Cars stepping out

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:lol:


Thanks for showing your true colors. I love how kids will make elaborate claims on the internet to win an argument then say something stupid like "I don't have to prove anything" when asked about their claim. Then they try to play it off like I they don't have to prove anything in order to win an argument. Why bring up what you do in the first place?;) Just to let you know. I'm the head tuner for the Ferrari racing team. ;)

BTW. The spelling of the word was correct. Just that you used the wrong form of the word in the sentence. ;)

:lol:

Kids......

Come back to me when you actually drive a car and grow up.

Wow I feel embarrassed that I went down to your level.

Have fun with your toy, kid.
 
:lol:

Kids......

Come back to me when you actually drive a car and grow up.

Wow I feel embarrassed that I went down to your level.

Have fun with your toy, kid.

I find it is funny that you are the one defending flawed physics.

I have been driving since I was 12 fyi and I know for a fact that cars do step out on flat and level surfaces.

If you believe otherwise it is obvious that YOU do not drive cars (and probably think GT is more realistic then real life.)
 
All this over tyre marks huh?

I like how people who complain that GT fans get easily offended when they get easily offended when GT fans point out how stupid their ideas are, such as implying that their dads' Honda Accord will step out if you give it enough gas.

Most people from America here have NEVER touched a stick shift car, since NA is 99% automatic, and 99% of the people have never driven a stick shift car with rear wheel drive. Almost NO ONE has driven a stick shift, rear wheel drive car, that has nearly enough power to make a car step out.

So let's all stop pretending to be Ferrari test drivers and get back to reality. I'm just glad that GT isn't being made by kids who grew up playing need for speed that think you drift by pulling the E brake.
 
All this over tyre marks huh?

I like how people who complain that GT fans get easily offended when they get easily offended when GT fans point out how stupid their ideas are, such as implying that their dads' Honda Accord will step out if you give it enough gas.

Most people from America here have NEVER touched a stick shift car, since NA is 99% automatic, and 99% of the people have never driven a stick shift car with rear wheel drive. Almost NO ONE has driven a stick shift, rear wheel drive car, that has nearly enough power to make a car step out.

So let's all stop pretending to be Ferrari test drivers and get back to reality. I'm just glad that GT isn't being made by kids who grew up playing need for speed that think you drift by pulling the E brake.

That couldn't be futher from the truth.👎
 
My "real simulator" has been in real cars. From 120HP Civics to 500WHP Turbocharged E36 M3s and I don't think the GT series is as good when it come to physics as some you guy are claiming it is. I understand there are many variables but the same will hold true for a limited slip RWD car when parked on a bank of Daytona. I don't care if it's 50 degrees or 90 degrees out and I also don't care if the car is running on race tires or all season tires, it will swing out to the lower part of the bank if you stomp on the gas and the rear wheels break loose with your hands off the steering wheel.

If he is a perfectionist then why are the AIs so freaking horrible? What? He can't figure out why race car drivers swerve out of the way to avoid hitting another car that lost control on the race track so he'll just make them follow in a line before he can figure that out? Give me a ****ing break. Some of you kids really to stop making excuses for the guy. I know he is a very likable guy and all and I think he is swell but a perfectionist he is NOT.

Let's see some proof or you're just blowing smoke out your ASS. Nobody drives these kinds of things without going to a track, track day, getting pics, whatever. So PROVE IT.

All this over tyre marks huh?

I like how people who complain that GT fans get easily offended when they get easily offended when GT fans point out how stupid their ideas are, such as implying that their dads' Honda Accord will step out if you give it enough gas.

Most people from America here have NEVER touched a stick shift car, since NA is 99% automatic, and 99% of the people have never driven a stick shift car with rear wheel drive. Almost NO ONE has driven a stick shift, rear wheel drive car, that has nearly enough power to make a car step out.

So let's all stop pretending to be Ferrari test drivers and get back to reality. I'm just glad that GT isn't being made by kids who grew up playing need for speed that think you drift by pulling the E brake.

Are you stupid?! Are you really that dumb? Go look at the SCCA website, and see just how many members they have, and I will guarantee you that 99.999999999% of those members own a stick shift. That's just SCCA, then you can go check out the Porsche car club of America, The BMW club, and the list goes on...
 
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:lol:

Kids......

Come back to me when you actually drive a car and grow up.

Wow I feel embarrassed that I went down to your level.

Have fun with your toy, kid.
Wow, you really lost that debate eh?! :lol:

Quiet_Storm made some perfectly valid comments regarding the flawed physics in GT, and this sequence of replies is how you retaliate. Kids? Yep, you would qualify as one of those. If you really were a tuner for Subaru, and were challenged on that, you would come straight out with the information and then deal with any "right, whatever..." replies. Instead you just show your weak mindedness by outright refusing to "prove it". Pathetic.

It is indeed rather sad that people cannot come on here and make conversation about a flaw in the game without getting flame-grilled. He didn't lie about what a car would do in real life on a camber, and he didn't lie that Forza handles that element better. Sure, there are plenty of other physics-related aspects you can debate one over the other, but that's besides the point. Kaz is not a perfectionist, as is quite evident from this debate, the weak sound, and rubber-band, "on rails" AI still present in the game. However, that is not to say that Gran Tursimo is a bad game. Learn the difference, and learn to communicate.
 
OK this calms down right NOW.

I have far better things to do that referee a slanging match between members.

This is a valid subject for discussion, its just a pity that the discussion is not currently going any place.

Clam down, discuss in a mature manner or I will lock this thread and start handing out (more) infractions and warnings.


Scaff
 
That couldn't be futher from the truth.👎
Yes, everyone SAYS they can drive manual, when they're almost always lying through their teeth. I've let 3 consecutive people try to drive my car because they say they can drive manual, only to stall time and time again. Never again will I let anyone touch my precious.

Let's see some proof or you're just blowing smoke out your ASS. Nobody drives these kinds of things without going to a track, track day, getting pics, whatever. So PROVE IT.



Are you stupid?! Are you really that dumb? Go look at the SCCA website, and see just how many members they have, and I will guarantee you that 99.999999999% of those members own a stick shift. That's just SCCA, then you can go check out the Porsche car club of America, The BMW club, and the list goes on...
I'm sure all 55000 members own a sports car and no one goes to lurk... and... wait... what's that? America has over 200 MILLION cars?

Go to car dealership > look in every car > see what percentage of cars has manual > weep

This whole discussion is stupid. Because as I've stated, GTPSP already does this stepping out thing, yet you peoples that complain that your opinions never get taken seriously by GT fans and you always get attacked keep on talking. As you'll see, I pointed this out on the very first page. It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you don't take others' seriously... (Post 53, the one with GIANT letters, if you're still wondering)

Personally, I don't even know why no mod has locked this topic yet. The feature is in GTPSP, it'll be in GT5, what's left to discuss?
 
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Pretty sure GTPSP has this, and also GT5P, can't remember since rarely do I launch a car so violently that it does that and subsequently puts me in last place.

Vaioleto, this post clarifies nothing for two resons:

1. You clearly state that you are "pretty sure" and "can't remember" so no confirmation there.

2. You state that GT5P has this, when infact it does not, further discrediting your post.

So please, save us all some more arguments and just take your ignorance elsewhere.
 
This whole discussion is stupid. Because as I've stated, GTPSP already does this stepping out thing

If you wouldn't mind, could you upload a video it happening?

I don't have (and don't plan to get) GTPSP.

Anyway, could you show a high powered, rear wheel drive car with an LSD differential "LSing" from a standing start with no steering input (both flat and cambered road if possible)
 
Well i dont want to compare wangs here but ive had quite abit of experience in high powered cars also. And more likely than not the fact that your mr2 doesn't step out is probably more down to a lack of power or a wearing lsd.

Its because the engine is transversly placed.... there is no axial torque on the chassis to cause the rear to swing...

If it happens in an MR2 it could be uneven weight distribution or if you have an LSD, it may be old and the plates have worn un evenly, which isnt uncommon in all cars really.
 
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Yes, everyone SAYS they can drive manual, when they're almost always lying through their teeth. I've let 3 consecutive people try to drive my car because they say they can drive manual, only to stall time and time again. Never again will I let anyone touch my precious.
Right so your personal experience of a sample size of three people can be applied to an entire country can it?

Quick answer is no, it can't. Its inaccurate and missleading.


I'm sure all 55000 members own a sports car and no one goes to lurk... and... wait... what's that? America has over 200 MILLION cars?

Go to car dealership > look in every car > see what percentage of cars has manual > weep
Yes the majority of cars sold in the US have automatic transmissions, however to then claim that its 99% of all drivers is a big jump.

You should also keep in mind that we are talking about driving enthusiasts here, a greater percentage of which are likely to go manual.




This whole discussion is stupid. Because as I've stated, GTPSP already does this stepping out thing, yet you peoples that complain that your opinions never get taken seriously by GT fans and you always get attacked keep on talking. As you'll see, I pointed this out on the very first page. It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you don't take others' seriously... (Post 53, the one with GIANT letters, if you're still wondering)
I would love to see some evidence of this, as I have GT PSP myself and have yet to see any evidence of it at all (and yes I have a good few cars that should do it in the game and don't).




Personally, I don't even know why no mod has locked this topic yet. The feature is in GTPSP, it'll be in GT5, what's left to discuss?
Well one the mods dislike being ignored only slightly less than we like being told what to do.

This is still very much a conversation for discussion, because I don't agree that its modeled in GT PSP (and its close cousin torque steer certainly isn't either), so it being in GT5 is not certain at all.



Scaff
 
Hang on a second everyone...

Get a Corvette ZO6/Ferrari 599GTB/Ford GT etc in GT5 Prologue, go to Daytona Infield course with a standing start on S2/3 tyres. Launch the car off the line with a full bore start... tell me what happens! Side step... :sly:
 
Hang on a second everyone...

Get a Corvette ZO6/Ferrari 599GTB/Ford GT etc in GT5 Prologue, go to Daytona Infield course with a standing start on S2/3 tyres. Launch the car off the line with a full bore start... tell me what happens! Side step... :sly:

and turn off TCS and ASM
 
If I'm not mistaken, is this 'stepping out' mechanism also featured in the NFS games? Particularly Most Wanted? If so, then I think I recall seeing something similar in GT5P.
 
Let me start with this, I apologize for calling you a retard, it was very immature of me.

Yes, everyone SAYS they can drive manual, when they're almost always lying through their teeth. I've let 3 consecutive people try to drive my car because they say they can drive manual, only to stall time and time again. Never again will I let anyone touch my precious.

I'm calling shenanigans on this one.

I'm sure all 55000 members own a sports car and no one goes to lurk... and... wait... what's that? America has over 200 MILLION cars?

The SCCA members PAY to be members, no one goes to "lurk". Also, a LOT of people that are NOT members to SCCA own a stick shift, and know how to drive one. You made an errant, and ignorant post, directed at the drivers here on this site from America. You basically said we have no knowledge on cars, because 1) we haven't ever touched a stick in the first place, and 2) even if we had, there's no way we have driven a car with enough power. Both of these statements are FALSE. I only spoke of my experience in MY MR2, but I have driven other cars, with quite a bit of power, but I only mentioned my MR2 because that's the one I have driven the most. You have definitely offended people by opening your mouth and letting those words come out.

Go to car dealership > look in every car > see what percentage of cars has manual > weep

What kind of car dealership are you going to? Because I can tell you some dealerships where you look in the cars and most of them will be manuals.
 
Its because the engine is transversly placed.... there is no axial torque on the chassis to cause the rear to swing...

If it happens in an MR2 it could be uneven weight distribution or if you have an LSD, it may be old and the plates have worn un evenly, which isnt uncommon in all cars really.

Sounds about right, but irrespective of the transverse layout, it is still possible to get the car to swing on a standing start, even without an LSD (albeit requiring more determination!).

Maybe everybody should try this little experiment:
Grab a pen, any will do, and try to push it away from you with one finger on one end of the pen. Try it again with more force (so it moves faster) - notice how it swings around, pivoting on the front-end of the pen.
Now, clearly, this is flawed since you're not always pushing parallel to the pen, but it is still demonstrative. It works better if the surface interaction is a bit 'sticky'

What we have, then, is an unstable system resulting from the rear wheels pushing through the chassis to the front wheels (which are resisting forward movement). Hence the rear-end acts like a ball on the sat atop a curved surface - which way will it roll?

OK, if you push the ball a little bit in one direction, it's most likely to fall that way, hence why it may seem that cars always pivot in one direction. But then again, I'd imagine that the particular phenomenon mentioned (chassis twist?) is dependant on the direction of crank rotation...

I can only comment on GT up to and including GT5P, which I have only played with a Sixaxis controller thus far. Anyway, the Tuscan with "normal" tyres (don't remember which precisely, probably the slippiest, knowing me...) and Pro physics did exhibit some interesting momentum swings that I never came across in GT4, but were reminiscent of those found in other games / sims (say, GPL). I didn't really try any standing starts properly, so can't comment, but I imagine that if you impart any kind of sideways movement into the rear-end when the wheels are spinning, it will pivot around. Maybe the physics engine isn't yet able to initiate this sideways momentum, perhaps due to separate handling of lateral and longitudinal slip on the tyres. Coupling these is no trivial matter and requires experience and extensive testing.
 
I would love to see some evidence of this, as I have GT PSP myself and have yet to see any evidence of it at all (and yes I have a good few cars that should do it in the game and don't).

If you wouldn't mind, could you upload a video it happening?

I don't have (and don't plan to get) GTPSP.

Anyway, could you show a high powered, rear wheel drive car with an LSD differential "LSing" from a standing start with no steering input (both flat and cambered road if possible)

Vaioleto, this post clarifies nothing for two resons:

1. You clearly state that you are "pretty sure" and "can't remember" so no confirmation there.

2. You state that GT5P has this, when infact it does not, further discrediting your post.

So please, save us all some more arguments and just take your ignorance elsewhere.
Take GTPSP, go to pro physics with all assists off, get a rear wheel drive car over around 300 HP+, stop completely somewhere, hold brake and throttle at the same time. max out the rev, release brake, watch magic happen.

This DOES happen in GTPSP, EVERYTIME I race, since GTPSP has grid starts. I was PRETTY SURE that GT5P also does this but it's less noticable since most are rolling starts, which is why I said I rarely see it since I never come to a full stop during a race.

I don't feel like making a video, but if you want confirmation, go ask around in the GTPSP forum. Inform yourselves.

So far I've had the Mazda Furai step out massively to the right on Twin ring motegi, the Mazda RX-7 LM Race car step out at Nurburgring, and the Mazda RX-7 '02 step out a tiny bit during grid starts. Ferrari Enzo, Corvette ZR1 also does this, so does... every other car with sufficient power.
 
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Its also worth mentioning this 'phenomenon' occurs more in lighter cars where the torque has more influence over the mass of the vehicle.

Big hulks like a AMG Merc' would be more likely to just draw a nice set of 11's down the road (if we had tyremarks :scared: ).

A TVR in this case would be a good test vehicle, low weight, high torque output, front engine, longitudinally mounted driving the rear wheels.

As to why it matters..some people (myself included) enjoy the odd session now and again just messing about on the skidpan.

In fact, that would be a cool add-on, something as simple as being able to place cones on a skid pan allowing you to set up your own auto discipline (cant remember the proper name) course..hours of fun
 
Take GTPSP, go to pro physics with all assists off, get a rear wheel drive car over around 300 HP+, stop completely somewhere, hold brake and throttle at the same time. max out the rev, release brake, watch magic happen.

This DOES happen in GTPSP, EVERYTIME I race, since GTPSP has grid starts. I was PRETTY SURE that GT5P also does this but it's less noticable since most are rolling starts, which is why I said I rarely see it since I never come to a full stop during a race.

Just tried the Buick Special '62, Lambo 25th Anniversary and ZR-1 at the driving park. From a stop with the handbrake on I get no step out in time trial and still none in a race either.

Every one of the cars just smokes its tyres and then pulls away in a straight line, no step out at all.

I used Pro physics, all aids off, a range of tyres and for good measure made sure I didn't touch the steering.


Scaff
 
Just tried the Buick Special '62, Lambo 25th Anniversary and ZR-1 at the driving park. From a stop with the handbrake on I get no step out in time trial and still none in a race either.

Every one of the cars just smokes its tyres and then pulls away in a straight line, no step out at all.

I used Pro physics, all aids off, a range of tyres and for good measure made sure I didn't touch the steering.


Scaff
Does this 60's American Muscle car with like 500 HP have a limited slip diff? Please know your subject before you attempt an experiment.

Also, why don't you try some of the cars I mentioned? The RX-7s aren't that expensive.
 
Does this 60's American Muscle car with like 500 HP have a limited slip diff? Please know your subject before you attempt an experiment.

Also, why don't you try some of the cars I mentioned? The RX-7s aren't that expensive.

I tested what I had quickly at hand, and for the record the '62 Buick is a heavily customised SEMA award winning car rebuilt in 2002/2003, and yes it does have an LSD.

In addition both of the other cars I have mentioned have LSD's as standard, so I don't see the problem being that.

I will try other cars, but I would also watch accusation of not knowing a subject when you don't know the person you are talking to. Being 'off' with people who wish to discuss the subject just because the come up with different results to you could well be considered rude.

I would also remind you that you said (quite clearly)....

Take GTPSP, go to pro physics with all assists off, get a rear wheel drive car over around 300 HP+, stop completely somewhere, hold brake and throttle at the same time. max out the rev, release brake, watch magic happen.

...nothing about having to use the same cars as you (that I did use the ZR-1 seems to have escaped you as well).


Scaff
 
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I guess the next thing ppl will ask, will be for cars to start doing wheelies at launch.

Then ppl will start asking for launch Control for the GTR , to break the transmission , after a couple launches.
 
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I tested what I had quickly at hand, and for the record the '62 Buick is a heavily customised SEMA award winning car rebuilt in 2002/2003, and yes it does have an LSD.

In addition both of the other cars I have mentioned have LSD's as standard, so I don't see the problem being that.

I will try other cars, but I would also watch accusation of not knowing a subject when you don't know the person you are talking to. Being 'off' with people who wish to discuss the subject just because the come up with different results to you could well be considered rude.

I would also remind you that you said (quite clearly)....



...nothing about having to use the same cars as you (that I did use the ZR-1 seems to have escaped you as well).


Scaff
I have that buick. The one that has over 500 horsepowers I think, and the rear is so light that if you even touch the throttle at over 150 kph even, the tires will spin. It won't have enough traction to make the car step out, and I don't think it has a limited slip diff, or a really really bad one. I think this because when you turn in that car and apply throttle, both tires spin like crazy, LSD prevents that.

I thought the having LSD thing was common knowledge, since, I don't know, people only spent a whole topic arguing about it.
 
I have that buick. The one that has over 500 horsepowers I think, and the rear is so light that if you even touch the throttle at over 150 kph even, the tires will spin. It won't have enough traction to make the car step out, and I don't think it has a limited slip diff, or a really really bad one. I think this because when you turn in that car and apply throttle, both tires spin like crazy, LSD prevents that.
The Buick does have an LSD, and since when has low weight stopped an LSD fitted TVR/Caterham/Cobra stepping out when it takes off?

That also completely ignores the other two cars, one of which is the same as you tested.


I thought the having LSD thing was common knowledge, since, I don't know, people only spent a whole topic arguing about it.
Which thread? If its the one I'm thinking off you may want to review my comments on it before jumping to assumptions.


Scaff
 
The Buick does have an LSD, and since when has low weight stopped an LSD fitted TVR/Caterham/Cobra stepping out when it takes off?

That also completely ignores the other two cars, one of which is the same as you tested.



Which thread? If its the one I'm thinking off you may want to review my comments on it before jumping to assumptions.


Scaff
Since the rear is so light. Weight balance, not curb weight. You need to keep testing high performance cars. they don't have to head straight for a wall for it to qualify as stepping out, as most cars only have a slight change in direction from a flat out launch. The physics is definitely there, I don't know why you aren't getting results.
 
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Since the rear is so light. Weight balance, not curb weight. You need to keep testing high performance cars. they don't have to head straight for a wall for it to qualify as stepping out, as most cars only have a slight change in direction.

Yes because the rear on a TVR is not light at all is it?

Please stop distracting from the main subject at hand, I am more than aware of what is required for this situation to occur, and the degree to which can occur (because funny enough I've experienced it many times in real life - a few decades working on the motor industry will do that for you).


I have, as requested by you, tested a mixture of cars none of which has stepped out yet. One of those cars is EXACTLY the same as one you have tested.

However you seem to be more interested in dismissing out of hand what I have found than using it as a basis for discussion. If that is the case, then this is not exactly going to be a very useful to anyone, if you simply ignore what anyone who doesn't agree with you has in terms of results.

A much more reasonable and valid direction would be to look at how you got the ZR-1 to step out and compare that to my results (as I can't get it to do the same).

I'm more than willing to discuss this in depth and carry out experimentation on the subject (as you will find if you look at my post history), however I am not willing to do so if the other party simply refuses to accept the input I provide.


Scaff
 
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