Cars Suggestions problem

[tankuroded]

This entry in the Cars Suggestions forum shows that the place has reached a new low.

The current rules of the Cars Suggestions forum for racing cars are:

Specific racing model: [[Make] [Model] OR [[Chassis] [Engine]] [Series/Level if applicable] [Team] [Number/Drivers if applicable] [Year]
Example: [McLaren] [MP4/8] [Lamborghini] [1993] = McLaren MP4/8 Lamborghini 1993
Example: [Peugeot] [306 Cosworth] [BTRDA Rally Car] [#9 Andy Burton] [2011] = Peugeot 306 Cosworth BTRDA Rally Car #9 Andy Burton 2011
Example: [Toyota] [Avensis] [BTCC] [Handy Motorsport] [#11 Simon Belcher] [2014] = Toyota Avensis BTCC Handy Motorsport #11 Simon Belcher 2014

While the original TS020 suggestion (originally titled Toyota GT-One (TS020) [Premium] 1999) would have been fine under rule the MP4/8 example, I have been seeing @Harsk100 insisting that every separate livery be in their own separate suggestion, hence the creation of the #1 TS020 suggestion. Both the #1 and #3 (and #2) were run by the same team - Toyota Team Europe, and the visual differences, while obvious, were slight.

I feel this promotes redundancy. By his logic, for instance, if I suggest a Red Bull RB8 for instance, do I have to create two separate threads:

Red Bull RB8 Renault #7 Sebastian Vettel 2012
Red Bull RB8 Renault #8 Mark Webber 2012

while a single suggestion titled Red Bull RB8 Renault 2012 is enough? (I don't know I have to mention F1 or not)

This is really, really confusing and infuriating. I also feel that, while the Cars Suggestion forum needs more moderation/moderators, @Harsk100 is mini-modding that place.

Is there anything the moderators can do about this?

 

[Harsk100]

I'm Sorry...

But there is a rule which can be only one racing number livery per thread.

For example, I tried to put #64 and #63 Corvette C5R and after, I had to choose one of them.

 

[tankuroded]

But there is a rule which can be only one racing number livery per thread.

Which rule? Plus the livery differences on those TS020 are sponsor stickers - and that's it.

EDIT: Either way you are backseat moderating.

 

[Harsk100]

Which rule? Plus the livery differences on those TS020 are sponsor stickers - and that's it.

I understand that suggesting an sepparate liveries pissed you off, but as GT does not have livery editor yet, so GTPlanet Suggestions has the following rule is:

We can pick only one livery and only one racing number to avoid confusion.

For example, I had the #64 and #63 and few minutes later, I had to remove the #63 car as we can have only one car per thread.

Here's the link of COrvette C5R #64:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/chevrolet-corvette-c5r-le-mans-64-premium-2000.317576/

 

[tankuroded]

I understand that suggesting an sepparate liveries pissed you off, but as GT does not have livery editor yet, so GTPlanet Suggestions has the following rule is:

We can pick only one livery and only one racing number to avoid confusion.

For example, I had the #64 and #63 and few minutes later, I had to remove the #63 car as we can have only one car per thread.

Here's the link of COrvette C5R #64:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/chevrolet-corvette-c5r-le-mans-64-premium-2000.317576/

My problem is that {1} the current rule promotes redundancy and {2} you are backseat modding.

Redudancies like this are the reason why the Cars Suggestion forum are declining in quality.

 

[Harsk100]

My problem is that {1} the current rule promotes redundancy and {2} you are backseat modding.

Redudancies like this are the reason why the Cars Suggestion forum are declining in quality.

OK then. But if some of liveries that I suggested are repeated, then I'll change the title of the thread for a new car.

 

[Northstar]

Redundancies like this are the reason why the Cars Suggestion forum are declining in quality.

Yeah, because the fact people have been reduced to simply suggesting a car because it hasn't been suggested yet instead of cars they actually like totally hasn't had any ill effects.

 

[Harsk100]

But would you rather have only #3 TS020? Or an complete #1, #2 and #3?

 

[MrUnknown]

But would you rather have only #3 TS020? Or an complete #1, #2 and #3?

Pretty much you don't understand this whole situation...

 

[88FoxBodyFan]

I understand that suggesting an sepparate liveries pissed you off, but as GT does not have livery editor yet, so GTPlanet Suggestions has the following rule is:

We can pick only one livery and only one racing number to avoid confusion.

For example, I had the #64 and #63 and few minutes later, I had to remove the #63 car as we can have only one car per thread.

Here's the link of COrvette C5R #64:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/chevrolet-corvette-c5r-le-mans-64-premium-2000.317576/

Famine clearly said in the very link you posted that he literally didn't care if all the car numbers were in the same thread. You even liked the post he said it in. He also posted a picture in the same thread that pretty much said the same thing. Why are you acting like he said you had to remove some car numbers? You didn't have to remove the #63 Corvette.

 

[Famine]

This entry in the Cars Suggestions forum shows that the place has reached a new low.

The current rules of the Cars Suggestions forum for racing cars are:


While the original TS020 suggestion (originally titled Toyota GT-One (TS020) [Premium] 1999) would have been fine under rule the MP4/8 example, I have been seeing @Harsk100 insisting that every separate livery be in their own separate suggestion, hence the creation of the #1 TS030 suggestion. Both the #1 and #3 (and #2) were run by the same team - Toyota Team Europe, and the visual differences, while obvious, were slight.

I feel this promotes redundancy. By his logic, for instance, if I suggest a Red Bull RB8 for instance, do I have to create two separate threads:

Red Bull RB8 Renault #7 Sebastian Vettel 2012
Red Bull RB8 Renault #8 Mark Webber 2012

while a single suggestion titled Red Bull RB8 Renault 2012 is enough? (I don't know I have to mention F1 or not)

This is really, really confusing and infuriating.

By and large I'm fine with it - there's no real hard and fast rule with how Polyphony treats liveries, with some cars being multiple liveries with one entry (Audi R8 #1/#2, Pescarolo #16/#17, the Ferrari F1 cars [which were four liveries in one], the March mm-R Cup Car, the Clio Trophy and some of the fictional race cars) but some being one entry for each livery (NASCAR stock cars).

So if people want to suggest a specific livery that's fine - they might like Webber but hate Vettel - but if they want to suggest both of those RB8s that's fine too.

I also feel that, while the Cars Suggestion forum needs more moderation/moderators, @Harsk100 is mini-modding that place.

Is there anything the moderators can do about this?

"Mini-modding" is fine, depending on context. Digging up a year old thread just to say the title isn't formatted correctly is not fine - the current ruleset was created long after the forum's origin, so these threads aren't expected to be titled totally correctly yet - especially if the user doesn't get a notification about it, but pointing it out in a current thread is fine.

When you say it needs more moderators, what do you mean? The top 20 pages or so are entirely correctly formatted, as is almost everything alphabetical down to Ferrari - and I've only seen three threads this weekend that needed any correction...

 

[tankuroded]

By and large I'm fine with it - there's no real hard and fast rule with how Polyphony treats liveries, with some cars being multiple liveries with one entry (Audi R8 #1/#2, Pescarolo #16/#17, the Ferrari F1 cars [which were four liveries in one], the March mm-R Cup Car, the Clio Trophy and some of the fictional race cars) but some being one entry for each livery (NASCAR stock cars).

So if people want to suggest a specific livery that's fine - they might like Webber but hate Vettel - but if they want to suggest both of those RB8s that's fine too.

Problem is, ever since Harsk and @StarLight (who gave the idea about what Harsk is doing right now) allegedly misrepresented your "meme" in the C5.R thread ("I have no strong feelings - One way or the other") Harsk has been pushing his view of "one livery per request" to everyone's else throats. Here's the @StarLight post:

Rescue plan #64
1: Edit the title ... remove #63
2: Edit the OP, same here remove picture of #63
3: Famine will be satisfied.
4: Problem solved

In response to SL's Step 3, you (Famine) said that you literally don't care about it.

 

[Harsk100]

Problem is, ever since Harsk and @StarLight (who gave the idea about what Harsk is doing right now) allegedly misrepresented your "meme" in the C5.R thread ("I have no strong feelings - One way or the other") Harsk has been pushing his view of "one livery per request" to everyone's else throats. Here's the @StarLight post:



In response to SL's Step 3, you (Famine) said that you literally don't care about it.

I'm not complaining. I'm just limiting myself to follow the guidelines.

 

[Famine]

Harsk has been pushing his view of "one livery per request" to everyone's else throats.

I've not really seen that and I'm not entirely sure anyone would pay attention anyway.

I will add that, while I don't have a problem with people suggesting specific liveries of an individual car or grouping them together, people who are making multiple threads for different liveries of the same car should probably group them in the one thread - though it's not a particular problem if they don't (except for backlash from other members for probable like-farming).

I'd also suggest that if different liveries encompass different years of competition (I've recently seen different threads for a car used in 1977 and 1980), it's likely that the cars are subtly different and should be in different threads.

 

[tankuroded]

OK, it's not really pushing to everyone's else throats, but he's asking people to pick one livery like in here.

I'd also suggest that if different liveries encompass different years of competition (I've recently seen different threads for a car used in 1977 and 1980), it's likely that the cars are subtly different and should be in different threads.

Oh yeah I do agree (see the 1998 and 1999 TS020 - they are "legally" in ACO's sense in different class), but in this case, the different livery encompasses only one year of competition. 💡

 

[Famine]

OK, it's not really pushing to everyone's else throats, but he's asking people to pick one livery like in here.

Then again, there it's the difference between a fresh suggestion and a Premium upgrade - the #3 '99 car is already in the game and so it's a premium upgrade, but the #1/#2 aren't and they're fresh suggestions.

If the same user has made threads for the #1 and #2 cars they should probably be in a single thread - I'd probably prefer one thread for #1/#2 and one thread for #3 in this case, but I wouldn't argue too hard against individual threads for each or even one thread for all three.

 

[Tornado]

I have to say, after the more recent Cerbera Speed 12 thread was locked on the basis of being a duplicate even after that guy tried to detail all of the changes from the model already in the game, a lot of the words regarding what the rules are for allowing duplicates ring pretty hollow.

Especially the ones like this thread is talking about, where the OP says "Look, a number 1 instead of a number 3!" or "Look, this is a Ferrari F12 except this one has a stripe!" or infamously (but, admittedly, eventually fixed) "Look, this Lexus concept car is blue instead of red!"

 

[Famine]

I have to say, after the more recent Cerbera Speed 12 thread was locked on the basis of being a duplicate even after that guy tried to detail all of the changes from the model already in the game, a lot of the words regarding what the rules are for allowing duplicates ring pretty hollow.

That's a specific case that is unusual in that there has only ever been the one actual Cerbera Speed Twelve and, while it looks a bit different now, that's the car that's in GT4, 5 and 6. Since a Premium upgrade to that car would require a remodelling and there's only the one of them to model, that upgrade would adopt the current form, thus the two threads are requesting the same end product...

Especially the ones like this thread is talking about, where the OP says "Look, a number 1 instead of a number 3!"

Again, I don't have a problem with that and neither do Polyphony.

or "Look, this is a Ferrari F12 except this one has a stripe!"

As above - see the Ford GT (Stripe) or the Evo 6 TME SCP.

or infamously (but, admittedly, eventually fixed) "Look, this Lexus concept car is blue instead of red!"

And the Nissan Skyline (R34) GT-R Midnight Purple III...

 

[Tornado]

That's a specific case that is unusual in that there has only ever been the one actual Cerbera Speed Twelve and, while it looks a bit different now, that's the car that's in GT4, 5 and 6. Since a Premium upgrade to that car would require a remodelling and there's only the one of them to model, that upgrade would adopt the current form, thus the two threads are requesting the same end product...

I don't think that follows PD's actual modeling practices for Premium cars as we know of them (the ones that were constructed into something different than what they had access to; recreating cars that no longer exist based off of nothing but photographs and technical documents) so I believe my comment on the inconsistency in moderation stands.

And the Nissan Skyline (R34) GT-R Midnight Purple III...

And unless the thread OP requested a merge himself, that one was changed into one thread; so it again comes off as inconsistent. Perhaps you can shed light on what happened, perhaps not. I'm merely commenting on what I've seen.

 

[Famine]

I don't think that follows PD's actual modeling practices for Premium cars as we know of them (the ones that were constructed into something different than what they had access to; recreating cars that no longer exist based off of nothing but photographs and technical documents) so I believe my comment on the inconsistency in moderation stands.

I don't know anything about PD's actual modelling practices beyond the footage they've published of the way they capture real cars. With that in mind the only way I'm aware of to 'premiumise' the Speed Twelve is to get hold of it and photograph it again - and W112BHG looks like it does now (well, it did last June), not how it did in 2000.

And unless the thread OP requested a merge himself, that one was changed into one thread; so it again comes off as inconsistent. Perhaps you can shed light on what happened, perhaps not. I'm merely commenting on what I've seen.

I was talking about Polyphony's treatment of cars in the game...

I've not got down as far as "N" yet - the first 40 or so pages of year-first cars took most of my willpower and I'm still stuck at "F" alphabetically - so I've no idea if someone nominated that as an individual model or what actions were taken when it happened. Unless it was very recent - you'll notice that the first 15 or so pages of most-recent threads are also nice and clean now. But PD will happily create a new entry for a car with different colour paint, a stripe or a different number

The again, sometimes they won't.

Perhaps when I've dealt with the problem of crappily-titled and just plain bad threads I'll get onto streamlining less overtly duplicated nominations.

 

[Tornado]

I don't know anything about PD's actual modelling practices beyond the footage they've published of the way they capture real cars. With that in mind the only way I'm aware of to 'premiumise' the Speed Twelve is to get hold of it and photograph it again - and W112BHG looks like it does now (well, it did last June), not how it did in 2000.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. PD themselves released information about how they recreated that Isuzu concept car when it burned to the ground decades ago. The process they used (at least in broad strokes) was detailed on the GT website for several years. It might still be there, but after the GT6 site revamp I don't really know. Perhaps the circumstances don't lend themselves to recreation for a TVR one-off like it did for an Isuzu one-off, but if you don't know if they can do it what is the grounds for saying that everyone would functionally be getting the new car so a thread heavily implied to be solely about the old car and a thread explicitly detailed to be solely about the new car aren't necessary?





And regardless of whether they can recreate it, then the question becomes how far down the well you want to go. This car:

Doesn't seem to exist anymore, if recent evidence is anything to go by. At best, it's sitting in a museum somewhere after having been converted to 1998 race spec. At worst, it was scrapped entirely after what could be used as stripped off. Either way, the people who want that car can't have it based on PD's usual methods of modeling cars. Should the thread about it be locked, based on that new information? Serious, not-remotely-smartass question.

I'm not criticizing your ability to moderate that forum. I'm not saying you should know everything about what is going on at any point in time in that forum. I'm trying to discern the logic behind the decisions being made regarding nominations and whether they are counted as duplicates of existing nominations.

I was talking about Polyphony's treatment of cars in the game...

And to be blunt I never was, nor am I really concerned with how PD pads their car list in practice. I was only ever talking about the apparent oddness of the above TVR situation and the Lexus, where moderation was taken on the basis of the two being duplicates; and two other examples, where moderation wasn't. I can think of one more example on each side of the coin as well. You brought up the Midnight Purple Skylines as a point of comparison for PD's actions in response to the point about the Lexus concept, I was talking about how the two threads about the same Lexus in two different colors is now one thread about the same Lexus with both colors contained therein so someone apparently didn't think that reasoning held.

Perhaps when I've dealt with the problem of crappily-titled and just plain bad threads I'll get onto streamlining less overtly duplicated nominations.

Again, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm not saying you're failing to live up to some standard. I'm aware that just because you're usually the only one moderating that subforum doesn't mean you know anything and everything that goes on it.


I'm asking a question for the purposes of rule clarification.

 

[Famine]

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

I hope you're referring to the process and not my knowledge of it there...

I've not seen anything about the process you're talking about, so I don't know about it. All I know about is how they sample real cars.

Either way, the people who want that car can't have it based on PD's usual methods of modeling cars. Should the thread about it be locked, based on that new information? Serious, not-remotely-smartass question.

No. A car that 'no longer exists' is not the same as a car that does exist but only in a new form.

And to be blunt I never was, nor am I really concerned with how PD pads their car list in practice.

Okay then, let me clarify the original exchange with a bit of bolding and a couple of extra words.

Especially the ones like this thread is talking about, where the OP says "Look, a number 1 instead of a number 3!"

Again, I don't have a problem with that and neither do Polyphony.

or "Look, this is a Ferrari F12 except this one has a stripe!"

As above - see the Ford GT (Stripe) or the Evo 6 TME SCP.

or infamously (but, admittedly, eventually fixed) "Look, this Lexus concept car is blue instead of red!"

As above - see the Nissan Skyline (R34) GT-R Midnight Purple III...

Summary: If PD don't have a problem with it neither do I. You'll notice - since I mentioned it - that there is no consistency to how Polyphony does it either and that means that sometimes we have to make a distinction between a car that's already in the game getting a premium upgrade nomination and an identical car that isn't getting a standalone nomination. I don't know what I can do about that - but it isn't exactly on my list of priorities to come up with a robust solution that no-one will complain about.

I was only ever talking about the apparent oddness of the above TVR situation and the Lexus, where moderation was taken on the basis of the two being duplicates; and two other examples, where moderation wasn't.

Or rather hasn't been... yet.

Again, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm not saying you're failing to live up to some standard. I'm aware that just because you're usually the only one moderating that subforum doesn't mean you know anything and everything that goes on it.


I'm asking a question for the purposes of rule clarification.

I don't really know what needs clarifying.

That forum was a catastrophic mess thanks to people eagerly submitting anything they could think of in any format with scant regard for the original rules or the ease of use either for other members to search or for the people who'll be adding cars to the game to look through.

After looking over the pile of threads therein, I came up with a slightly more rigid framework for thread titles and set to work cleaning it up.

Slowly, over time, the thread titles are being cleaned up - I think about 65 pages of the 170-odd total have now been tidied - and the existence of overtly duplicated vehicles are being removed, but there are a lot of them and they are being worked through alphabetically. However, in order to promote new threads being created properly, if an obviously duplicated, rubbish or badly-titled thread floats to the top of the most recently replied, it will be amended or attended as a priority.

Once all of the thread titles and obvious duplicates have been corrected, merged or removed, subtler ones will be attended to. I'm sure there are many instances from Ford right through to Zytek where someone has suggested the same car but in a different colour and the thread has not yet been moderated. They will be - but it's not a priority.

 

[TDZdave]

@Famine, whilst we are on the subject of "issues" with the car suggestions forum, is it possible to get a "sort to manufactures alphabetical order"? Its extremely strenuous going through each page to see what may or may not be already suggested,

 

[Northstar]

@Famine, whilst we are on the subject of "issues" with the car suggestions forum, is it possible to get a "sort to manufactures alphabetical order"? Its extremely strenuous going through each page to see what may or may not be already suggested,

Like this?

If so, just click where it says "title".

 

[tankuroded]

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. PD themselves released information about how they recreated that Isuzu concept car when it burned to the ground decades ago. The process they used (at least in broad strokes) was detailed on the GT website for several years. It might still be there, but after the GT6 site revamp I don't really know. Perhaps the circumstances don't lend themselves to recreation for a TVR one-off like it did for an Isuzu one-off, but if you don't know if they can do it what is the grounds for saying that everyone would functionally be getting the new car so a thread heavily implied to be solely about the old car and a thread explicitly detailed to be solely about the new car aren't necessary?

This?

Regarding the TVR issue, the problem was that W112 BHG was it was (legally) registered in June 2000 so even if it is assembled(?) and sold in 2003, it is still a 2000 car:

A W-prefix plate is 2000 and it's pretty well known that W112BHG was first registered on 20th June 2000...

It may well have been rebuilt, but it's a 2000 chassis with a 2000 plate on it.

 

[Harsk100]

I have an question: Do hatchback 3 doors, hatchback 5 doors need an sepparate page for them? Or can they stay in one thread?

 

[Barra333]

Maybe the more important question is whether every trim of every car ever made needs to be suggested/requested.

 

[tankuroded]

I have an question: Do hatchback 3 doors, hatchback 5 doors need an sepparate page for them? Or can they stay in one thread?

"Separate". Not "sepparate". I guess you're asking that in light of this, right?

 

[Harsk100]

I guess you're asking that in light of this, right?

Yes. 👍

 

[tankuroded]

Six years later...

With the forum now inadvertently becoming an "almost all cars in the world" list, and the fact there's the poorly-disguised wishlist threads (one of which dating from GTS era) on the GT7 forum, it's probably a time to think about the future of the forum, especially after the forum's (visible) activity dropped down after all the "hot" cars have been suggested. (Don't get me started about how the tracks and features forums were overshadowed by the cars section.) True, most of actions there are "search and like" (ostensibly to prevent duplicate suggestions, fair enough...) nowadays, with exception of newly launched/teased stuff - but I feel: (a) everyone already liked the "hot" cars and (b) recent suggestions doesn't seem to gain enough likes/reactions by users, either.