Conservatism
- Thread starter HenrySwanson
- 1,545 comments
- 83,339 views
- 11,327
- Marin County
I think you can be genuinely antisemitic and doggedly pro-Israel at the same time*. It's because Israel, as a nation, frequently attacks (defensively or otherwise) the people they find even less desirable than Jewish people - Muslims. I also think that the MTG brigade probably appreciates that Israel is in it's place - that is, they are Jews removed from western society, they are arms-length away.
*I also think you can be critical of Israel without being antisemitic, which is a tactic that Republicans love to deploy.
- 28,807
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
I sense this isn't worded quite as you intended.
- 11,327
- Marin County
- 16,491
- Grea'er Laandan
- UKMikeyA
- UKMikeyA
Not sure whether they count as conservatives per se, but from 2017, here's a short video about how the alt-right controls the conversation by using bad arguments to bait the left into appearing weak by trying to compromise in debate.
Last edited:
Danoff
Premium
- 33,003
- Mile High City
It's a good video, and it's fair, but I think it's maybe not the best strategy with everyone.
It's sometimes hard to tell the difference between someone who is just looking to score points with an audience, and someone who just genuinely has a lazy web of circular reasoning underpinning the idea that's being argued about. Arguing that sexual harassment is ok for your side because the other side does it too could be a tactic to score points, but it can also simply be exactly how they justify it to themselves - well if they can accept it so can I. Refocusing the discussion back to the issue at hand may not be making any progress toward what is supporting that position with the person you're arguing with. Because what's supporting it is the perceived hypocrisy of the criticism.
The terrible reasoning that most people present just reminds me of arguing with religious people. There is always another unsupported assumption to fall back to as proof that the thing they can't support is correct. Some religious people might be looking to score points or win people over, but most of them are just confused and think they're right. The only way to get through to them is to try to activate their own critical thinking onto some foundation that they haven't brought critical thinking to. How do you do that with someone who doesn't have critical thinking skills? Well, probably you fail.
For sure this is not Trump, or anyone who is engaging in bad faith discussion. But there are people who are just confused, and they try to show you why they're confused, sometimes by using the same tactics that worked on them, to see how it works on you. Denying the tactic makes no progress, you have to address the actual tactic.
- 16,491
- Grea'er Laandan
- UKMikeyA
- UKMikeyA
"Slick Willy is also a philanderer and you voted for him" is a valid counterargument. Going on to Gish gallop through multiple arguments like "language never hurt anybody" and " he stopped talking that way" is more likely to categorise the debater as falling on the "disingenuous groyper" side of the fence rather than the "confused Facebook granny" side to my mind, though. The videomaker addressed the initial argument only for his hypothetical combatant to move the goalposts constantly.
Danoff
Premium
- 33,003
- Mile High City
Not that it's not entirely fabricated of course but...
"Suzy is now going to read her report on the oppressive nature of slave ownership in the pre-civil-war US" is something modern conservatives would claim is Suzy being dragged in front of a class and being forced to state that she's an oppressor.
- 2,851
- Australia
Has anyone raised the issue in this thread of clearing natural land for housing/commercial development, and for mining? The "conservatives" will often be on the side of development/progress, while conservatism would often see people showing greater opposition to development, yes? "Conservation".... it's right there in the word.
Then we have conversation of history. A "conservative" might oppose removing a statue of a controversial historical figure, while conservatism might have people opposing destroying for mining purposes an ancient cave painting of say a Zulu killing a Tutsi.
I think that we can fairly confidently know what to generally expect of a "conservative" but maybe not so much how and where conservatism will apply.
- 2,851
- Australia
If we're viewing being "a conservative" and being "conservative" as not the same thing then I think that there are plenty of examples of a conservative approach not being aligned with right wing views.
Being against deforestation to make way for housing, mining, etc. is a conservative approach. Wanting to preserve historical landmarks is a conservative approach (regardless of the type of history). Wanting Islam to go back to it's pre-extreme days is a conservative approach. Surely all of those examples would see at least a decent proportion of left wing people showing a conservative attitude. Another one.... there's is manatee-like animal species in Australia called the dugong - it's considered endangered but Australian aboriginals have an exemption to be allowed to kill them for "cultural" reasons. Do you expect that the exemption was driven by right wing, or left wing people? The answer is probably very obvious. What we've likely got there then is essentially two types of conservation at odds with each other, and both coming from the left.
You: "Conservatism is a purely reactionary ideology. It stands against change. It's insane.". Your assessment (and its absoluteness) seems a very awkward fit with the examples I've given above. Most of this thread's content seems to suggest that conservatism is a right wing thing and that it's "insane" - I think it's far from that simple.
- 28,807
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
A conservative isn't a conservationist isn't a conservator. These are all words rooted in "to conserve," and yet they all have their own meanings. This isn't to say that a particular individual can't reasonably be described as any combination of these three things, or even all three, but the three things are indeed different.
Conservatism, particularly the sort of conservatism that has been percolating in the United States for...well, probably decades, even if it may have been borne out of the fringes...as a purely reactionary ideology that stands opposed to progress, to social change...
...
...is insane. It's fueled in significant part by moral panic and culture war grievance. Because of this, it's self-fulfilling; it's a feedback loop.
I'll be the first to say that social change isn't inherently good, nor can it always be reasonably considered "progress," but opposition to specific instances of social change isn't conservatism.
Last edited:
What about modern america isent a mental ilness ?
Nearing 50% obesity. Mutilating kids out to gender delusions, riots looting excused based on what polytical ile the criminals fall on.
Both sides sure agree on bombing functioning nations into backward hell on earth ****holes, whiel casuing the deaths of millions for the casue of whatever slogan of the month is.
- 28,807
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
Physiological condition from which physiological illnesses may be borne out.
Can you highlight a prevalence, or even individual examples, of minors (since you explicitly refer to "kids") being subjected to gender affirming surgical procedures?
Can you highlight a prevalence, or even individual examples, of lawlessness being excused in the eyes of the law based on viewpoint?
...
I get that you've got your panties in a twist over what I've said, but I'm not here to make you feel good about yourself.
Last edited:
- 2,851
- Australia
I think it's divisive to wilfully narrow the description of a word in that way. For convenience, I even ran with "a conservative" (akin to as if it were a political party's name) leaving conservatism as the malleable term. Surely someone that is careful with their money can be said to be displaying conservatism. Is it uncomfortable to think that you might have some conservative views? I'm confused about the motivation for the strong and restrictive language. Me? I like to weave my way through these topics in a way that might make people realise that they're not as different to each other as they thought they were.
- 28,807
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
The narrowing has been done for me. I'm not keen to betray the evidence of my own eyes and ears.
Sure, I may hold some views that those who consider themselves to be conservative hold, particularly as it relates to fiscal responsibility, but that's not the sort of conservatism that's prevalent in public representation in the United States, and if elected representatives don't fit within such a limited definition of conservatism, can the electorate reasonably be said to?
I'm also not willing to cater to the desire for a safe space, and much of the strong, divisive language I use has been plucked from the vocabularies of those at whom it's directed; that's kind of the point of using it.
- 28,807
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
Touching again on the notion that modern American conservatism has lost the plot. Consider tort reform--effort to curtail civil cause of action litigation--once championed as part of the American conservative platform, and contrast with recent laws that explicitly weaponize the litigiousness of the aggrieved, particularly with regard to abortion (Texas, SB 8) and disfavored speech (Florida, HB 1557, termed "Don't Say Gay" bill by opponents; Florida, HB 7, "Stop W.O.K.E. Act").
- 2,156
- United Kingdom
'Family Sex Show' urging kids to explore 'sexual pleasures' cancelled
Theatre company ThisEgg complained it had been forced to scrap its show, which encourages little children to explore sex and sexuality, 'before it opened' in Bristol and Norwich after a parent backlash.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Overreaction or justified? Gotta admit this one made me a little uneasy....
Danoff
Premium
- 33,003
- Mile High City
Do you have kids? You might be surprised at what kids do and when.'Family Sex Show' urging kids to explore 'sexual pleasures' cancelled
Theatre company ThisEgg complained it had been forced to scrap its show, which encourages little children to explore sex and sexuality, 'before it opened' in Bristol and Norwich after a parent backlash.www.dailymail.co.uk
Overreaction or justified? Gotta admit this one made me a little uneasy....
