Clutch, still an utter joke!

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ApexVGear

ApexVGear

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I drive real cars with manual transmissions and clutches (just spent the past few days "racing" in the seat of a Porsche 944), and I love it when I can drive a simulator with a clutch that works properly--it's part of how I "control" the car.

Here we are, Gran Turismo 6 is out, and I CAN'T BELIEVE that Kazunori Yamauchi and Polyphony Digital released the latest version with the same JOKE, and let me emphasize this, J O K E of a clutch model. I just drove Mount Panorama in the X-Bow (the real car is a manual with a clutch), and every other shift often results in getting "N" and free engine revving, especially when preparing to overtake other cars, and worse, when downshifting to set up for turns in the more technical sections on the backside of the mountain--INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING.

Watch this video of Inside Sim Racing's Shaun and Darin trying to use the clutch--go to 28 minutes and watch what happens when Shaun trys to use the clutch. They give up and go back to using the paddles or the stick without the clutch. It's very sad when experienced sim-racers have to give up and not use it.

Quote from Darin: "Well that tells me I am NOT using the clutch." "You got like 20 mis-shifts in that last run."

Quote from Shaun: "Well that sucks... Hey for the second place in the Fit, using clutch..."



A question to Jordan...

Is there any way you can make this a special GT Planet "article," or effort to get a FIRM answer directly from Kazunori as to why he allows this to exist in Gran Turismo? If he can honestly sit there and respond with "excuses" and out-of-touch logic about why it works the way it does, there's no hope for the Gran Turismo franchise. If this is the case, how can any "serious" sim-racing driver, with real-world experience, continue to support Gran Turismo. I want to drive and race in Gran Turismo--and while doing that, I don't have time to play the "get the magic gear number" sub game.

If you, Jordan, and GT Planet could get Kaz and PD to rectify this MAJOR FLAW with Gran Turismo, you would definitely solidify your position as an integral part of the Gran Turismo community.

Everything else about Gran Turismo 6 is great...

It's just like someone has delivered a brand new Ferrari to me--but they ripped out the stock manual transmission and installed a worn out 7-gear transmission from an old U-Haul truck, where you spend most of the time trying to "find" the gears.

All these great reviews and excitement... I wish I could join in. But this MUST BE FIXED in an update very soon.

[edit]
I added this from a statement further down in the thread...

In summary, there's four problems with the Gran Turismo clutch.

1. Clutch engage point is too low (or is it just my pedals?).

2. The clutch pedal should have more of an "analogue" feel to it, just like a real spring-loaded clutch plate. Other simulators don't replicate this perfectly, but Gran Turismo feels like a hard on off switch, and it can often cause you to loose control, especially during downshifts.

3. One of the "rules" (apparently) is that you must lift off the gas pedal, almost completely, to register a valid shift. This is totally unrealistic, and can cause problems during rev-matching and downshifts were you want to keep the engine revs up to avoid differential drag or lock.

4. The big one--The transmission goes into neutral if you don't follow the "rules" of Gran Turismo (which can be hard to do because of the problems above), rather than grind and delay the power for a brief moment. If the stick is in a slot, Gran Turismo should be in the corresponding gear, NO MATTER WHAT, perfect shift, or mis-shift with a grind and a delay.
 
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It is amazing how bad the clutch still is... I believe it is the same exact transmission/clutch model they used in GT5. The clutch and or transmission SHOULD NOT miss shift because we didn't let off the gas during shifting... but it does. There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to flat foot shift like you can in a real car... It should however miss shift if we dont depress the clutch enough and that's THE ONLY REASON why a transmission should miss shift! Tell me why why why would kaz keep this horrible clutch system in the game!
 
Well I was disappointed they hadn't fixed the clutch, which seemed to be on or off, but I've just fired this up with my wheel for the first time and didn't have a problem like GT5 with missed gears, in fact I have just driven around Brands Hatch in a Ford Focus sti, manual gears, H shifter and clutch and I didn't miss a single gear change. I presume the Video above is pre patch, there has been several already since buying it yesterday.
 
Aye, I've noticed this, too.
The way GT5 interpreted the clutch mechanics of a car was, by far, my biggest problem with the game. Although I have yet to try to play GT6 with a wheel, hearing about its unwanted return is very disappointing. I take part in a lot of racing in my life, from gnarly race builds to road racing track machines, and I have never encountered any mis-shifting problems such as those represented in GT. Don't quote me on this, but if I recall correctly, the inability to flat shift is due to some moral view PD has towards equality, because they want the shifting mechanics to remain identical, regardless if you're using an H-Pattern or Paddles.
 
Noticed as well and i'd also like to get answer if this is going to be fixed. I really can't play the game properly.

If Kaz has actually NEVER driven a manual gearbox car and ACTUALLY thinks that's how it works - please show him some driving lessons on youtube, where they say that car REALLY CAN shift gears with gas pedal pressed.

I keep watching every shift and get missshifted twenty times per minute, which makes me angry as hell. To make it even worse, when you missshift, you can't shift for another 2-3 tries, it just doesn't work. There is no way to explain how bad that part of the game it is. "The real driving simulator" sounds like trolling the player at this point.
 
Cough cough push the clutch in more ..... other then that the model is so buns its basically do or die model not rough shifts model but i could only imagine them trying to make a complex clutch model with stalls and bucks and engages just imagine that
 
The clutch is terrible because the game also decides if your shift will go in based on the shift speed, so if you shift too fast it will go into N. Especially annoying from 1st to 2nd as the game always does a slow shift from 1st to 2nd, so if you shift normal you will go into N every single time.

The clutch is broken and it needs to be fixed, it's a joke to call it the real driving simulator and it doesn't have a proper working clutch, when every other game out there has it. Rfactor 2. Project Cars, SimRaceway and Assetto Corsa in particular have fully working analogue clutches, with proper slip too, they work flawlessly.

PD really need to fix this, it has become a joke now.
 
This is one reason i dont use the clutch but still use manual. Clutch kicking for drifting is useful too bit just stays in N most times.

Only positive with most race and rally cars is that there sequential so clutch automatic. But road cars need that feel.
 
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ApexVGear
. . . and I love it when I can drive a simulator with a clutch that works properly . . .
Click to expand...


a simulator with a clutch that works properly? Sure it exists, just like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.
What pedals are you using that "works properly?"
 
CC570
a simulator with a clutch that works properly? Sure it exists, just like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.
What pedals are you using that "works properly?"
Click to expand...

I have used both a Logitech G27 and now a Fanatec setup (photo below of current setup) and there is no difference.

Okay, the "perfect" clutch model would be an analogue clutch that has a different setup for each type of car, with different "slip and grab" depending on the type of car, and even the type of clutch installed in it... However, THAT would be expecting way to much of game and sim developers.

I have spent an equal amount of time in Forza 4 (level 314) and GraN-N-N-N-N Turismo 5 (100% complete, 1,020 cars in my garage). The clutch model in Forza 4 is probably one of the most perfect clutch models you will find in a simulator. If you get a mis-shift, it's because YOU screwed up, not because of an extremely flawed clutch model, such as the one in GT5 Prologue, GT5, and GT6.

In addition, if you do screw up in Forza 4, it results in damage to the transmission--credits are deducted from your winnings at the end of the race to repair it. The most SIGNIFICANT thing of all is that if the stick is moved into a slot on your real shifter peripheral, you will be in a gear in Forza 4. If you do it without properly disengaging and engaging the clutch, you will get a grind, there's a lag in the shift, and you've sustained some damage.

In GT5 Prologue, GT5, and now GT6, it is UTTERLY ridiculous that you can make what should be a successful shift and you get "N" and "R-N-N-N-N-N." Then you have to work the clutch pedal and shift stick again to get the gear, and sometimes you have to try several times.

GT6 doesn't have the damage system that FM4 has, but at the very least, when you mis-shift, there should be a loud grinding noise, a sharp rumble or kick in the force feedack, and a delay in the shift engaging (costing you often valuable time and momentum). Regardless, no matter what, if the physical shifter peripheral stick is in a gear "slot" then Gran Turismo should be in that gear. NEVER "N."

However, it's not just the "N" problem. The clutch operation in Gran Turismo is a simple "On Off" point at the LOWER FOURTH of the pedal travel. This is not realistic at all. My REAL Mazda (Mazdaspeed Protogé) and the Porshe 944 I drove all last week engage and grab at the upper fourth to third of the pedal travel, and this is the case in most REAL cars, especially those set up for sport or serious racing.

If you're serious about simulation racing and want to use the clutch, those two problems combined, and the apprehension it causes you to feel when you prepare to make a shift, completely ruin the "experience" of Gran Turismo. Three versions of GT now that offer this feature (and you purchase at least a $400 wheel for this) and it just doesn't work any where near the way it should--when so many other simulators have got it right (or as close as should be expected).

Seriously, what's Kazunori's and Polyphony Digital's excuse for this? Would it be that hard to make the necessary changes in Gran Turismo 6 to rectify this problem? Is there still some out-of-touch logic that the current clutch model is necessary to balance the game for controller vs wheel users?

I bought the wheel with a shifter and clutch because I expected Gran Turismo to live up to it's name of being "The Real Driving Simulator." GT5 Prologue and GT5 came out, I "lived" with it--it always felt weird to "adapt" to the clunky unrealistic procedure that was totally unlike any real world car I have driven. When Forza 4 was released, I FINALLY had the clutch and full experience I had been waiting for when I switched to a Fanatec setup. After that, I'd return to GT5 for a seasonal event, try to use the clutch, and was reminded of how horrible it was. Then I rarely came back.

VStandElite03-131210.jpg
 
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ApexVGear
...if you do screw up in Forza 4, it results in damage to the transmission--credits are deducted from your winnings at the end of the race to repair it. The most SIGNIFICANT thing of all is that if the stick is moved into a slot on your real shifter peripheral, you will be in a gear in Forza 4. If you do it without properly disengaging and engaging the clutch, you will get a grind, there's a lag in the shift, and you've sustained some damage.

In GT5 Prologue, GT5, and now GT6, it is UTTERLY ridiculous that you can make what should be a successful shift and you get "N" and "R-N-N-N-N-N." Then you have to work the clutch pedal and shift stick again to get the gear, and sometimes you have to try several times.
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I couldn't agree more, I'm with you 100% on this. I've only played Forza 4 once & didn't use the clutch, but the way you describe it working is what we should have in GT6. If you miss shift, you get a grinding noise & then you end up in gear. I have a G25 & only use the clutch when I'm driving for fun, never when racing because of the miss shifts. That said, I don't get many cos I'm so used to it, but when they do happen they're very annoying.

Think about this: PD work with Thrustmaster to produce a high end wheel for sim-racers which has a clutch (£400-ish on Amazon). It also has a gear shifter that has to be bought separately & is quite expensive (£114 on Amazon). PD know that their customers are paying for this wheel & gear shifter to play GT games with, not to mention buying/building a rig for it, & even purchasing a PS3 if they're not already a gamer. So I find it incredibly disrespectful that they don't listen to all the complaints about it & spend a little time fixing the clutch simulation for all their customers who have invested in their expensive hardware! It's these kinds of reasons that make many people feel ambivalent towards Gran Turismo.
 
Well, let's be honest, FM4 is a whole lot better game then GT5/6. Better physics, better car selection, better graphics and especially sound, auction, storefronts, selling tunes, liveries... I can go on forever. It's just already old and boring, we need new games to have fun.

Since FM5 is screwed all the way around (new console, new wheel, no cars/tracks/clubs/drag/storefront etc), only choice right now in GT6. And till Project CARS is released in autumn 2014 we're gonna play GT5/6 or FM4 or switch to PC gaming.

We must reach PD or Kaz directly and make them answer this call. Maybe sign a massive petition on some website?
 
If people are getting 20 mis shifts a race like ISR are claiming. Why aren't they adapting how they drive it? I have mis shifted like 3 times in GT6 using manual cars.

Tip, make sure you are actually in gear before releasing the clutch.
 
MildAshers
If people are getting 20 mis shifts a race like ISR are claiming. Why aren't they adapting how they drive it? I have mis shifted like 3 times in GT6 using manual cars.
Click to expand...

So I've driven over a 100 different REAL cars with clutch. Even a couple of trucks, including a mid-size transport truck. In almost every case, the disengage/engage point was near the upper end of the pedal travel.

The ONLY car that had a clutch that was similar to the one in Gran Turismo was one that had a failing master cylinder. It happened to me recently, and it completely failed (had to "pump" it to get the clutch to operate) within 45 minutes. Before the failure, the engage point was where it was supposed to be, but started to get lower and lower to the floor as the diaphragm in the cylinder could no longer compress the fluid.

It felt weird, and it made me feel extremely uneasy. Once the "engage" point was nearly at the floor, I thought, wow, it's just like GT5! ...and now GT6!

Gran Turismo claims to be a simulator. It is supposed to simulate driving a real, properly operating car. Instead, it simulates a car with a FAILING clutch. Therefore, GT 5 Prologue, GT5, and GT6... they're all broken. Apparently Gran Turismo simulates cars with worn out clutches... okay, I'll pay $60+ for that again and again. I'll get all excited about everything else, that makes sense. I'll keep supporting Gran Turismo, sure!

Couple the pedal travel problem with the whole "N" problem, and it makes it even "more broken."

So if you picked up your new car, and the clutch pedal engage point was nearly at the floor, I'd guess you'd say, "Oh, that's okay. I'll adapt." If every time you moved the stick a little too early, before you could get the pedal down to the floor, and even though the stick was in a "slot" but you get nothing but free engine revs, or transmission deceleration when you downshift into a turn, I guess you'd be perfectly satisfied with that. I'm sure you'd be perfectly happy with adapting to all of that and not return the car.

MildAshers
Tip, make sure you are actually in gear before releasing the clutch.
Click to expand...

Just the fact that you have to give your "tip" to an experienced driver who has actually raced, like myself or Shaun at SRT, clearly indicates that there is a major problem with the Gran Turismo clutch. It's like telling someone to be sure to enhale a different way to avoid asphyxiation.
 
VBR
Think about this: PD work with Thrustmaster to produce a high end wheel for sim-racers which has a clutch (£400-ish on Amazon). It also has a gear shifter that has to be bought separately & is quite expensive (£114 on Amazon). PD know that their customers are paying for this wheel & gear shifter to play GT games with, not to mention buying/building a rig for it, & even purchasing a PS3 if they're not already a gamer. So I find it incredibly disrespectful that they don't listen to all the complaints about it & spend a little time fixing the clutch simulation for all their customers who have invested in their expensive hardware! It's these kinds of reasons that make many people feel ambivalent towards Gran Turismo.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with this.

Though I haven't read this account personally, I've often read posts referencing an interview with Kazunori where they asked him about it, and he said it works that way because they didn't want drivers with a shifter and clutch to have an advantage over drivers using a controller...

So let me get this straight... I spend $400+ on a wheel setup, even more on a stand or rig for it, and then I have to struggle with getting an unrealistic clutch to operate properly because someone with a $40-60 controller takes higher priority. Seriously?!! Doesn't seem to be a problem in Forza and other simulators (you can use controllers in many PC sims).

When I read the accounts of this statement, I got the feeling that it was more of a smoke screen. Kazunori and Polyphony Digital have gotten around to getting another version of Gran Turismo out, they'll do a little more here and there to keep the interest up... and then Kaz can get back to being the "Gran Turismo celebrity" and go to high-brow motoring events, and race at LeMans and other races, and put on conferences and galas to celebrate the "concept" of Gran Turismo.

GT5 required six years to "develop" and was not even "finished" when it was delivered. The claim of over 1,000 cars (and now 1,200 cars in GT6) that are mostly all duplicates (same car, different region) and 3D models and texture maps pulled from the previous gen system. Statements about things to be delivered as DLC that never materialized...

The clutch, incomplete work, reused models and graphics... the "been there done that" feeling that I am getting in GT6...

Kazunori Yamauchi, what happened to your real passion for Gran Turismo?

Will PS4 save Gran Turismo? Will it bring you (Kazunori) back and get you to sit down and return Gran Turismo to the front of the "starting grid" of the simulator market race?

Forza 5 will get better (even though I was shafted by Microsoft and Turn 10 as a Fanatec owner).

Project CARS is revving it's engines and is probably going to change what to expect from a simulator.

Assetto Corsa is generating a lot of excitement...

Kazunori, Polyphony Digital... it's time to get serious.

Fix the clutch in GT6, hire some additional people to finish it out and deliver DLC for GT6, then take your core "family" of programmers and designers and focus on GT7 and deliver something that may keep me from totally leaving Gran Turismo for one of those other titles.
 
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ApexVGear
So I've driven over a 100 different REAL cars with clutch. Even a couple of trucks, including a mid-size transport truck. In almost every case, the disengage/engage point was near the upper end of the pedal travel.

The ONLY car that had a clutch that was similar to the one in Gran Turismo was one that had a failing master cylinder. It happened to me recently, and it completely failed (had to "pump" it to get the clutch to operate) within 45 minutes. Before the failure, the engage point was where it was supposed to be, but started to get lower and lower to the floor as the diaphragm in the cylinder could no longer compress the fluid.

It felt weird, and it made me feel extremely uneasy. Once the "engage" point was nearly at the floor, I thought, wow, it's just like GT5! ...and now GT6!

Gran Turismo claims to be a simulator. It is supposed to simulate driving a real, properly operating car. Instead, it simulates a car with a FAILING clutch. Therefore, GT 5 Prologue, GT5, and GT6... they're all broken. Apparently Gran Turismo simulates cars with worn out clutches... okay, I'll pay $60+ for that again and again. I'll get all excited about everything else, that makes sense. I'll keep supporting Gran Turismo, sure!

Couple the pedal travel problem with the whole "N" problem, and it makes it even "more broken."

So if you picked up your new car, and the clutch pedal engage point was nearly at the floor, I'd guess you'd say, "Oh, that's okay. I'll adapt." If every time you moved the stick a little too early, before you could get the pedal down to the floor, and even though the stick was in a "slot" but you get nothing but free engine revs, or transmission deceleration when you downshift into a turn, I guess you'd be perfectly satisfied with that. I'm sure you'd be perfectly happy with adapting to all of that and not return the car.



Just the fact that you have to give your "tip" to an experienced driver who has actually raced, like myself or Shaun at SRT, clearly indicates that there is a major problem with the Gran Turismo clutch. It's like telling someone to be sure to enhale a different way to avoid asphyxiation.
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I am literally so happy that you have driven 100 cars in real life.

Point 1: I never claimed GT's clutch was right or accurate.
Point 2: My "tip" is merely a suggestion to avoid mis shifting in GT6. It puzzles me that eh can mis shift 20 times in one run without thinking, hmm, I'll just leave the clutch in longer while I shift.
Point 3: No game/sim will ever get clutch control right. Until technology can happen where you can feel the bite point no clutch will ever be right and every game will use what they feel is the most appropriate way.

Next time you decide to attack my point, please ensure you understand my post first.
 
This is a big and frustrating problem!

It is not right, no one can say anything against that. You just can't use the clutch like in real life.

If you try games like Live For Speed, you'll know how bad it is in GT6. Or you could just try with a real car.


Do Kaz even play this game? How can he live with this fault? Does someone need to introduce him to PC-simulators?
 
MildAshers
I am literally so happy that you have driven 100 cars in real life.

Point 1: I never claimed GT's clutch was right or accurate.
Point 2: My "tip" is merely a suggestion to avoid mis shifting in GT6. It puzzles me that eh can mis shift 20 times in one run without thinking, hmm, I'll just leave the clutch in longer while I shift.
Point 3: No game/sim will ever get clutch control right. Until technology can happen where you can feel the bite point no clutch will ever be right and every game will use what they feel is the most appropriate way.

Next time you decide to attack my point, please ensure you understand my post first.
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Whatever anyone says, it is not about misshifting. If the throttle is pushed down just a little bit it won't make a difference as you are releasing the clutch.

You can learn to shift in GT-games without getting N, but you will loose some time.
 
2 things stopped me buying gt6. The sounds and the clutch. Everything else you can work around but there is no way around these 2 issues.
 
Although I would love to have some consequences appear during mis-shifts and such, the fact that vehicle damage everywhere else is rather mediocre makes me care less about that one, specific aspect of "damage control." What really bothers me is having the whole "Ooops, I neutral'ed again" moments recurring during track time. Now, I'm not the most experienced driver in the world, but as someone who races in North America on a National level (SCCA), I've had plently of time behind the wheel both ON and OFF the racetrack.

There are only two things I can think of that really bothers me in GT5/GT6

1. FF Cars and their awful handling. (No Lift-Off Oversteer? Come on!)
2. The clutch/transmission simulation

As other's have mentioned, being able to tackle a corner at full speed, putting your diff at work and suddenly downshifting without properly syncing your drivetrain will result in some sudden changes in traction in your RWD vehicle. This, among with the proper clutch simulation, is ALSO absent from GT6. Maybe PD forgot to focus on the drive-train as a synchronized entity, rather than fixed and independent functions. Hopefully, this is something they can add to their list of "Oh yeah, we'll fix that on an update sometime later before the Sun explodes."
 
Yeah I find this to be a huge annoyance. With some of fast revving, high horsepower cars... there is absolutely no way to get a good 1 to 2 shift. Once you hit the rev limiter you're done.
 
Triple plate clutch upgrade allows you to shift faster. Most of my mis-shifts weren't due to improper clutch depression or not letting off the gas, it's due to doing the whole thing too fast (especially 1st>2nd).

I've gotten into the habit of holding the clutch an extra few tenths of a second for 1st gear, or whenever my wheels are spinning. I routinely go 4-5 laps without a single missed shift.

That said, it could be improved. It's unnecessarily unforgiving, and that's kind of strange considering the rest of the game is built around being easy enough for 5-year olds. The lead car slows down to let you pass so you can win, but someone who drives stick in real life is hard pressed to get through 6-speeds without missing one.
 
I don't think the clutch is as bad as some claim. It only misses for me if I try to go too fast. Its the same condition in my real car. If I shifted as fast in my car as the lightweight plastic parts allow on the G27, it would certainly miss and grind. If everyone simply exercised realistic shifting speed and practices, you would see that it actually is a good clutch model.
 
lmracer
I don't think the clutch is as bad as some claim. It only misses for me if I try to go too fast. Its the same condition in my real car. If I shifted as fast in my car as the lightweight plastic parts allow on the G27, it would certainly miss and grind. If everyone simply exercised realistic shifting speed and practices, you would see that it actually is a good clutch model.
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Forcing you into neutral when you mess up isn't good. It's annoying and unnecessary and that's what I hate about it.

Other games do it better, like Forza Horizon. Just like GT6, that game doesn't have mechanical damage but it still has a better clutch model. If you don't shift properly in Horizon, the car briefly stalls then keeps going. That's how it should be in GT6. The game punishes you too much for not being 100% precise.
 
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