Conservatism

2,156
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Looking at the state of the right wing, in the UK and US at least, do most arguments when approached from a socially conservative platform not seem to....make sense? By that I mean do they stand up to well reasoned, forensic analysis or do they have shaky foundations which are easy to deconstruct by a competent opposition. I'm not questioning the intentions of those who express such views, and frequently they do "have their heart in the right place", but I wonder why people continue to hold onto those views despite the sometimes overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The most prominent example would probably be the US election results, but that is just one example out of many that includes rights to obtain abortions through to thinking it's "PC gone mad" when a radio station censors an LGBT slur in a popular Christmas song. And then if we dive deeper we come to conspiracy theories ranging from anti-vaxxers to NWO plots.

I guess what I want to know is, how viable is conservatism now and heading into the future?
 
Last edited:
I used to think American conservatism revolved around constitutional conservatism. I thought it was about originalism, interpreting the spirit of America as the founders did, etc. Traditionalism.

But then I realized that there was a hefty religious aspect to it. Okay, kinda makes sense, a lot of protestant Christianity here, it's inevitable that religion would influence politics...even though that goes against originalist interpretation, but whatever. At least it makes sense. Religious conservatism, like Mitt Romney, got it.

But then I realized that they were actually all morally corrupt dickheads who seem to strive to make life as complicated as possible for poors and coloreds. And I'm like, well that certainly goes against an originalist interpretation of "All men are created equal" (pending the definition of "all" of course), and it also goes against any Christian sense of morality that I've ever heard of. So what's the deal?

As it turns out, American conservatism appears to have evolved into an ideology that revolves around wealthy white people and protecting their ways of life. That is how they define conservatism now - they're trying to conserve their wealthy white ways of life. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you ignore the fact that that's basically the definition of white supremacy.
 
Kind of relating to what Keef touched on regarding conservatism's heavy ties to religion, primarily Christianity, I think conservatism may begin to see a slow downfall in support in the future as more & more people become non-religious. Although these folks could still easily support what else conservatism is made up of, as long as there is a huge basis rooted in religion, maybe that could push them away to becoming Independents or something else. I had seen something earlier this year that many young adults/teenagers were becoming less religious than ever before with some shared stories of people who said that they had a Bible in their homes and their religion was Christian, but they didn't go to church as kids and didn't really adhere to it as strongly as older generations.
 
Possibly the common denominator of all true conservatives is that they wear both a belt and suspenders.
 
Last edited:
Kind of relating to what Keef touched on regarding conservatism's heavy ties to religion, primarily Christianity, I think conservatism may begin to see a slow downfall in support in the future as more & more people become non-religious. Although these folks could still easily support what else conservatism is made up of, as long as there is a huge basis rooted in religion, maybe that could push them away to becoming Independents or something else. I had seen something earlier this year that many young adults/teenagers were becoming less religious than ever before with some shared stories of people who said that they had a Bible in their homes and their religion was Christian, but they didn't go to church as kids and didn't really adhere to it as strongly as older generations.
This trend has been going on for quite a while now and seems almost universal. Similar things are happening in much of Europe. It's a huge demographic shift and is closely tied to young people leaving rural areas for cities. The white population in particular is becoming more urban and less religious in the US, quickly shifting away from conservatism, and I think even in the next decade or so we're going to see a massive shift in voting habits from these people. As for becoming independents, unless the traditionally religious conservative Republican party can salvage itself, I agree that many reasonable religious conservatives may be forced to abandon it or invent something else. We might see party fracturing in our lifetimes. I just don't see how reasonable people who remind me of Mitt Romney can possibly come to terms with this wild and seemingly unexpected Trumpism takeover of the Republican party. It doesn't make sense to me.
 
Last edited:
American and English conservatism is still heavily based on WASPs being WASPs. Because they're just better than you. You :censored:ing pleb.
Oh, I dunno about that. I think it's more genetic. White, black and Latino alpha males do tend conservative, IMHO.
 
Kind of relating to what Keef touched on regarding conservatism's heavy ties to religion, primarily Christianity, I think conservatism may begin to see a slow downfall in support in the future as more & more people become non-religious. Although these folks could still easily support what else conservatism is made up of, as long as there is a huge basis rooted in religion, maybe that could push them away to becoming Independents or something else. I had seen something earlier this year that many young adults/teenagers were becoming less religious than ever before with some shared stories of people who said that they had a Bible in their homes and their religion was Christian, but they didn't go to church as kids and didn't really adhere to it as strongly as older generations.

In Europe, or certainly protestant Northern Europe, we are perhaps a couple of generations ahead of you here. I know nobody in my age group who are openly religious or go to church. Literally nobody. I know an increasingly small proportion of people of my parents age (boomers) who are openly religious or go to church. Yet of my now gone grandparents age group, about half regularly went to church or considered themselves as actively religious, although i guess all would at least say they were Christians - where as of my parents age group, some would say they were atheists or agnostic.
 
American and English conservatism is still heavily based on WASPs being WASPs. Because they're just better than you. You :censored:ing pleb.
In the UK its also historically had a massive element of social class in it as well, the smartest thing British conservatives did was manage to convince the working class that a bunch of privately educated rich kids were actually on the same side as them.

Just a friendly reminder that we're approaching the ultimate expression of the victimhood that conservatives have cultivated among themselves, the holiday season and the supposed war on Christmas.
More fun than being accused of taking Christianity out of Easter (a Pagan lunar festival), but at least they have than in common, both being stolen from other religions.
 
More fun than being accused of taking Christianity out of Easter (a Pagan lunar festival), but at least they have than in common, both being stolen from other religions.
Of course this brings us to sufferers of the conservative victim complex roused from their stupor by prominent "leftists" referring to those worshipping on Easter Sunday when a Sri Lankan church was targeted in a terrorist attack as "Easter worshippers" because they were supposedly too uncomfortable to call them Christians.

Conservatives, of whom many are Easter worshippers*, are some of the most fragile people on the planet.

*I shouldn't have to indicate this as sarcasm, but as the subject is conservative victimhood, it may actually be necessary.
 
Just a friendly reminder that we're approaching the ultimate expression of the victimhood that conservatives have cultivated among themselves, the holiday season and the supposed war on Christmas.

Guess I need to break out my Mistletoe TOW Missile launcher, Garland Grenades, and my Christmas Carbine.

Or if you rather:
 
Simply put, the problem with conservatism is and always has been that it is a reactionary ideology. One that is against change by default and seeks to regress, to a "traditional" and "good ol' days" world that never truly existed. Reactionary movements are almost universally not looked positively throughout history. Conservatism has also always historically benefited the wealthy/ruling class over the poor and marginalized. Conservatism and fascism, though obviously not the same ideology, are closely linked. There are four typical factors in my mind which cause an individual to support conservatism: lack of education/exposure, bigotry, lack of compassion, and greed. In the future, conservatism will always exist as long as the four aforementioned causes also exist.

Conservatism in the United States seems to be winning the "culture war" right now, less because of its own merits, but more because it is the alternative to an insanely strawmanned view of the "left" alternative; an intrusive, big-government, globalist, hyper-politically correct world where there are millions of genders and sexualities, white christian men are under constant attack from academia, media, and Hollywood, freedom of speech is banned in the name of protecting oppressed groups, masculinity is sexist by default and men are becoming feminized into submissive, weak "soy-boys", students are taught far-left anti-American propaganda in schools and universities, Antifa/BLM vigilantes roam the streets attacking random bystanders and "burning down cities", there are completely open borders, innocent men are jailed over the mere allegation of sexual harassment, people are "cancelled" for speaking universal truths such as "we are all equal" or "not all cops are bad", etc. I could go on. Conservatism is instead presented as a pro-freedom, equality of opportunity, "live-and-let-live" alternative, when in actuality, that is libertarianism, not conservatism. I'd even go as far as saying that the Democratic party's failings, focusing too much on sounding "woke" on social issues while not doing nearly enough to substantively address the massive and growing income inequality, expand healthcare and university access, workers'/union rights, solve issues caused by institutionalized racism, end the wars, solve climate change, etc, is what empowers conservatism.

And of course, the fast-growing social media platforms and influencers that are funded by billionaires and other dark money such as PragerU, TPUSA/Charlie Kirk, Louder with Crowder, Ben Shapiro/Daily Wire, DC Draino, etc, are the biggest contributors to the conservatism winning the "culture war" by promoting their strawman/ad-hom attacks and misinformation. This is being done not because the founders and donors of these organizations are deeply passionate about Americans having "traditional values" and whatnot, but because it is a calculated strategy to keep the masses perpetually distracted from class issues, fearing "the left" instead of the greedy politicians and corporate lobbyists as well as the power structures that keep screwing them over. The left, sadly, isn't as effective at promoting their progressive ideologies to the masses and moving away from the stereotype that they are all hyper-woke crybaby SJWs. Part of that is to do with there being more ideological factions on the left (excluding the alt-right, conservatives seem to be unified on nearly every issue) as well as the lack of funding. As aforementioned, the wealthy and powerful have always promoted conservatism for a reason.
 
Last edited:
Oh, I dunno about that. I think it's more genetic. White, black and Latino alpha males do tend conservative, IMHO.
Genetic or societal? Obviously both, but the societal aspect has a huge impact and varies greatly among populations and geographic regions.
 
I used to think American conservatism revolved around constitutional conservatism. I thought it was about originalism, interpreting the spirit of America as the founders did, etc. Traditionalism.

But then I realized that there was a hefty religious aspect to it. Okay, kinda makes sense, a lot of protestant Christianity here, it's inevitable that religion would influence politics...even though that goes against originalist interpretation, but whatever. At least it makes sense. Religious conservatism, like Mitt Romney, got it.

But then I realized that they were actually all morally corrupt dickheads who seem to strive to make life as complicated as possible for poors and coloreds. And I'm like, well that certainly goes against an originalist interpretation of "All men are created equal" (pending the definition of "all" of course), and it also goes against any Christian sense of morality that I've ever heard of. So what's the deal?

As it turns out, American conservatism appears to have evolved into an ideology that revolves around wealthy white people and protecting their ways of life. That is how they define conservatism now - they're trying to conserve their wealthy white ways of life. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you ignore the fact that that's basically the definition of white supremacy.
Is it white supremacy or some other kind of supremacy? Looking at the Conservatives in the UK we have Asian members in prominent positions (Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak, Sajid Javid) and a black London mayoral candidate (Shaun Bailey).

Maybe it's all to do with the money....
 
I'm not sure that who London might pick for mayor has much to do with how the American right sees race. Their mainstream politics extend a lot further right than ours does and seems to be more closely aligned with the white evangelical churches as well as white Catholics and (non-evangelical) Protestants. Sizeable majorities of those demographics backed Trump.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...but-eight-in-ten-say-they-would-vote-for-him/

https://web.archive.org/web/2020102...merican-christianitys-white-supremacy-problem
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure who London might pick for mayor has much to do with how the American right sees race. Their mainstream politics extend a lot further right than ours does and seems to be more closely lined with the white evangelical churches as well as white Catholics and (non-evangelical) Protestants. Sizeable majorities of those demographics backed Trump.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...but-eight-in-ten-say-they-would-vote-for-him/

https://web.archive.org/web/2020102...merican-christianitys-white-supremacy-problem
Could there be a unifying factor between the suburbs of the UK and the voters of Bolsonaro or Trumpists....
 
Maybe it's all to do with the money....
I'm not so sure. Virtually all politics and politicians revolve around money. On the honest hand, it's part of their job to secure resources and aid for their constituents so of course lobbyists for industries in their district will have influence. But on the dishonest hand, every single politician personally benefits from that in some way. Money and government go hand in hand, party notwithstanding.

So no, I don't think money is the defining factor. I do think the culture of racism in American history is unique, more recent, and more entrenched than in many other places in the world, and I think that's the defining factor. One of our parties is just blatantly racist.
 
I'm not so sure. Virtually all politics and politicians revolve around money. On the honest hand, it's part of their job to secure resources and aid for their constituents so of course lobbyists for industries in their district will have influence. But on the dishonest hand, every single politician personally benefits from that in some way. Money and government go hand in hand, party notwithstanding.

So no, I don't think money is the defining factor. I do think the culture of racism in American history is unique, more recent, and more entrenched than in many other places in the world, and I think that's the defining factor. One of our parties is just blatantly racist.
A sad state of affairs. One party that has moved from dog-whistley racist to overtly racist, and another party that has moved from segregationist to being borderline annoyingly "woke" while doing nothing substantive to address institutional racism in the US.
 
Click this link to the r/Conservative rubreddit at your own risk, mostly due to sheer idiocy and possible language.

In there you'll find "conservatives" arguing that they should form a party about small government and individual liberty. Oh yeah? What a novel idea.

Another person suggested forming a "constitution party". Oh yeah? WHAT A NOVEL IDEA.

Those two statements are so stupid I can't tell if they're trolling or not. Thank god I got banned from that sub after only five comments - and thank god they actually ban people who disagree with them unlike the libertarian subs - or I'd be ripping into these people so hard.

Here's another one I just came across: "The worshippers [of Trump] are just as immature, and ridiculous as the Never Trumpers, and Libertarians."

Edit: So instead I went on a messaging frenzy and came up with this for one of them, in reply to a person who said they would not vote Republican again:

If you won't vote for Republicans next election then who will you vote for? The Libertarian Party? The Constitution Party? This calls into question why you've never voted for either of these parties before because I doubt you have. Why didn't you? Why just *now* realize you should vote for someone else? Why now, after the Libertarian Party actually lost ballot access because Republicans refused to vote for them, and the Constitution Party barely has any ballot access to begin with because Republicans don't even care that they exist?

You say you won't vote for Republicans next time, but you have nobody else to vote for. And the reason you have nobody else to vote for is precisely because you refused to support parties which *actually* uphold the conservative principles of constitutionality, small government, states rights, and individual rights. It's almost like if you actually gave a damn about any of these things then you never would've voted Republican in the first place, and you wouldn't be screwed with no feasible option in 2024.

Republicans have nobody else to blame for this conundrum than themselves. They say they're conservatives, but they have refused to support conservative parties for decades, instead seeking only to rival Democrats. And now they find themselves morally corrupt, and without any feasible parties which have any principles to stand on.
 
Last edited:
As I see it, conservatives are people who are, serially, on the wrong side of history about everything. The Earth revolving around the sun, the Earth being round, the divine right of kings, the viability of democracy, Evolution, women's rights, civil rights, gay rights, trickle down economics, supporting fascism etc. etc.
 
I will also add that the majority of sociologists, historians, anthropologists, and psychologists tend to be left leaning, and this is not arbitrary. Of course today’s conservatives will tell you that this is purely a result of “far-left indoctrination” at universities rather than the people in these fields making up their own minds. It turns out the more you know and can understand about history and human behavior, the more likely you are to be opposed to reactionary beliefs. Like I said, history never looks favorably upon reactionary ideologies/movements. That’s why conservatives have been engaging in lots of historical revisionism lately, such as “The Civil War wasn’t about slavery” or “The Nazis we’re socialists” or “Fascism is actually a left ideology” or “The US was the first place to abolish slavery” or that every war the US entered was solely to “spread democracy and protect people from tyranny”, among many others. PragerU is a goldmine for this.
 
Last edited:
I have yet to hear anyone successfully convince me that the Nazis were socialists as it's well known they hated Russia/USSR.
 
I have yet to hear anyone successfully convince me that the Nazis were socialists as it's well known they hated Russia/USSR.
Just watch the 5 minute PragerU video about it lol

I mean Hitler has even said multiple times that he opposed Marx’s ideology.
 
Back