Concerns about post merging, deletions, and editing in the AC PC Mods General Discussion thread

[Masscot]

Copied verbatim from the Assetto Corsa PC Mods General Discussion thread following deletion.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ral-discussion.307899/page-2223#post-13348754

Merging a double post does not affect user notifications, or the ability of those users to read and respond to a post.

Whatever your reason was, it wasn't a valid reason for making a double post.

@daan, on this very topic that you mention here, can we please get some public clarification about a few things? I think it would be very helpful going forward and possibly stop a few peed-off members from leaving the forum.
It used to be the case (I think it was actually you that confirmed it at some point?) that double posting was OK if the posts covered different subjects and were made with a suitable delay between them, so that other users are aware that a new post has been made. That no longer seems to be happening, so not only are new posts getting merged with old ones (and therefore new content can be easily missed by other users) but the actual context of those posts is also being corrupted, leading to misunderstandings or the wrong user thinking the post is replying to them.
More seriously, there have also been many instances of posts being deleted covertly and anonymously with no note from a moderator explaining why. I know from personal experience that on-topic posts that have not violated any ToS have been deleted for no apparent reason, and I know from private dialogue that others have experienced the same issue. If you expect users to follow terms of service then I think it would be useful to know when those ToS have been violated. We used to receive a clear PM from an identified moderator when breaking forum rules explaining what we had done wrong, but this seems to have been replaced by a simple increase to the little red 'alert' number at the top of the screen, the one that's constantly there and simply updates with no fanfare every time a post is liked or quoted. It's so benign and omnipresent it's very easy to miss, hence a recent ban of mine when I was deemed to be ignoring anonymous instructions from an unknown moderator who was sending alerts that I simply did not see.
It's not only quite frustrating when legitimate on-topic posts that you've taken time to write (or a post from another user that you've recently read) suddenly disappears for no apparent reason, especially when photo and video spamming or other off-topic posts are allowed to proliferate in this thread without being deleted or moved to their appropriate forums. The inconsistency simply leads to confusion.
People might start to be reluctant to post at all if they think what they've written might be removed without reason or that its meaning gets diluted by merging or editing.
Thank you.

 

[GzeroD]

'However, double-posting is not forbidden, and can be useful in many cases. For example, if a reasonable amount of time has passed or you have significant information to add to the topic, present it in a new post so that others, including thread subscribers, are made aware of the update.'

 

[Masscot]

'However, double-posting is not forbidden, and can be useful in many cases. For example, if a reasonable amount of time has passed or you have significant information to add to the topic, present it in a new post so that others, including thread subscribers, are made aware of the update.'

That was always my understanding too, but no longer seems to be the case.
To be honest it's the quiet deletion of perfectly innocuous posts that troubles me most. They break the rhythm of the discussion and context is often destroyed. If the posts DO somehow break ToS then it would be useful to at least know why so the 'offenders' can learn from it.
Moderation seems to be extremely heavy-handed, inconsistent and indiscriminate in that thread recently. I'm wondering if a new moderator has recently come on board and is perhaps being a little over-enthusiastic?
I tried linking to this thread a few times so that people who saw my original post could at least follow the discussion, but even those posts were immediately deleted.

 

[Famine]

It used to be the case (I think it was actually you that confirmed it at some point?) that double posting was OK if the posts covered different subjects and were made with a suitable delay between them, so that other users are aware that a new post has been made. That no longer seems to be happening, so not only are new posts getting merged with old ones (and therefore new content can be easily missed by other users) but the actual context of those posts is also being corrupted, leading to misunderstandings or the wrong user thinking the post is replying to them.

It is still the case. A few minutes is not a suitable delay, and no double-posts in that thread with more than half an hour's gap between them have been merged.

Wanting to address different users is not a suitable reason for double-posting either. There is a Multiquote feature which allows you to quote a whole gaggle of posts - and short sections of posts, like I've done here - in one.

One example of acceptable double-posting (so not really double-posting) was in that very thread this morning. Two posts, 33 minutes apart, but the second contained significant information not previously covered in the thread that the user became aware of after his first post.

There's also a relaxation for live news/sports events, such as the F1 race threads. It's unreasonable of us to expect a user to check, go back, and edit a post they've just made when something major happens in the race right after. Commonly they may not even end up double-posting, because these threads move quickly.

More seriously, there have also been many instances of posts being deleted covertly and anonymously with no note from a moderator explaining why.

We used to receive a clear PM from an identified moderator when breaking forum rules explaining what we had done wrong, but this seems to have been replaced by a simple increase to the little red 'alert' number at the top of the screen, the one that's constantly there and simply updates with no fanfare every time a post is liked or quoted. It's so benign and omnipresent it's very easy to miss, hence a recent ban of mine when I was deemed to be ignoring anonymous instructions from an unknown moderator who was sending alerts that I simply did not see.

The first sentence here is rendered moot by the subsequent one. You are describing the Alert system, which sends you information when users quote you, tag you (@Masscot), "Like" a post, respond to threads you have marked for notifications or... when a moderator sends you a notification of post moderation. This is pretty much the fundamental way that the forum lets you know about other users' interactions with it.

The complaint that you think you should have a clear PM instead of a notification is odd. The "Inbox" function updates in exactly the same way that the Alerts function does - with a little (although it's massive on mobile) red number to tell you how many new messages you have. Why pay attention to one but not the other?

In addition, it's simply unreasonable to expect staff to take all that time to send you a PM to explain what happened every time you have a post edited/merged/deleted, especially when there's several people affected and they're continuing to make posts that require attention - if nothing else, the PM might overlap with the user(s) making several more posts unnecessarily due to the time taken. The notification system is in fact built directly into the moderation functions:

Moderators can - and do - tick the box, tell you the reason (and for common problems this can be auto-completed), and send you a direct notification to your Alerts. You were sent these notifications and, for whatever reason, did not act on them. That resulted in a very short and specific ban from posting in that thread, which seems to have drawn your attention to the notifications you were sent. Now you realise that they exist and what their function is, that the moderator was telling you that you were doing something wrong and what it was, and hopefully won't make that mistake again. That would seem to indicate that the moderation action had the intended result.


As for what was going on, it was a small number of posts talking about moderation - which started with you saying "My post has been quietly removed by a moderator. What's going on here?". Moderation is never the topic of any thread, except occasional threads like this one in Site Support. That query should have been directed, in private, to a moderator. Any moderator will do, but perhaps the active ones in that thread like @daan or @Scaff would be a good first port of call.

For the most part, moderation is done in private. It's nobody's business but yours and the staff's whether you've done something errant, how often you do it, and how many warning points you have - or don't. This is why we don't often make public posts about moderator action; a moderator making a post to explain that someone's had a post merged or deleted results in the exact same number of posts, but now moderation is being discussed in the topic instead of the topic.

Discussing moderation is something that should almost always be in private, usually between you and whichever moderator is active at the time (you can find this on the main site page). If you're not happy with that interaction, there is direct instruction in the site FAQ about this.

Inline moderation is rare but it can be useful. Obvious examples from that particular thread are when a member of staff has had to lock it in order to delete a large number of posts - due to user in-fighting, vast arrays of off-topic stuff, or TOS violations - and we have to remind a large number of users of their responsibilities. That, of course, can lead to some users talking about that moderation action, which takes us back to the beginning.

 

[Masscot]

@Famine Thanks for the reply but a lot of posts have been getting deleted without any notifications whatsoever. The posts just disappear. I already conceded that some alerts were sent and missed by me a few days ago (because in the past, PMs have been sent by the moderator) but that is often not the case. I have had posts deleted today with no associated alerts and others have confirmed to me that the same thing has happened to them.

 

[Famine]

@Famine Thanks for the reply but a lot of posts have been getting deleted without any notifications whatsoever. The posts just disappear. I already conceded that some alerts were sent and missed by me a few days ago (because in the past, PMs have been sent by the moderator) but that is often not the case. I have had posts deleted today with no associated alerts and others have confirmed to me that the same thing has happened to them.

Yes, shortly before you posted this thread you made the same post - which is discussing moderation again, the thing you were notified about not doing yesterday - directly in the AC Mods thread.

A moderator deleted it and directly engaged with you in the thread, resulting in you posting it here... which was what they instructed you to do:

@xezez @Masscot Our AUP, along with our TOS and a handy FAQ, is at the bottom of every page.

If you wish to make a general comment about the site, then that goes in the Site Support forum.

Comments, suggestions and complaints do not belong in this thread.

I don't really see what the issue is with this one - not only did the staff notify you, you acted on what they said...

Nobody's blithely deleting posts (and also they can't; posts are simply removed from public view but preserved intact and in their original position) and not telling anyone for a giggle. Moderators are doing their jobs.

 

[Masscot]

Yes, shortly before you posted this thread you made the same post - which is discussing moderation again, the thing you were notified about not doing yesterday - directly in the AC Mods thread.

A moderator deleted it and directly engaged with you in the thread, resulting in you posting it here... which was what they instructed you to do:

I don't really see what the issue is with this one - not only did the staff notify you, you acted on what they said...

Nobody's blithely deleting posts (and also they can't; posts are simply removed from public view but preserved intact and in their original position) and not telling anyone for a giggle. Moderators are doing their jobs.

Posts of mine were deleted a few days ago without alerts, that's how this whole discussion started. I'm not talking about the alert warnings that I missed, it was prior to that. And I'm not talking about posts being deleted in the middle of a flurry of posts being deleted. This just happened out of the blue with no alert, no reason given.

 

[Famine]

Posts of mine were deleted a few days ago without alerts, that's how this whole discussion started.

Is this from when you quoted a post that was subsequently deleted?

If so, the post you quoted was deleted, so that resulted in your post being deleted. The staff would have notified whomever it was that made the original post, but as it wasn't your post that was at fault you wouldn't necessarily have been notified.

 

[ImaRobot]

I don't recall ever getting a PM just for merging/deleting/altered posts by mods. I have gotten a PM for an infraction though, but that and only that. I think the only time I've gotten posts deleted with out notifications is when I participate in a topic that has already since derailed a thread. Not the end of the world there either way

 

[Fanapryde]

I keep wondering what the issue about double posting is ?
Visit the forum after one day and find 3-4-5 or more posts where you have been quoted or given/asked info about different subjects, let alone when for some reason it's been a while since you visited the forum.
Answering all in one post makes it sometimes very difficult for others to read.
I try to avoid double posts myself because of the standing 'rule', but sometimes it would be far more readable for everyone if the different subjects could be kept seperate imo.
I sometimes see posts that have been merged and not in all cases was the result 'better'. Maybe it was for the activating moderator though...
However, it's not a big deal. I understand that moderating this huge forum is a difficult and time consuming task (I was involved in moderating a forum for over 10 years, so I do know).
About the alerts: I received an alert a few days ago that my post had been changed by a moderator. I know it was because I asked what happened to several posts I saw the day before and that did not existed anymore. But afaik that is the first time I received an alert.

 

[Masscot]

Is this from when you quoted a post that was subsequently deleted?

If so, the post you quoted was deleted, so that resulted in your post being deleted. The staff would have notified whomever it was that made the original post, but as it wasn't your post that was at fault you wouldn't necessarily have been notified.

In this case I think it was but there have definitely been instances in the past where posts have just vanished for no overt reason.

About the alerts: I received an alert a few days ago that my post had been changed by a moderator. I know it was because I asked what happened to several posts I saw the day before and that did not existed anymore. But afaik that is the first time I received an alert.

So you've also had posts deleted in the past without obvious reason or notification?

 

[ApexVGear]

On the subject of multiple posts, as myself and others have had unrelated posts merged together with an alert that the edit was made because of multiple posts--this can cause issues. Those that the posts are directed to may not see or find the information, it affects searches or going back to reference a previous post, or it can cause confusion when someone replies to them, and it "clutters" the process and meaning of posts. Combining or merging unrelated posts "fractures" the thread and discussion.

I certainly understand that, if responding to multiple posts on the same subject, it makes perfect sense to combine or merge the responses into one post, and I have done so when it was appropriate. Everyone involved in that conversation subject can respond and discuss and provide feedback in a group-like manner, and anyone can easily go back through the conversation to review it.

However, going through the process of "collecting" one or more unrelated posts to respond to in one merged post makes no sense at all. When I have one-on-one conversations with a group of people in a room, I don't walk around and hear what each people has to say on the subject that concerns them, then go to the center of the room and reply to each one, one after the other, all at once.

I certainly appreciate the work that any admin does to keep a thread under control and eliminate any bad or toxic behavior, and discipline the rule-breakers. The PC Assetto Corsa thread is a wonderful place to visit frequently, and a wonder that it's on a site originally created for Gran Turismo. It's the admins' work that greatly contribute to the success--and I know it can be a difficult and frustrating job sometimes.

 

[Fanapryde]

So you've also had posts deleted in the past without obvious reason or notification?

If someone hadn't told me, I would not have known, since I never got an alert about it. But tbh it's not a big issue for me, worthless post about the 2000 page wasn't really worth keeping anyway.

 

[Masscot]

If someone hadn't told me, I would not have known, since I never got an alert about it. But tbh it's not a big issue for me, wortless post about the 2000 page wasn't really worth keeping anyway.

Whether it bothered you or not isn't really the issue here though, the fact remains that posts get deleted without notification or reason given, which is not what we are told is supposed to happen.

 

[ImaRobot]

Whether it bothered you or not isn't really the issue here though, the fact remains that posts get deleted without notification or reason given, which is not what we are told is supposed to happen.

If so, the post you quoted was deleted, so that resulted in your post being deleted. The staff would have notified whomever it was that made the original post, but as it wasn't your post that was at fault you wouldn't necessarily have been notified.

This seems a bit overblown.

However, going through the process of "collecting" one or more unrelated posts to respond to in one merged post makes no sense at all. When I have one-on-one conversations with a group of people in a room, I don't walk around and hear what each people has to say on the subject that concerns them, then go to the center of the room and reply to each one, one after the other, all at once.

It seems to make perfect sense, really. See how I replied to two subjects in the same post? It's all pretty simple, and is in no way confusing for anyone involved.

FYI, you wont get a notification for this because I edited in this post afterwards instead of making a double post. The problem here is there is no way you should compare it to talking in a room with someone, because you're not. There's no correlation there.

 

[Masscot]

This seems a bit overblown.

Thanks for your interest in this discussion. I don't know whether you visit the thread in question on a regular basis but it can be quite frustrating to spend time writing a perfectly normal post only to have it disappear without trace, or to go looking for one you mentally bookmarked earlier only to find that it's vanished, or to spend time trying to make sense of a thread that now has confusing context-destroying gaps. These aren't posts that violate ToS, they just seem to get deleted on a moderator's whim. If the moderator explained why the posts were deleted or edited then it would help tremendously.
Apart from anything else it's a little creepy and Big Brotherish for posts - any posts - to suddenly disappear from a conversation as if they never existed. It's not like the post is replaced by a note saying 'post deleted'... they just disappear.

 

[Famine]

These aren't posts that violate ToS, they just seem to get deleted on a moderator's whim.

As already stated posts don't have to violate the terms of service to be deleted or edited - but neither are they amended by whim. The post that seems to have started this for you was one which only served the purpose of quoting and responding to a post that was itself deleted. There's nothing more "context-destroying" than a random post in the middle of things quoting a post that doesn't exist.

Apart from anything else it's a little creepy and Big Brotherish for posts - any posts - to suddenly disappear from a conversation as if they never existed.

That analogy doesn't apply to private entities with which you have agreed terms of service:

GTPlanet expressly reserve our rights under the law to take any other actions we deem necessary, and may remove posts or withdraw membership at any time for any reason.

Though don't confuse that for allowing individual moderator whimsy; it doesn't. The staff answer to me, and I answer to @Jordan.

 

[TheRealCeeBee]

ahhhh... I guess i better read the tos and rules, I just thought a lot of people had learning disabilities which was why their posts made no sense... turns out the posts just get swept into one uncohesive illegible post?

so what is the allowable time between posts to make them not double posts?

 

[Masscot]

As already stated posts don't have to violate the terms of service to be deleted or edited - but neither are they amended by whim. The post that seems to have started this for you was one which only served the purpose of quoting and responding to a post that was itself deleted. There's nothing more "context-destroying" than a random post in the middle of things quoting a post that doesn't exist.

That analogy doesn't apply to private entities with which you have agreed terms of service:

Though don't confuse that for allowing individual moderator whimsy; it doesn't. The staff answer to me, and I answer to @Jordan.

That's actually very useful, thanks. I'm quite uncomfortable with it (and you don't need to say nobody is keeping me here if I'm uncomfortable) but at least the policy has been clarified. I now know what to expect, that posts can be deleted without violating ToS. That's where a lot of the confusion stemmed from I think.
I still think it would be useful if some acknowledgement of the deletion was made so you don't start questioning your own sanity and wondering whether you'd imagined the whole thing.
And speaking of clarification, "the post that seems to have started this for you was one which only served the purpose of quoting and responding to a post that was itself deleted" isn't strictly true, these stealthy deletions of user posts have been happening on occasion for as long as I can remember. That particular post just finally triggered a reaction from me.
Good good. Thanks again.

 

[Famine]

I guess i better read the tos and rules

Well, you have already done that. You ticked a box to say that you had during the sign-up process, before you picked a username for yourself.

I just thought a lot of people had learning disabilities which was why their posts made no sense... turns out the posts just get swept into one uncohesive illegible post?

We don't exclude those with learning disabilities - or those who do not speak English as a first language - but exactly which posts are you talking about that are "uncohesive illegible" (I suspect you meant "incoherent, illegible") posts due to this sweeping?

so what is the allowable time between posts to make them not double posts?

There is no defined time because, as previously explained in this thread and in the FAQ, sometimes it can be useful to make a second successive post - such as the example I already gave, where a user became aware of some new information not previously noted in the thread and which did not supplement the original post, having made the previous post in the thread 33 minutes before.

Someone quoting one person and then making a second post to quote another person directly after it is, unless a lot of time has passed, double-posting instead of using the Multiquote feature.

Double-posting isn't actually a problem, really. It's something we ask people to avoid, and lay out the reasons why in the FAQ (along with the notes that have been quoted and requoted here that it can be useful on some occasions, so is not explicitly forbidden). We will merge double-posts where they appear unnecessary - along with notifications that we have done so - but it's really something of a diversion here.

 

[ImaRobot]

Thanks for your interest in this discussion. I don't know whether you visit the thread in question on a regular basis but it can be quite frustrating to spend time writing a perfectly normal post only to have it disappear without trace, or to go looking for one you mentally bookmarked earlier only to find that it's vanished, or to spend time trying to make sense of a thread that now has confusing context-destroying gaps

I'm not new here, I know how this site works, so the part of the forum it is in is irrelevant. I've had plenty of post deleted, the majority of which with no notification, and having been here for as long as I have, I completely understand why - even if I wasn't here a long time, they are laid out for you before you finish the sign up process, for the most part.

The ironic thing is, the ones that usually get deleted are those context-destroying posts.

These aren't posts that violate ToS, they just seem to get deleted on a moderator's whim. If the moderator explained why the posts were deleted or edited then it would help tremendously.

Is this from when you quoted a post that was subsequently deleted?

If so, the post you quoted was deleted, so that resulted in your post being deleted. The staff would have notified whomever it was that made the original post, but as it wasn't your post that was at fault you wouldn't necessarily have been notified.

 

[GzeroD]

Double-posting isn't actually a problem, really. It's something we ask people to avoid, and lay out the reasons why in the FAQ..../QUOTE]

Then why are Mods bothering to merge at all? My posts where kept separate on Purpose. The merging did exactly what I hoped to avoid, as is human nature when presented with more than one question respondents tend to only answer one.
To merge posts a moderator must read the context which requires more effort than the resulting merge is going to save in forum etiquette or what not.
This recent example was close time wise but I kept them separate on Purpose.
The previous example had five posts in a row! But as I am in Australia the forum was off peak at that time, so although my posts appeared to be doubles they where actually spaced out in time. Each was a separate answer to separate posters on separate subjects.

 

[Famine]

Well, that car crash of a post seems like an appropriate place to wrap it up.

I've explained everything clearly. If you choose to ignore half of everything I say in order to persist with not understanding then it's pretty clear you don't want to engage, just rant, and there's not a great deal of point in sinking any more of anyone's time into that.