Clutch Model

Discussion in 'Kazunori Yamauchi Q&A' started by Chris Lewis, May 21, 2014.

  1. Chris Lewis

    Chris Lewis

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    Do you have plans to make the clutch model on Racing Wheels better? They're just too unrealistic for me. I stopped playing because of it.
     
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  2. Arp 273

    Arp 273

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    Yes, please! The missed shifts are annoying!
     
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  3. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    Dear Kazunori Yamauchi San,

    some people believe that you deliberately ruined the clutch in the GT series because it gave players who used a wheel an advantage over players that used a DS3. Is this true? If so, that was a very bad idea in my opinion! Wouldn't it have been a far better idea to give DS3 players the option to control the clutch from their pads, that way there would be no advantage to wheel users. Then, you could have given online room hosts the option to enable/disable the clutch in their rooms, & you could have chosen to ban it for online time trails too.

    The way you have dealt with it has caused a great amount of upset to those of us who have spent large amounts of money on wheels to play GT with. Think about this; is it fair to release an official GT wheel with a clutch pedal, which is very expensive, & where the player has to then buy an additional shifter (T500 RS), only to find out that the clutch model has been deliberately ruined by the game developer just to cater to DS3 players? What do you think?



    Yours sincerely,

    VBR.
     
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  4. merlinrichards

    merlinrichards

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    Mis'shifts are down to you own doing, they only happen when you release the clutch to early. Same as in real life. I like the clutch an H box in GT5 and GT6 tbh.:sly:



    What would be nice is when you use the T8 as a sequential, no clutch for upshifts but use the clutch for downshifts, just like the aussie V8's. :D

     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  5. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    No, they are not. I don't miss-shift in real life like I do sometimes in GT, & it happens in GT when you power shift as well, not only when you come off the clutch to early. Also, the bite point of the clutch is too far down the pedal travel, so if you don't push it down to almost the bottom you'll get a miss-shift.

    I used to play GT5 Prologue before they changed the clutch. Power shifting was possible, & the bite point of the clutch was about half way down the pedal. There were complaints back then about wheel users having an advantage over DS3 users, shortly after the clutch was nerfed by PD. You do the math.

    You would do well to read this thread. :tup:


    I agree, that would be awesome. :)
     
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  6. merlinrichards

    merlinrichards

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    Practice your timing then mate ;):tup:

    sorry budd im just saying IMO ''I don't mind the clutch''. its fun and easy.

    if anything the T5OO clutch pedal could use a mod or something to give a little pressure half way thro the motion just to get the feeling, pressure 1st half way,, then no pressure.. I think you know what I mean :lol:
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  7. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    In 2009 I went on a track day. I hadn't driven in real life since I passed my driving test, so I thought I'd get some practice on Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (this was after they ruined the clutch). I couldn't even do 1 lap of The Eiger without getting several miss-shifts, I thought I must be a really bad driver & wasn't looking forward to my track day! Then, when I got into the Caterham at my track day, I did 16 laps without any miss-shifts at all.

    I came to the conclusion that the way the clutch is modeled in GT is nothing like reality.
     
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  8. merlinrichards

    merlinrichards

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    ok :@:VBR, you get mis'shifts, I don't. I like the clutch, you don't. :cheers: each to their own :cheers:
     
  9. African Kat

    African Kat

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    clutch ain't realistic
     
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  10. brntguy

    brntguy

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    Worst clutch ever.
     
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  11. Spitty

    Spitty

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    Miss shifts in GT6 happen all the time, well not literally all the time but you get the idea.
    In reality I can release the clutch faster than GT6 and I don't miss shift. This is down to GT6, doesn't happen in AC.
     
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  12. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    It's got nothing at all to do with liking or disliking it. The point is that the clutch is unrealistic, regardless of whether a particular individual likes it or not.
     
  13. Spitty

    Spitty

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    Right, there is no simulated travel, it's just 0 or 1.
     
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  14. gitslautriv

    gitslautriv

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    I think I'll stick to my Driving Force GT if that's the case.
     
  15. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    The clutch works really well once it's disengaged; it comes back in beautifully progressively up the travel, allowing as much slip as you want / can control (without g-forces, it's harder to balance than real life, of course). It's only "digital" in the disengaging, as you push the pedal down - it reaches a threshold and it suddenly disengages. It does also disengage a bit too far down the travel, but that's easy to get used to.


    What is difficult to get used to, however, is the selection mechanism and the built-in checks.

    To get a gear you need to have no throttle applied and the clutch disengaged. If you miss, you need to deselect the gear you just tried to select and then re-select it with the clutch disengaged and no throttle applied; that is surprisingly difficult to do in the heat of battle.

    Since, in a real car, you can tell that the gear didn't go in, because you'd feel it in the selector, I think it's unrealistic to require the player to reselect the gear when they don't get that same "haptic" feedback. Your hand is already off the selector by the time you realise you've missed. There is also discussion about whether wheelspin prevents gears from being selected; drifters in particular are disappointed by that.


    I'd suggest the selection model be changed to constantly poll the gear lever position, and the game to continue to attempt to select the gear indicated by the selector, as long as it's not "selected" in-game. Then, when you miss, all you should need to do is dip the clutch, and it'll go in as long as the selector is where you wanted it to be (and the throttle is off, as applicable).

    Additionally, the strictness of the throttle check on the selection process should be tailored to individual tastes. I.e. add an option for online / competition only that allows the throttle checks, etc. to be turned on or off (GT Academy disallows the use of the clutch by default, for instance).

    To allow for parity, and for the same level of expressive feedback (e.g. sound) from gear changes, the clutch should be opened up to be mappable as a button control, e.g. for DS3 users. I think that would be well received, generally, because the game's sequential controls are a little sterile by comparison, ironically because they're so fast (in order to close the gap to H-pattern users?).


    I was very impressed by the H-pattern selection when it debuted in GT5 Prologue, I thought it quite the step forward for the series, despite how subtle or inconsequential it might seem. I was disappointed when it was modified, although I understand the motivation for fairness - I just think options are a better idea, rather than blanket restrictions.
     
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  16. poumpoum

    poumpoum

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    I really hope they will work on this clutch model but back in september Eurogamer had an interview with Kaz at PD's office...

    Source : http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-20-inside-the-house-of-cars

    Here's an idea about how the clutch should be managed :
    - Each time you switch to a gear it works.
    - If you don't do it right (clutch pedal not enough engaged / gas pedal too much open...) then you ear a bad mecanical noise (so you know that you've been doing something bad) and the game wait for 0.5 second before really engaging the gear as a punishment.

    I don't think it will cost a lot to do a development like this :)
    I also think that the best ideas to manage the clutch should be written in OP.

    Anyway, I'm also really mad because we can't even use the clutch with custom gearbox ! Don't forget to vote here also.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2014
  17. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    8,532
    In respect of the clutch, I'm pretty sure he's just talking about the pedal feel there. It has little to do with how the axis is set up, which isn't even the main issue.

    The real issue is the selection mechanism and its checks; which is where force feedback on the gear-stick comes in. That's where you make concessions and forgo realism in the precise mechanics of selecting gears in favour of realism in the cost of making a mistake.

    I personally think it's the result of the entire drivetrain simulation not really being "geared up" (ha!) for direct / H-pattern selection and manual clutch slippage. They've seemingly had to hi-jack the sequential functions to emulate direct-selection. Again, in my opinion. :)

    Hopefully Kaz will accept a different compromise, one that focuses on individual driver enjoyment, with options to control the impact on other players.


    The fidelity of different gearbox types could use work, also, but that needs extra flexibility in the tuning / upgrades options, too.