Civic vs Integra Who's Better? SRinc. Finds Out & Takes Em Racin'

Discussion in 'GT4 Race Reports' started by SRinc., Aug 30, 2009.

  1. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    Hey guys & girlies, SRinc. here with a open-ended question and im really lookin forward to the feedback and replies. GT has always had a healthy variety of Civics and Teggies, remember the EG 4 door from GT 2 or the Integra GS-R from GT1, i decided to take one Integra and one Civic and put em on a few tracks and see wat the end result would be.

    The race was set for a 98 EK9 (370hp) vs 99 DC2 (388hp). Now your probably thinking the Teggy has the upper hand with 18 more HP, true but the Civic weighs considerably less and also has a later VTEC engagement that kicks in at 6200 RPM on the B16B and around 5200-5300 RPM on the B18C*. What that should mean is a screamin' kick at mid-to-top gears in the EK, while the Tegra uses its a lower RPM the response isnt as "umpf" like in turn it pulls from a lower RPM and keeps goin till the gear tops out. The pros and cons could go either way here.

    With the cars prep'd, oil changed, and car washed (dn't ask why i wash'd em LoL), and final tweaks done with race tires equipped i randomly selected two of the three tracks, Laguna Seca and Mid-Field Race Way. Now the third took a while to come up with but i landed on and ended up going to Tokyo R246 for the first race. Each session 3 laps with the best time recorded, the ITR was up first...

    First Session DC2 (388hp) @ Tokyo R246
    L1: 1'54.244
    L2: 1'53.852*
    L3: 1'54.234
    First Session EK9 (370hp) @ Tokyo R246
    L1: 1'53.698
    L2: 1'52.384*(**)
    L3: 1'52.812

    Second Session EK9 (370hp) @ Laguna Seca
    L1: 1'40.995
    L2: 1'38.463*
    L3: 1'38.791
    Second Session DC2 (388hp) @ Laguna Seca
    L1: 1'38.289*(**)
    L2: 1'38.298
    L3: 1'39.653

    Third Session DC2 (388hp) @ Mid-Field Raceway
    L1: 1'22.040
    L2: 1'20.438
    L3: 1'20.327*(**)
    Third Session EK9 (370hp) @ Mid-Field Raceway
    L1: 1'21.866
    L2: 1'23.359
    L3: 1'21.600*

    Conclusion, the ITR takes fastest lap on 2/3 IDK what happened on Tokyo R246 the Civic handle alot better there. On Laguna Seca, i thought it would've went either way, but the Integra put up a faster time and handled better in California then it did back home on Rte. 246. Mid-Field Raceway was next and on the first lap with the ITR i knew it was taking the cake here but the Civic Type-R didnt show up with out a fight, minus a mis-shift on lap 2 it was shaping up to be good battle. Also i should mention the two Hondas do have a feel of their own. The Teg feels more torquey and snug out of corners while the CTR is more revvy and bouncy in and out of turns, drove like a Honda on cut springs if you kno that feeling. So it made for a balanced race in the end. No real winners here just a test, pin your CTR vs your ITR and see which comes out on top, will it be your B18C Integra Type R or your Civic Type R's B16B...


    * VTEC engagement based solely on STOCK JDM B16B and B18C engines.
     
  2. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    EK9 vs DC2R I'll personally always take the DC2.

    It's easier for me to bend it to my will via settings whereas the CTR just wants to understeer, it looks better and is just nicer. But is still rather trash.

    EP3 vs DC5 is a very good comparison and the limits of both cars are much higher than the EK and DC2, although I must note the RSX Type S is the better handling of the two DC5s when tuned.
     
  3. DK

    DK Premium

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    I'd take the Integra - and give it a F20C conversion.
     
  4. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    Thnx for stoppin in...

    Hey thanks for checking in, good points great minds think alike I hear. The CTR does tend to oversteer while the ITR is so nimble when tuned to ones liking. I gotta take you up on the DC5 vs the EP3 to K20's going head to head sounds AMAZING! I'll get that test up and going real soon. SRinc. next is Mine's Skyline GT-R vs my tuned SRinc. R34 GT-R V-Spec II Nur @ Laguna Seca and both the 0-400m and 0-1000m, stay tuned and happy tuning!

    I must admit the Integra did out perform the Civic in just the little particular ways, like the understerring main complaint and if you drive and EK9 you'll see it instantly upon entry of your first corner. Now an F20C would be kick ass in a DC2 chassis and its been done and the results are stunning. Try YouTube footage its nothing being there live but you'll see some good examples. As always happy tuning!
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  5. Parnelli Bone

    Parnelli Bone Premium

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    ^^^Don't "triple post". Use the Edit button to add text later on instead. :idea: If someone (like me) comes along and replies, then it's okay if you make a new post. It's just how things are done here.



    Interesting comparison, although the Civic is much lighter. There isn't enough of a power to weight difference that's gonna give the Integra an upper hand, one would think, especially with longer straights to plunder. :idea: The fact that the Integra did better at Laguna Seca doesn't surprise me tho, since it's got better traction, and traction is necessary since there's more accelerative runs at Laguna.

    Integras aren't as "pocket rockety" as Civics, they can put more power down more efficiently. :idea: Especially with the kind of power being used in this comparion.

    What other services & parts did you use, by the way? What kind of suspension? Transmssion? etc...or was that stuff all stock?
     
  6. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    Hey thnx for stopping in and for the "Edit" tip. You've got many strong points, all that i can relate to. The DC2 has the power and it puts its down, the traction in cornering is fantastic. In the lower RPM you still feel that pull from the torquey B18C aisde from what "simulated' VTEC the guys over at Sony and PolyPhony manage to work into the game.The Civic isnt necessarily the weaker performer, but it lacked the performance needed in key assets of driving and racing. To answer on the set-up, im not quite ready to reveal any tuning set-ups just yet, im in a "prototype" stage with my cars where im constantly looking for that quarter-second of a second difference on the track. I can say tho no, nothing is stock. Every and anything that can be tweaked gets tuned from Weight Bal., Drive Aids, LSD, suspension, trannies, VCD's, etc. I tune every car seeking both track-day performance and comfort in driveability, the same concepts instilled in Spoon Sports. Again thanks and happy tuning!
     
  7. Rotary Junkie

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    A few things you *might* want to take into consideration here...

    A lot of tuners here at GTP build cars to run on S3 tires as they're the stickiest tire that is theoretically street legal; I find it somewhat more realistic as well seeing as most R-grade tires have nearly impossible levels of grip. Also, when you go for a turbo kit over NA tuning, realize that GT4 always makes the high-end turbo kits have an extreme preference towards top-end power and on a car like a VTEC Honda it results in you wasting a very large amount of power because of the torque curve, which makes it very, very possible that your car will be faster on the road naturally aspirated.

    Also, I have a '95 DC2R sitting in the garage on S3 tires with no driving aids... Would you like to build one to the same rules (S3 tires only, no driving aids, no nitrous, all else goes) and then compare notes?
     
  8. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    Yea sure thing. Which course? And thanks for the tires tip, i always wanted to try stickier tires but havent as so far used them yet other than on front tires on FR cars.
     
  9. Rotary Junkie

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    S3 tires are one step above what comes with everything; they're labeled as Sports Soft. ;)

    Course... Hmm... How about Deep Forest forward and New York reverse as well as 400m, 1000m and top speed?
     
  10. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    NY reverse im not big on how about Grand Valley Speedway instead. I gotta get this Integra built im so ready.
     
  11. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    And GVS is one of my downfalls... Car will work there but I'm a crap driver there...

    Ah well, why not?

    Edit: My setup is about where I want it to be, just a little trimming and I'm finished :p
     
  12. Parnelli Bone

    Parnelli Bone Premium

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    Okay, so you don't wanna reveal how you tune your cars, that's fair enough. But are both cars at least tuned to the same specs?
     
  13. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    Cool cool, I gotta actually build one, I decided to go with yellow in color for my DC2 and the two yellows I have are tuned already, so I'm seerching for a stock yellow ITR I'm on day 2078, hopefully one shows up.

    As far as suspension, there almost identical with differences only in spring rate and ride height. The LSD are tuned the same way. The tranny is about as close to identical as i could get. i literally counted every tick or click from one tranny's gear ratio and applied that many "clicks" to the next. The auto drive are the same as well, and alot of "clicks" counted later led to the Final gear being nearly similiar. I did this with my Spoon cars [ITR, CTR] back in 2006 they topped out both at 218, 221 mph with draft it was amazing to see the two side by side at the same speed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2009
  14. Picc84

    Picc84

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    Well I clicked because I actually own a DC4, but after the read, im surprised the EK9 didn't win.

    In actuality, the EK9 is not fair with the JDM DC2 ITR. IRL, The EK9 should run w/ the DC2 GSR, and the ITR should run with a Civic TypeR, which is available in game. test the civic typeR and the ITR, just my 2 pennys
     
  15. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    Ehmm...

    He tested the EK CTR. >_>
     
  16. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    Yea dude, love the feedback but the whole test was a B16B Civic Type-R vs a B18C ITR. Believe it or not the race is far more fair than you'd think. See the B16B the motor in the Civic Type-R i tested also known as an EK9, that B16B and all CTR's uses the same exact block from the ITR's B18C. Now if you could see a Si's B16A and the ITR's B18C blocks side by side you be able to see a taller or bigger block on the ITR. How Honda managed to get the rod's to work in the B16B with the ITR's block is beyond me. But if you ever see specs on a Si vs a Type-R B16 the rod/stroke ratio comes stock higher on the EK9 than the EM1, the Si. Honda did something right on the B series motors in my opinion, happy tuning!

    Finally got the ITR tuned. Couldn't find yellow and went with a white one with gold BBS's. Also dropped the sticky soft tires on it and LOVED it. The drive feels almost like my DA9 parked out front. I liked the sticky tires so much that i took my tested and failed R34 Nur GT-R and put Soft tires on it and the handles and comfort went sky rocket. Im ready for another round with Mine's. But the Teggy is getting test runs in now and its on like Donkey Kong, happy tuning!
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2009
  17. Parnelli Bone

    Parnelli Bone Premium

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    Stop double-posting. Use the EDIT button. I'm being nice...the mods might not be. Just a warning. :nervous:
     
  18. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    alright im test running an EVO VIII MR GSR*, after that im taking the Teg to Deep Forest and the Test track. I ran Grand Valley East already and the numbers are in hand.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  19. Smallhorses

    Smallhorses Staff Emeritus

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    Yeah, as Parnelli says: Stop double posting. Seriously. :tdown:
    I merged your first triple post and left you a warning message.
    You can't deny knowing about the edit button as it had been used on the first of your 3 posts that I stuck together, and your post directly above this, ~3 hours before this message is posted. ;)

    Secondly here's instructions on how to use the Multiquote function:

    Next to the "Quote" button at the bottom of each post is a button which looks like 2 overlapping speech-bubbles. This is the multiquote button.
    For each of the posts you wish to quote, click on this button, and a small white + sign will appear in a green circle within the icon.
    On the last post you wish to quote, click the "Quote" button as normal, and now when your reply box opens there'll be all the quotes from each of the posts you clicked on, in one post. There's convenient spacing between each quoted part so you can respond to each one in turn.


    I'm merging your double posts in here one last time, but it won't happen again since you've now been warned about it and instructed how to make sure you don't do it again.

    Also moving this to the Race Reports forum as it's more appropriate for car comparison threads and is less likely to spawn a thousands of copycat threads.
    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  20. DK

    DK Premium

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    It should be 170hp for the Civic EK9 and 188hp for the Integra DC2.
     
  21. Rotary Junkie

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    No it shouldn't.

    Also... Are you using Racing Soft or Sports Soft tires? You *should* be using Sports Soft which are actually far less sticky than the tires you put on the Skylines. ;)
     
  22. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    yea the Nur R34 has Racing Super-Softs and the Teg Sports Soft tires, theres a big diff to me personally in can behavior on soft tires in* general because i never used them in all of the GT's and i've been playing GT since '99 when i was 12. always went with hard tires for the endurance. but the feel is great and im converting to softs from now on i think. There also great on my EVO VIII MR GSR it ran 9.1's at Vegas with Super Softs.

    if it were 170 hp for the CTR and 188 for the ITR, that would be a stock head-to-head bout. im not saying its not worth doing but im far from intrested in what a bone stock CTR can do vs a bone stock ITR. The test was between two SRinc. Hondas, different chassis with almost the same tuning detail. in the end it came out equal on some ends and not so much on the other. it wasnt a blow out by the DC2, read over the post again you'll get what im saying.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  23. Rotary Junkie

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    Let me know when your times are done ;)

    Edit: And AGAIN with the double posting... EDIT BUTTON EDIT BUTTON EDIT BUTTON.
     
  24. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    what double post??
     
  25. Rotary Junkie

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    Look above you. A double post is where you post after yourself. And very much frowned upon here.
     
  26. Austin343

    Austin343

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    You must not know what our definition of double post is. You probably think of it as the same post twice in a row (which happens sometimes if you accidentally hit the Reply button twice), but we consider it to be two posts made by the same member within a few minutes of each other. Make one long post with everything you want to say, and divide it into intelligible parts by making spaced paragraphs rather than using a separate post for each thought. :)
     
  27. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    alrite definition understood.

    numbers are being charted now on the ITR...

    The numbers are in. The way i got the lap times at Deep Forest Raceway and Grand Valley East, was by doin 7 laps on practice and collecting the top 3 lap times then eliminating the other 2 leaving me with the best lap and a lot of numbers scribbled on notebook paper. I ran the 0-400m at Vegas ofcourse and Test Course for top speed and 0-1000m. This mildly tuned Integra was a new feel for me but a great platform to begin better tuning for my FF's. This is by far the nicest suspension i've built for a ITR hands down. So heres the results

    SRinc. 1995 Honda Integra Type-R (DC2)
    HP: 386 hp w/ Soft Sports Tires, No NoS.
    WT: 2231 lbs
    TOP SPEED: est. 221-24 mph.*, sits at 194 mph on straights.

    **Grand Valley Speedway East**
    Lap Time: 1'16'660

    **Deep Forest Raceway**
    Lap Time: 1'27'357

    **Vegas 0-400m**
    Lap Time: 0'13'617

    **Test Course 0-1000m**
    Lap Time: 0'22'889
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  28. Rotary Junkie

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    Okay...

    My 310hp 1995 DC2 weighs in at 932kg/2050lbs.

    S3 tires, no aids.
    Top speed: 173.43mph

    **Grand Valley Speedway East**
    Lap Time: 1:12.540

    **Deep Forest Raceway**
    Lap Time: 1:25.912

    **Vegas 0-400m**
    Lap Time: 0:13.958

    **Test Course 0-1000m**
    Lap Time: 0:24.055
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  29. SRinc.

    SRinc.

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    cool man thats awesome. the HP diff is outstanding and yet the two ran the same exact 0-400m at Vegas. Im not surprised i didnt come out on top at Deep Forest i never been great there but i can hold my own there. Grand Valley was a let down, so to see i came up slower there isnt a shock neither it didnt perform as good as it did at Deep Forest which was a shock. i got the 0-1000m by next to nothing too. close run. im workin on my Civic vs Integra pt. 2, next gens EP3 vs DC5 the DC is built im looking for a black EP3 but they're so rare in this career of GT4 im using.
     
  30. Rotary Junkie

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    Oops I forgot to correct the time at Vegas, my bad. It's actually supposed to be 13.958.

    Also, seems we had the opposite issues; my car was great at GVS but not so much at Deep Forest.