Confusion about tuning FF road cars (450pp)

[viotunes]

Hey everyone,

this is the first thread I'm creating on this forum.

Let me start off by saying that I've read through a lot of tuning guides on this forum and I generally find all the advice very applicable on every car except for front wheel drive cars at 450pp. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but somehow the default tune tends to be close to fastest and any other change I make will only reduce the tune's grip in some way (either on the corner entry or exit). I can't seem to make any noticeable gains on my laptime either.

I have multiple theories for why this could be, one of them being that my driving style just isn't right. But I also think that I'm misunderstanding something about tuning these cars. I tend to make the front rather soft and keep the rear end more stiff in an attempt to reduce the understeer, my LSD settings tend to be very low too. I've tried changing some of these settings and doing it differently but that tends to give me slower or equal laptimes. I'm running Sports tires on all my tunes. I've tried mostly 90s JDM cars like the Honda CRX del-sol, Honda CRX SiR, Mitsubishi FTO GP Version R etc.

I've also considered that these cars are simply not meant to run under these conditions so the tires can never have the grip they'd need to make the car run well. Or maybe I'm just bad at picking cars.

So my question is how you guys like to tune FF cars and what I should be looking out for when tuning mine. I just feel like my approach is the wrong one...

 

[True-blue-8]

Hey everyone,

this is the first thread I'm creating on this forum.

Let me start off by saying that I've read through a lot of tuning guides on this forum and I generally find all the advice very applicable on every car except for front wheel drive cars at 450pp. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but somehow the default tune tends to be close to fastest and any other change I make will only reduce the tune's grip in some way (either on the corner entry or exit). I can't seem to make any noticeable gains on my laptime either.

I have multiple theories for why this could be, one of them being that my driving style just isn't right. But I also think that I'm misunderstanding something about tuning these cars. I tend to make the front rather soft and keep the rear end more stiff in an attempt to reduce the understeer, my LSD settings tend to be very low too. I've tried changing some of these settings and doing it differently but that tends to give me slower or equal laptimes. I'm running Sports tires on all my tunes. I've tried mostly 90s JDM cars like the Honda CRX del-sol, Honda CRX SiR, Mitsubishi FTO GP Version R etc.

I've also considered that these cars are simply not meant to run under these conditions so the tires can never have the grip they'd need to make the car run well. Or maybe I'm just bad at picking cars.

So my question is how you guys like to tune FF cars and what I should be looking out for when tuning mine. I just feel like my approach is the wrong one...

Sounds good, but make sure the springs are fairly stiff. Rear needs to be stiffer but they should both have high settings anyway. ARB i run about 4/5. But most of how the car behaves comes from my driving, rather than tuning ability

 

[OdeFinn]

@viotunes Civic tune
One approach to go really quick FWD.

 

[demonchilde]

From what I have tested, just about 1 out of 5 FF's throw off the curve.
Meaning 4 out of 5 can all be very similar settings wise when done tuning, but that 1 car will need completely different set up.
You were probably on the right track but got thrown off your thinking by hitting one of those. Or even worse, started learning on one, lol.
Try a few tunes from the garages around here, see which garage has a similar drive style to you. Anything, doesn't have to be FF. Just check for style.
Then grab an FF tune 'that you've already worked on' and take note of the different things they did.

 

[viotunes]

Thanks for the responses, I'll try it with slightly stiffer springs, some different tune ideas and different cars.

@OdeFinn Isn't the Spoon Civic classed as a race car or am I confusing it with another one? I will try that tune, thanks.

 

[DolHaus]

Keep the springs balanced (use the little blue bars if you haven't messed with the weight distribution) rather than soft/hard as this will give the car a more natural feel. The overall stiffness/softness is generally down to what tyres you're running, the stiffer it is the less grip you'll have but the more responsive to input it'll be so basically you want it as responsive as the tyres will allow without taking away grip.

The dampers will help shape most of the characteristics but it is important to think in pairs:

• Front Damper Compression + Rear Damper Extension = Braking/corner entry behaviour

To make the car more stable at the rear on entry have Rear Extension higher than Front Compression, to make it less stable and easier to rotate set Rear Extension lower than Front Compression.

• Front Damper Extension + Rear Damper Compression = Acceleration/corner exit behaviour

During corner exit you want to be keeping as much weight over the front wheels as possible in order to provide traction for turning and power delivery. You generally want these as high as you can get without negatively affecting the inside/outside wheel balance *

*when cornering you will transfer weight away from the inside wheel and onto the outside, if your outside tyre is letting go (smoking or turning yellow/red on the indicator) then you are either transferring too much weight onto it or not transferring enough weight on to it. Systematically raise and lower Compression and Extension separately until you find improvement or loss.


Other useful tips for getting better rotation out of FF's include the standard removal of camber (camber seems to kill grip so only use on the rear in an FF) and bringing toe back to 0 before beginning the tuning process. Raising the front end higher than the rear is always an efficient way of improving front end grip, a bit of Toe Out (-) on the rear can improve rotation no end but be careful as it can make the car a bit fidgety if there is too much. Try a stiffer front ARB rather than the more traditional stiff rear, having a stiff front and wobbly back end can really improve the chuckability of a car.


Give this on a try and see if you like it, one of my favourite FF's in the game:
Mazda2 '03

👍

 

[OdeFinn]

@OdeFinn Isn't the Spoon Civic classed as a race car or am I confusing it with another one? I will try that tune, thanks.

Not racecar, but maybe not liked on online rooms, because it's so quick on 450pp.
But that suspension style on that my tune can be used for most FWD cars, getting liftoff oversteer etc.
So try as "practise" car, if it suits your driving style I may assist for more on other FWD cars.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Hey everyone,

this is the first thread I'm creating on this forum.

Let me start off by saying that I've read through a lot of tuning guides on this forum and I generally find all the advice very applicable on every car except for front wheel drive cars at 450pp. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but somehow the default tune tends to be close to fastest and any other change I make will only reduce the tune's grip in some way (either on the corner entry or exit). I can't seem to make any noticeable gains on my laptime either.

I have multiple theories for why this could be, one of them being that my driving style just isn't right. But I also think that I'm misunderstanding something about tuning these cars. I tend to make the front rather soft and keep the rear end more stiff in an attempt to reduce the understeer, my LSD settings tend to be very low too. I've tried changing some of these settings and doing it differently but that tends to give me slower or equal laptimes. I'm running Sports tires on all my tunes. I've tried mostly 90s JDM cars like the Honda CRX del-sol, Honda CRX SiR, Mitsubishi FTO GP Version R etc.

I've also considered that these cars are simply not meant to run under these conditions so the tires can never have the grip they'd need to make the car run well. Or maybe I'm just bad at picking cars.

So my question is how you guys like to tune FF cars and what I should be looking out for when tuning mine. I just feel like my approach is the wrong one...

Please read through pages 141 and 142 of my garage when you have spare time ( read 143 onwards for more LSD infos ), some infos about tuning, discussion about damper, LSD and some posted setup if you are keen to try them, make sure to read the notes, the 240SX HKS has specific damper option that may give you insight on how simple change can alter a car handing.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...8-totw-ruf-rgt-lsd-vettec6zr1.294814/page-141

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...8-totw-ruf-rgt-lsd-vettec6zr1.294814/page-142

There's a damper tuning phase reference list that may be useful on page 142 and my simple damper workflow on page 141.

Spring is the 1st step, yes, when I try to find a good spring combo, I usually put all ARB to 1 ( softest ), this will show the car natural roll under load. When I got a good spring rate according to my needs/goals/target balance, then I started with full stiff ARB on both axle, see how the car handle. This is where I will decide to go with how much ARB to use, depending on what needs to be taken care of on the car handling issue

The flow would be like this : Spring - ARB - Damper. Sometimes, I have to back to ARB again, if damper setup feels lacking or reached a turning point. you never know, a click down on ARB either front or rear can turn a problematic car at certain corners to be much better.

For ride height, I usually set them at equal value, not too low as well to avoid unwanted side effects of bottom out. Sometimes I put certain limitation when building a tune or replica, usually using toe values, camber, LSD and ride height ( like the ISF CCSR that I kept the ride height difference to maintain visual height of the real car ) This way, I can build car with aggressive rotation or not, simply by taking off these chains of limitation. When I want FF car with optimal rotation, sometimes I use these limitation using LSD with high initial, accel and brake, high toe in, and high camber I coaxed as much as possible rotation + stability from spring + ARB + Damper, then if I want more, I started to loosened up the limits from LSD, toe and camber. Sometimes I used ride height difference as well, but it can be hit and miss on certain cars.



Thanks, hope you like those 2 new car

That's a good time, as long as you survive

I have been asked by @Pete05 about damper tuning, I wrote this damper tuning steps that I have been using ( adapting from real life experience )


Here is how I used real life experience in damper tuning :

Make sure the spring rate is settled ( no more change ), then set all damper to full soft ( all 1 in GT6 ). Now fine tune the ARB, go full soft 1/1 and see how the car balance at tracks like Tsukuba or Apricot Hill. Play around with ARB, add more front or more rear, see how it affect the balance, then go full hard 7/7. Notice how you can feel the car has lot less roll and felt stiffer when turning. Adjust the ARB according to your preference or target goal ( more/less rotation, stiff or soft/low response )

Now, when you have ARB dialed in ( no more changes ) you can start damper tuning. In GT6 damper values are hidden in specDB, damper are 4 ways in GT6, each car has unique damper value preset/range. So damper at 1 for Supra will be different to Integra ( damper rates ) So 1 is softest possible and 10 hardest possible for a given car. Each click of damper in GT6 alter the value preset by 1 step.

Damper tuning is simple yet can be very complicated in the process.
First, start with compression at the front, while keeping all other damper at 1 ( full soft ) Raise it slowly until you find the car can brake without too much dive, turn in with minimal understeer. Too high front compression may cause understeer, so when you start feeling the front become heavy/less responsive to steering, dial back.

Next, the rear compression, similar to front, but it will give opposite effect, too high, and the car will oversteer / easier to lose traction. The best place to test is at SSR5 or Apricot Hill ( hairpin to the last chicane ) Go for low comp for more driver friendly rotation, soft/low will also more compliant on bumpy tracks. Some cars may need high comp, depending on the weight/distribution, damper preset value and tires used.

Now after you feel the compression for both axle are okay ( don't have to be perfect yet ), start with extension :

Front extension, raise it slowly, the higher you go, the less the car will rotate mid corner onwards, while giving more stability under heavy acceleration. You need to find balance, the front extension works together with rear compression under longitudinal acceleration. When you find the sweet spot, you can accelerate earlier out of corner without pushing too wide. Weight distribution and drivetrain ( MR,FR/AWD/FF ) have some effect on front extension effectiveness. Sometimes low front extension is more than enough, depending how high is your rear compression as well. There is a curve for front extension, too lower, the car may push on exit/sluggish, get it spot on, the car will rotate nicely without much drama, too high and it will start to push early on exit ( easily noticed on FF car )

Rear Extension, this is often the last to touch, when all other 3 dampers are finely tuned, you can feel how great the impact of altering rear extension. Rear extension works under braking/entry and as well on other situation ( rotation on entry and high speed cornering ) This can be felt easily simply by raising it to 5 or more, on FR, you will feel more eagerness to turn in, and more response on high speed cornering. Running low rear extension on FR car like Viper or Corvette will make it less responsive to steering, as well as more lazy on turn in. Too high rear extension may produce more oversteer on entry and other situation.

Now, this is for baseline damper, now you need to test it for more varied track condition, test it further at Tsukuba, Apricot Hill, Midfield, and SSR 5. Tsukuba is great for deep braking test, medium speed corner holding, low speed stability and quick direction change response ( dunlop entry )
Apricot Hill is good for high speed braking/cornering stability ( 1st turn, esses and long left curve ), low speed exit up hill ( hairpin exit ), high speed sharp curve ( the right curve after hairpin ), and high elevation change ( last chicane ) If you find the tires overloaded on the last chicane, you may need to raise the damper.
Midfield, similar to Apricot Hill, the 1t turn is great for braking while turning stability, the exit of 1st turn is good for stability under acceleration. The track is bumpy, so a good damper will absorb all the roughness of the road surface without making the car nervous/unpredictable. The hairpin to the last tunnel is a great place to test how the damper handle late braking, extreme outside load on the tire ( the right kink on entry ), rotation and rear damper handling the bumpy road on exit.
SSR5 is smooth track, so it's more focused on direction change, stable speed holding on curves, rotation on low speed entry.



Auto Union post has been updated with 3 replays for Bathurst, Midfield and Apricot Hill, all on CS tires and real torque specs.

@OdeFinn also added more after those quoted posts on page 141.

 

[demonchilde]

You know, THIS is why I like it here. The second someone needs help, everyone drops what they are doing to lend a hand if they can.
There is not enough of this in the world.

 

[coryclifford]

Raise the front ride height, slam the rear.

 

[MrGrado]

lots of rear toe out for FF.

 

[Otaliema]

Don't forget an agressive LSD, 5/35/5 at min is what out on my FF cars. That way it's trying to rotate on throttle too

 

[viotunes]

As demonchilde said, super happy with all the responses and cant wait to get back tuning.

Don't forget an agressive LSD, 5/35/5 at min is what out on my FF cars. That way it's trying to rotate on throttle too

This seemed counterintuitive to me since I felt like high values would just reduce front grip on corner exit and therefore create understeer. Do you have an example tune where I can check out the way it works?

 

[Otaliema]

This seemed counterintuitive to me since I felt like high values would just reduce front grip on corner exit and therefore create understeer. Do you have an example tune where I can check out the way it works?

If you spin up the outside tire yes it can cause understeer.
Sicoroo R Race built stable corners well.
Mini Coopet S '11
TT built very fast but a tad unstable.
Thouse are two my fastest FF cars.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Modulating throttle helps a lot with high accel LSD, most FF car with 450PP are high on torque/power considering the usual tire width/size and compound fitted, so unless 450PP FF has SS tire fitted, SH or SM may still needs throttle modulation of out slow corners.

 

[DolHaus]

As demonchilde said, super happy with all the responses and cant wait to get back tuning.


This seemed counterintuitive to me since I felt like high values would just reduce front grip on corner exit and therefore create understeer. Do you have an example tune where I can check out the way it works?

If you can get rid of the wheelspin using a more open diff then go ahead but if, as so often is the case, you can't really get rid of it entirely then you're better off with a higher Accel as it will give more positive and predictable drive out of the corners 👍

 

[Wydopen]

Yes, FF cars are known for unloading the inside front tire during cornering. A higher accel value will help counteract this. As was mentioned before, if you are frying the inside tire, add accel. Try to keep decel and initial fairly low. If the initial is too high, the car may jerk on corner exit when the Diff kicks in. If the decel is to high, the car won't rotate as well on corner entry. I usually run mine low in the back with heavier springs in the back as well as at least a little toe out. There is definitely good info in this thread.