass, as well as if you engage reverse. I have a sneaking suspicion PD isn't 100% happy with the accuracy of their physics engine, and hence feel the need to add these little "aids" to help a driver, but of course that's just my speculation.

 

[ARTAsean]

PD seems to have implemented several of these annoying "aids" to help make driving "easier", such as the 0.6 toe in every production car comes with by default, along with 0.5 and 1.5 degree camber front and rear. I find it stupid. In GT6 it made the license test with the Veyron impossible to gold. As @the_boy mentioned, TCS automatically comes on when you leave the track and end up in dirt/ grass, as well as if you engage reverse. I have a sneaking suspicion PD isn't 100% happy with the accuracy of their physics engine, and hence feel the need to add these little "aids" to help a driver, but of course that's just my speculation.

TCS when you go on gravel/grass is nowhere near as upsetting as the fact that you simply get teleported back on track and lose very little time. Especially in Sport Mode.

 

[fastone371]

TCS when you go on gravel/grass is nowhere near as upsetting as the fact that you simply get teleported back on track and lose very little time. Especially in Sport Mode.

Do you mean like at Brands Hatch when the car in front of you puts 4 wheels on the grass and you only make up 1/2 car length if you are lucky?? Its a joke.

 

[DJShadesUK]

So it turns out that you don't even need to be moving to see the weirdness going on... Just hold the brake and adjust the bias!

Do you mean like at Brands Hatch when the car in front of you puts 4 wheels on the grass and you only make up 1/2 car length if you are lucky?? Its a joke.

There was plenty of that in last weeks Race B (Gr.3 @ Kyoto Driving Park). Plenty of Beetles overcooking the chicane in the dip, run out on the grass on exit and they'd rocket away (almost) like nothing had happened!

 

[GordonS]

So it turns out that you don't even need to be moving to see the weirdness going on... Just hold the brake and adjust the bias!



..

/QUOTE]

But is it not logical that the brake pressure is at its highest in even brake balance?
And that the pressure reduces when in full front brake balance.. And that the pressure reduces even more when in full rear bias balance.

 

[fastone371]

But is it not logical that the brake pressure is at its highest in even brake balance?
And that the pressure reduces when in full front brake balance.. And that the pressure reduces even more when in full rear bias balance.

Not quite sure what you are asking but the way brake porportioning works is that you cannot add pressure, only reduce pressure. So when you move the brake balance bar towards the front you are reducing rear pressure and vice versa, at least with a valve type adjuster. You effectively do the same thing with a balance bar between 2 master cylinders, 1 master will always get full pressure and you limit stroke/movement on the other master cylinder, at least in real lufe

 

[DJShadesUK]

But is it not logical that the brake pressure is at its highest in even brake balance?
And that the pressure reduces when in full front brake balance.. And that the pressure reduces even more when in full rear bias balance.

Actually, Gordon, you raise a very interesting point. I wonder if this is PD's terribly clumsy way of re-using a HUD element to visually represent the difference in braking force when shifting the bias around and its not actually the ABS interfering?

I say this because it appears your video from January may no longer be valid due to PD having fixed(?) the problem of still being able to turn while ABS is off and the bias is all the way to the front.

Here's three experiments I've just conducted in the Gr.3 WRX. To me the behaviour now seems to be what one would expect?

ABS Off - Bias Front 5:

(Front wheels lock, no steering, slight initial jink from changing drag of locked front wheels)

ABS Off - Bias 0:

(Front wheels lock, no steering apart from the initial jink again. Steering returns at very low speed?)

ABS Off - Bias Rear 5:

(Front wheels don't lock, steering still possible.)

 

[GordonS]

Not quite sure what you are asking but the way brake porportioning works is that you cannot add pressure, only reduce pressure. So when you move the brake balance bar towards the front you are reducing rear pressure and vice versa, at least with a valve type adjuster. You effectively do the same thing with a balance bar between 2 master cylinders, 1 master will always get full pressure and you limit stroke/movement on the other master cylinder, at least in real lufe

Yes, understanable. Hehe, the real life car tuning/balancing that I haven't practised anything much of it. I ofcourse meant the video's brake gauge.

 

[fastone371]

Yes, understanable. Hehe, the real life car tuning/balancing that I haven't practised anything much of it. I ofcourse meant the video's brake gauge.

Yeah, it can be quite confusing as to what PDs intentions are with some things.

 

[XSquareStickIt]

Sorry that it took me a while to get back to this thread. Been a little busy and my cat sleeps on my steering wheel setup a lot...

Actually, Gordon, you raise a very interesting point. I wonder if this is PD's terribly clumsy way of re-using a HUD element to visually represent the difference in braking force when shifting the bias around and its not actually the ABS interfering?

You know what, I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. I could hardly believe it at first, but after testing it with my Viper I think I have to concur that this is exactly the case.

I took my 2002 Viper to the Nordschleife (please don't try this at home, kids. It's suicide!), and slammed the brakes going full speed at the famous flippy flying corner, the... uh... "Pflanzgarten I". The idea being that, if the braking is limited by ABS, the ABS should in theory panic and almost disable braking entirely when the car lifts off, and, if the brake HUD is an overall representation of the brake fluid in use for all four corners, it shouldn't interfere at all.

±0


As you can see, ABS was truly off and my wheels were well on their way to locking, causing me to understeer off the track.

+5


For comparison, I also tried the same with BB+5. I made sure to slam the brakes before the car went airbourne, and my braking force was immediately limited the moment I slammed the brakes, and showed no variation in how it limited my braking even as the car lifted off.

In conclusion, it appears I completely misunderstood what PD was trying to convey to me with the brake HUD - instead of there being a "phantom ABS" as I had first thought, the brake HUD instead appears to be a representation of how much brake fluid in the master cylinder is going to the brakes. Of course, why the heck anyone thinks this is useful information is beyond me... and how I'm out of ideas as to why the heck my cars have such poor stopping power.

Thanks for all the awesome responses, you guys. You all rock!

 

[Griffith500]

Good thread!

I think the red portion of the brake bar is effectively a kind of bug. At least, if the braking bar is in units of (applied) braking force. So the full bar is full braking effort from all four brakes, as applied (not at the tyre contact patches), and any proportioning shows up as a reduced applied force, as already explained.

So it kind of makes sense if the red bar represents the output from the master cylinders (which the ABS would modulate), and that is referenced against the "requested" braking force via the player's input (the white bar). The datum / reference (maximum) for that input scale does not change according to the bias selected because it is fixed as the maximum (total) braking power set for the car - which is the "bug".

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I think people are giving PD wayyy too much credit for the complexity in their physics engine here. Remember guys, this is GT we're talking about. They don't even model I/M/O tyre temps properly. Do you think they modeled brake fluid distribution?

If you set brake bias max to the rear and have no ABS, then apply full brakes, the rears should lock up and send your car into a tailspin. That's how every other decent sim modelled it. That's how GT5P/GT5/GT6 modelled it. Setting brake bias max to the front in GTS gives the correct response, but clearly they are not willing to let go of some handholding for the rear brakes this time.

It sucks big time because I do not have place to mount a shifter (and I hate pressing a button for handbrake). I used to set BB all the way to the rear and ABS off to initiate slides in drift mode. Can't do that anymore in GTS...

 

[Griffith500]

Nobody's talking about the brake fluid. It's clear it goes no further than a torque applied at the wheels. But that is determined by the car parameters, and the "bias" setting just determines how much of that figure is achievable per axle.

The main issue with the bias setting has always been that it does not have a fine enough range, because PD refuse to let us set the actual bias figure directly.

 

[DJShadesUK]

Do you think they modeled brake fluid distribution?

You think we think PD "modelled" brake fluid distribution? Do you think we think PD "modelled" fuel flow rate (into the engine) too?

 

[fastone371]

The balance adjuster 0-5 is a pretty fine adjustment. Max rear rear brake (+5) does not mean that you have rear braking only and no front braking, it just means you are asking the rear brakes to do more stopping at +5 vs +1 or 0. Cars always have more front brake balance than rear because of dynamic weight transfer to the front tires. When you move the brake balance adjuster you are simply changing the percentage of front vs rear braking never eliminating one end of the car or the other. Let's not also forget that brake balance adjustments are largely for braking under maximum stopping. If the ABS in game works like real world cars once you start getting close to maximum stopping power the ABS is going to step in and limit the braking at whichever axle has the higher braking pressure so at that point the brake balance adjustment kind of goes out the window, I dont know for a fact but that is probably the reason that you cant run BB at +5 and use the rear tires to steer the car, ABS takes over and keeps rear brakes from locking. Add on top of that that it appears that we can not completely eliminate ABS in game regardless of our settings.

 

[Rage Racer]

I think the entire braking mechanics in GTS is broken.

 

[fastone371]

I think the entire braking mechanics in GTS is broken.

I would not so much broken as FUBAR