Cars stepping out

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cicohipe

cicohipe

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eggs2see
No one has ever mentioned this that i am aware of, yet it has always bugged me about the GT series. When you launch a car in real life and get a large amount of wheel spin you car's rear end will slide to the left. It always moves to the left and i believe this is something to do with torque transfer through the differential or something. Some games have showed this (Forza being one) but Gran Turismo has never had this, and the main reason this bugs me is it shows a design flaw in their physics engine.
 
Careful now, saying that GT is flawed compared to Forza in anyway will bring the army of fanboys into this thread no matter how correct what you say is.
 
cicohipe
No one has ever mentioned this that i am aware of, yet it has always bugged me about the GT series. When you launch a car in real life and get a large amount of wheel spin you car's rear end will slide to the left. It always moves to the left and i believe this is something to do with torque transfer through the differential or something. Some games have showed this (Forza being one) but Gran Turismo has never had this, and the main reason this bugs me is it shows a design flaw in their physics engine.
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Well, I can say from quite a bit of personal experience that (at least in an MR2 turbo) the car really doesn't swing out while I am spinning the tires. I know that there are a lot of cars that do, but that is usually caused by different amounts of grip on the road.
 
It's due to the torque and the gyroscopic effects the wheels create whilst spinning I think. Either way, I don't really regard it in high importance...
 
cicohipe
No one has ever mentioned this that i am aware of, yet it has always bugged me about the GT series. When you launch a car in real life and get a large amount of wheel spin you car's rear end will slide to the left. It always moves to the left and i believe this is something to do with torque transfer through the differential or something. Some games have showed this (Forza being one) but Gran Turismo has never had this, and the main reason this bugs me is it shows a design flaw in their physics engine.
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I'll prolly get labeled as a troll for this post but I'm just gonna be honest here.

GT's physics needs some serious work. People see the realistic graphics and it tricks them into believing that other things are more realistic than they actually are.

The collision physics need work, the fact that you can grind along the rails at 150mph and actually accelerate while doing it.

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Or the fact that you can just, as you say, punch the gas on even the most powerful of cars, not loose control and speed off in a perfectly straight line. Still no tire deformation ect.

All these things add up and they tell me that GT's physics are missing some very fundamental calculations and are not nearly as realistic as many people give them credit for.

There are other games with more complete, more realistic physics/handling models.

webbo
It's due to the torque and the gyroscopic effects the wheels create whilst spinning I think. Either way, I don't really regard it in high importance...
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You don't regard realistic handling as high importance?
 
RedSuinit
Well, I can say from quite a bit of personal experience that (at least in an MR2 turbo) the car really doesn't swing out while I am spinning the tires. I know that there are a lot of cars that do, but that is usually caused by different amounts of grip on the road.
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Well i dont want to compare wangs here but ive had quite abit of experience in high powered cars also. And more likely than not the fact that your mr2 doesn't step out is probably more down to a lack of power or a wearing lsd.
 
cicohipe
Well i dont want to compare wangs here but ive had quite abit of experience in high powered cars also. And more likely than not the fact that your mr2 doesn't step out is probably more down to a lack of power or a wearing lsd.
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Perhaps, I am only making 210 at the wheels...
 
Thing is these other games are not simulating the reasons behind it as far as I know, they are adding a simple function to the physics which tell the car to crab in situations they have coded in.

Simply adding "left side movement when car wheelspins at stop/low speed" function is not hard to do and is also not a sign of a great physics engine. It would be nice but I don't think PD will have it until they model the actual reasons behind it not just add a artificial function on for it.
 
this bugged me aswell however the truth is i feel in prologue they did a reasonable job of it. you feel the rearend slightly moving to the side and if your steering wheel moves a little so does the car needing you to counter steer which is as you would expect.
 
Jay hit the nail on the head so to speak. Kaz is a perfectionist, he has to model the physics perfectly. So until his team decides it is important enough it will not "step out" like it should.
 
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Whatever then. Maybe you should read the whole thread. If it still doesn't make sense then sorry. I can not help you.
 
cletus 669
Whatever then. Maybe you should read the whole thread. If it still doesn't make sense then sorry. I can not help you.
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No, what you just said is "Kaz is a perfectionist, he has to model the physics perfectly. So untill he decides that realistic physics are important enough to model properly, he won't model them perfectly like he should" :dunce:
 
cicohipe
Well i dont want to compare wangs here but ive had quite abit of experience in high powered cars also. And more likely than not the fact that your mr2 doesn't step out is probably more down to a lack of power or a wearing lsd.
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I would say a LACK of an LSD diff.

Single spinners don't crab according to MY personal experiences.
 
cletus 669
Jay hit the nail on the head so to speak. Kaz is a perfectionist, he has to model the physics perfectly. So until his team decides it is important enough it will not "step out" like it should.
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Learn to read and do not change my words around just to start a flame war! I am done with you. Like I said before I guess I cant help you understand simple English!
 
Yeah only LSD`s will crab to left,from experiances. and watching variuos video`s etc. Single spinners just fry that right hand tyre :p:
 
cicohipe
No one has ever mentioned this that i am aware of, yet it has always bugged me about the GT series. When you launch a car in real life and get a large amount of wheel spin you car's rear end will slide to the left. It always moves to the left and i believe this is something to do with torque transfer through the differential or something. Some games have showed this (Forza being one) but Gran Turismo has never had this, and the main reason this bugs me is it shows a design flaw in their physics engine.
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I too wish for this, I own an R32 Skyline and if it doesn't whip out like it does in real life, I'll be upset :(!
 
Simple SIM
No, what you just said is "Kaz is a perfectionist, he has to model the physics perfectly. So untill he decides that realistic physics are important enough to model properly, he won't model them perfectly like he should" :dunce:
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Sorry, but no... What he was implying is that since obtaining physics perfection is so important to Kaz he won't implement a feature that he can't have modeled perfectly. SO UNTIL he and his team can model the REASONS behind the step out, and then model the following step out properly, without it just being a standard one code for all cars deal, he WON'T do it. Because it won't be done PROPERLY, and it'll be a hackjob physics code just to have it in the game. Nice job twisting words there SIM. 👍 TROLL ALERT.
 
Pretty sure GTPSP has this, and also GT5P, can't remember since rarely do I launch a car so violently that it does that and subsequently puts me in last place.
 
FyreandIce
I would say a LACK of an LSD diff.

Single spinners don't crab according to MY personal experiences.
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If an LSD is what causes the crab, then that would be why my MR2 does not step out. It's a '91 with the stock drivetrain, they didn't offer the LSD until '93. Even then it was optional, but after '93 it was stock on all turbo models.
 
And then there's the dreadful experience called Corvette Z06 and co, that step out at 120mph+.. :eek:
 
This feature wouldn't be missed by the hundreds of thousands of others that will buy this game and play it on their Dulashock3's.

If you want a Full Sim then you need to start looking into other options. Gran Turismo is a Game, not a full simulator. And it's for that reason above that the game isn't a simulator: Because the larger general consumer base that ISN'T on gtplanet (*gasp*) doesn't care for the minute details.

Kaz has said himself that they've always made their games d-pad friendly. Though the useage of more complex controllers continues to enhance the experience, the day they make a GT game that's wheel only is the day they're no longer owned by Sony and making games for computers that cost hundreds of dollars more.

For anyone that strives for realism, subscribe to iRacing, or better yet... go out and get a Miata and do it for real.
 
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A right-hand-drive RWD car steps left on standing start wheelspin because of the crown in the road. Racetracks are not crowned, therefore this effect would not be seen on a track.
 
Snaeper
This feature wouldn't be missed by the hundreds of thousands of others that will buy this game and play it on their Dulashock3's.

If you want a Full Sim then you need to start looking into other options. Gran Turismo is a Game, not a full simulator. And it's for that reason above that the game isn't a simulator: Because the larger general consumer base that ISN'T on gtplanet (*gasp*) doesn't care for the minute details.

Kaz has said himself that they've always made their games d-pad friendly. Though the useage of more complex controllers continues to enhance the experience, the day they make a GT game that's wheel only is the day they're no longer owned by Sony and making games for computers that cost hundreds of dollars more.

For anyone that strives for realism, subscribe to iRacing, or better yet... go out and get a Miata and do it for real.
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There is nothing hard about controlling a car that is stepping out using a controller, i don't really know what your getting at. Other than just blindly supporting GT.

GilesGuthrie
A right-hand-drive RWD car steps left on standing start wheelspin because of the crown in the road. Racetracks are not crowned, therefore this effect would not be seen on a track.
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That is simply not correct, please don't spread misinformation.
 
Actually, he is atleast partially correct. there would be more weight on the right side rear wheel in an RHD car, thus, the left one owuld let go first, and vice versa in LHD.. but that means that your LSD isn't locking properly. :D
 
Leonidae
Actually, he is atleast partially correct. there would be more weight on the right side rear wheel in an RHD car, thus, the left one owuld let go first, and vice versa in LHD.. but that means that your LSD isn't locking properly. :D
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He's not partially correct, he is stating a completely different hypothesis for why this event occurs when it has already been stated why this happens and it is to do with the torque being transfered through the car which is always done the same direction and has nothing to do with the minor weight of the driver, what side he is on or the crown in the road.
 
GilesGuthrie
A right-hand-drive RWD car steps left on standing start wheelspin because of the crown in the road. Racetracks are not crowned, therefore this effect would not be seen on a track.
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You're almost right, the effect can be seen on the track but it's to a lesser degree. On a perfectly flat surface you will not see a car stepping out for an reason other than a grip or weight difference from one side of the car to the other.

cicohipe
That is simply not correct, please don't spread misinformation.
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He isn't, it's physics. On a flat surface the only physical force telling the car to step out one way over the other is weight. Unless you have your car setup odd like a NASCAR on an oval setup.

cicohipe
He's not partially correct, he is stating a completely different hypothesis for why this event occurs when it has already been stated why this happens and it is to do with the torque being transfered through the car which is always done the same direction and has nothing to do with the minor weight of the driver, what side he is on or the crown in the road.
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The torque is still transferred to both wheels, but torque steer only happens to front wheel drive cars. Unless I'm missunderstanding you. which is entirely possible.
 
cicohipe
There is nothing hard about controlling a car that is stepping out using a controller, i don't really know what your getting at. Other than just blindly supporting GT.
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Why implement a feature that doesn't make any difference and nobody will care about? That costs time and time costs money.

I'm just relating the fact that the majority of people that wish for more realistic features are usually the die-hards. The have the wheel set-ups they spend a good deal of money etc. The people that pay the checks for Sony and PD are the ones that use the basic controller. And they couldn't really care less about features such as this. If they did they don't care enough to say anything, rather they just wouldn't buy the next game.
 

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