Could Forza Motorsport 8 Give Players Every Car from the Start?

[breeminator]

One can be enthusiastic about racing in general, but also enjoy the type of gameplay that provides a feeling of reward and accomplishment through progression.

But why does that need to be linked to obtaining cars? You can progress and feel a sense of accomplishment by using the cars rather than obtaining them. When I bought FM7 I was top 4% in rivals. Now I'm often around top 0.1% in FH4 rivals. That's progression. The problem with linking obtaining cars to "challenges" is it's impossible to set the difficulty to work for any more than a tiny percentage of the player base. If it provides a challenge for a small number of people, it will be impossible for people significantly less talented, and a boring chore for people significantly more talented. So it's much better to let people achieve progression and feel a sense of accomplishment by improving at their own level.

 

[warp9engage]

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the feeling of working your way through a series of challenges.

Never said there was anything wrong with it. To each their own.

One can be enthusiastic about racing in general, but also enjoy the type of gameplay that provides a feeling of reward and accomplishment through progression. These are not things that are mutually exclusive.

Yes, you can like both, that's not what I think is strange. What's strange is abandoning the whole game just because there is no content left to obtain. Racing games are for racing and, just because you unlocked everything, doesn't mean you can't race anymore or that the racing is of lower quality. But, sure, if you want to stop playing once you've got all the achievements, that's your prerogative. I still find it strange that you would buy a racing game when the racing isn't what's keeping you there, but rather the progression. In that case why not play a RPG, like you pointed out as an example of a leveling/unlocking-focused game?

And in a game as broad as Forza Motorsport, one would think that it wouldn't be that hard to cater to players who enjoy both styles of gameplay.

Agreed, choice would be the ideal scenario and I hope Turn 10 takes that approach. I don't want to be forced into someone else's play-style, if possible.

 

[Imari]

Never said there was anything wrong with it. To each their own.

Except that you're not a "real racing game fan" if that's what you enjoy. Everyone loves some good gatekeeping.

Yes, you can like both, that's not what I think is strange. What's strange is abandoning the whole game just because there is no content left to obtain. Racing games are for racing and, just because you unlocked everything, doesn't mean you can't race anymore or that the racing is of lower quality. But, sure, if you want to stop playing once you've got all the achievements, that's your prerogative. I still find it strange that you would buy a racing game when the racing isn't what's keeping you there, but rather the progression. In that case why not play a RPG, like you pointed out as an example of a leveling/unlocking-focused game?

Because I like racing games and something that combines racing and progression appeals to me? Because if a major part of the fun is the progression and I've finished the progression, I might as well move on to working on my progression in another of the many similar games? I've been enjoying these styles of games since Gran Turismo 1, I'm not about to stop now just because some dude on the internet thinks that he understands what I enjoy better than I do.

If I just want to go racing I play Assetto Corsa or iRacing, because that's what they do well. If I want a caRPG I come to Forza, because that's what it does well.

The problem with linking obtaining cars to "challenges" is it's impossible to set the difficulty to work for any more than a tiny percentage of the player base.

Ah, the old Gran Turismo fallacy that it's impossible to have variable difficulty levels. Gotta stick with that one difficulty that's the exact same for everyone, right?

It's been decades since games started having selectable difficulty, and that's only the most basic of systems compared to what some games are doing in 2020. There's nothing wrong with allowing the player to choose how hard they want to be challenged for their rewards. If someone wants to set it on easy and stomp their way through, more power to them. If someone wants it to be ultra-hard, great. It's perfectly possible to have a system where the user can select their difficulty, even change it on the fly to better suit their needs.

And remember that cars don't need to be locked in every part of the game. It's possible to have a "career" mode where you build your garage, and free run or time trial modes where all cars are open.

So it's much better to let people achieve progression and feel a sense of accomplishment by improving at their own level.

Right. And some people can be plonked in a sandbox and will quite happily make challenges for themselves. And others would prefer to be given a structure by the game itself and work through that. Both are perfectly valid ways to enjoy a game, and based on how most big games are designed I'd guess that there's more players that prefer the latter than the former.

 

[warp9engage]

Except that you're not a "real racing game fan" if that's what you enjoy. Everyone loves some good gatekeeping.

You missed part of what I wrote.

(...)is not really a racing game fan. Or at least racing is not what they like the most about the games.

Either you don't really like racing games and just play them for the achievement hunting aspect or you like both racing and the achieving, but put more importance on the achieving aspect. That's what's said there or at the very least that's what was intended to be said. I'm no gatekeeper, I strongly dislike gatekeeping.

Because I like racing games and something that combines racing and progression appeals to me? Because if a major part of the fun is the progression and I've finished the progression, I might as well move on to working on my progression in another of the many similar games? I've been enjoying these styles of games since Gran Turismo 1, I'm not about to stop now just because some dude on the internet thinks that he understands what I enjoy better than I do.

If you prefer to move on to another game because you've finished the progression of the current game, nothing against it, on the contrary. I even say it here:

(...)if you want to stop playing once you've got all the achievements, that's your prerogative.

I'm not telling you there is a right way to play racing games. Only that, regarding your way:

I still find it strange (...)

Strange does not mean wrong. Like eating liver is strange to me too. I don't understand how people can eat that but I don't want to take it away from those who do eat it. Between eating liver and not eating liver there is no right or wrong choice, just different tastes. Same situation with the progression style of play and sandbox style of play. Ideally, both should be available so that everyone can enjoy the game.

I only have a problem with anyone who wants to impose their preferred style of play onto others. And, once again, I just find abandoning a racing game, due to lack of additional progression, strange from my point of view. This is not a wrong or right view, just a different one, on the subject. I wouldn't want to impose sandbox on everyone, which is why I like the parallel mode approach of games like PCARS.

 

[Dave A]

Genuine question to some of the people, in this thread, that say they would stop playing without progression: what is it that you really like about your racing games, the racing or unlocking rewards?

It may be just me but it doesn't click with me that someone who stops playing a good racing game, just because nothing is being dangled in front of them as an enticement, is not really a racing game fan. Or at least racing is not what they like the most about the games.

For me, the reward is the racing. It's jumping in to my favorite car, on my favorite track and laying down rubber, door-to-door with the competition. Anything necessary to reach my favorite car and track is just work.

It's the whole package, and the game has to work as a whole.

Enjoying racing is important, and the game has to provide entertaining races to promote that. But there's also nothing wrong with enjoying the journey of going from a slow car to a fast by through a well throught out career progression system.

The sandbox approach is fine, there is certainly a place for that, but it would be shame to change what Forza fundamentally is and to turn it into what we already have in other titles. There is nothing on X-Box or Windows like Gran Turismo except for Forza Motorsport, nothing, yet I can jump into a number of other games that give me access to everything from the go where it's just pick a car and track and get lapping.

There are certainly rewards to be felt by getting that new lap record and finding that perfect tune, but there are also rewards in working your way through a well considered career mode as well. A different type of rewards, but rewards all the same. I've discovered cars I wouldn't have gravitated towards at all thanks to the Gran Turismo and Forza career modes.

If Forza Motorpsort 8 became a sandbox there would be less reason to get it, absolutely, because I already have that type of game. It doesn't surprise me or bother me that not everyone gets that the journey of a game (even a racing game) is important because it isn't for everyone. But it would be a huge shame to change what Forza Motorsport is when there is nothing that really rivals it on the platforms it's on.

 

[warp9engage]

It's the whole package, and the game has to work as a whole.

Enjoying racing is important, and the game has to provide entertaining races to promote that. But there's also nothing wrong with enjoying the journey of going from a slow car to a fast by through a well throught out career progression system.

Agreed. Both are valid things to enjoy in a racing game, according to one's tastes.

The sandbox approach is fine, there is certainly a place for that, but it would be shame to change what Forza fundamentally is and to turn it into what we already have in other titles. There is nothing on X-Box or Windows like Gran Turismo except for Forza Motorsport, nothing, yet I can jump into a number of other games that give me access to everything from the go where it's just pick a car and track and get lapping.

It's true that the extensive career is something missing from most, if not all, other simulation titles. It's also true that the massive, and comprehensive, car and track list of games like GT and Forza can't be found in those other sandbox games. The closest one is PCARS but even that one falls a bit short in its content. Hence why it would be good if, alongside the career, we could get a sandbox mode in those games. The best of both worlds.

There are certainly rewards to be felt by getting that new lap record and finding that perfect tune, but there are also rewards in working your way through a well considered career mode as well. A different type of rewards, but rewards all the same. I've discovered cars I wouldn't have gravitated towards at all thanks to the Gran Turismo and Forza career modes.

Certainly. There are many ways of finding a game rewarding.

If Forza Motorpsort 8 became a sandbox there would be less reason to get it, absolutely, because I already have that type of game. It doesn't surprise me or bother me that not everyone gets that the journey of a game (even a racing game) is important because it isn't for everyone. But it would be a huge shame to change what Forza Motorsport is when there is nothing that really rivals it on the platforms it's on.

Well, for me, if it became sandbox, there would be more reasons to purchase it. But I look for different things.

And as you say, not everyone sees the appeal of 'working your way up'. For me it's more to do with the fact that 'working your way up', struggling, is what you'd do in real to get somewhere. The thing is, when I play a video game, I want realism in certain aspects but I want things that are 'red tape', in real life, to not be translated into the game, in order to relax and 'live the dream'.

The same way, some others can't see the fun in sandbox. And that's OK. It's just different tastes.

I would really want to have a mode where you can gradually earn your cars and parts, advancing through the championship, for those who like it. As well as a mode for just jumping in and 'going nuts'. I believe, if memory serves correctly, Forza has successfully done this in the past and it would be amazing if it did so again.

 

[Dave A]

I would really want to have a mode where you can gradually earn your cars and parts, advancing through the championship, for those who like it. As well as a mode for just jumping in and 'going nuts'. I believe, if memory serves correctly, Forza has successfully done this in the past and it would be amazing if it did so again.

Absolutely, and the perfect compromise (which I don't think is even a compromise, it's just common sense to me) would be for Forza 8 to have the traditional career mode but then a free race type sandbox mode where every car and track is unlocked from the start. There are plenty of ways and means to make both modes gel within the same game, it just takes a bit of thought and planning.

By the way, Asetto Corsa for the PC has hundereds of downloadable cars and tracks, it's great for picking a car and track combo and just going for it. I'm not sure what the support is like for it on console though.

 

[warp9engage]

By the way, Asetto Corsa for the PC has hundereds of downloadable cars and tracks, it's great for picking a car and track combo and just going for it.

There's just one issue with AC's mods: quality can vary dramatically. At least, if they're all from the same development team, judged to the same standard, like Forza's list, the differences should not be significant.

 

[r_outsider]

Genuine question to some of the people, in this thread, that say they would stop playing without progression: what is it that you really like about your racing games, the racing or unlocking rewards?

It may be just me but it doesn't click with me that someone who stops playing a good racing game, just because nothing is being dangled in front of them as an enticement, is not really a racing game fan. Or at least racing is not what they like the most about the games.

For me, the reward is the racing. It's jumping in to my favorite car, on my favorite track and laying down rubber, door-to-door with the competition. Anything necessary to reach my favorite car and track is just work.

I've written about this many times, for myself (and I believe most of the guys I race with), one of the things that absolutely kills a new game is the grind. We're all older. We've been playing racing games since Pole Position was in the arcades (or earlier). We've done the career thing to death already. We also have families and jobs and responsibilities, we just don't have time to do the grind like we used to. And I don't mean to belittle people who do get some enjoyment out of some sort of progression, but we've already done it so many times, the real meat and potatoes, the things that keep us racking up hours, of a game for many of us is never, and never has been, what is usually a fairly artificial feeling career.

A good example of a game that has got this all wrong is Ride 4, not many got it and many of those who did gave up on it quite quickly because you start with a bike you didn't pick, can't afford one you want, and have to jump through very difficult hoops in the form of completely unenjoyable license tests and such to progress. Apparently beyond all of that is quite a deep game, but I look at the next test and think, do I really feel like blowing the hour I have doing that (and for many of us, an hour may be what we get now for game time in a week), and usually then fire up another game to ride a bike I do like, or go drive something I haven't before, or do some setup work on an IndyCar or something I enjoy instead.

 

[merseyxshore]

In my opinion, Assetto Corsa Competizione has absolutely nailed the play/reward dynamic, and it's nothing to do with unlocking cars, upgrades or tracks. ACC rewards you for racing clean, being consistent and improving your car control, which in turn contribute to your overall safety rating and which online races you can take part in. It doesn't sound like much, and the game may only have a very limited number of cars, classes and circuits, but it's easily the most rewarding racing game I've played for years.

I'm personally hoping that the new Forza Motorsport, is more like what Project Cars 3 should have been: solid driving physics, focused motorsport disciplines and classes, fuel and tyre wear, pit strategies, driver swaps etc, all while remaining accessible to gamepad players and wheel nerds alike. A modernised, more in-depth TOCA Race Driver would be perfect. It seems that with Project Cars 3 crashing and burning, the market is wide open for this kind of thing, and it would make sense with a series reboot that looks like it's going to lean on the Motorsport aspect. Even the very brief trailer only showed race-prepared cars on a racing circuit. Let's hope T10 leave the car collecting, wacky upgrades and bodykits to Horizon!

 

[GBalao888]

If Turn Ten will ditch the car collecting mechanic altogether, I wonder how this will turn out, especially if you'll be customizing and tuning them. Especially if you've got an insanely huge amount of cars that can be expected. Even more so in the career modes.

But in Free Play, this is perfectly okay as you can choose any car you want "as is" (with rental cars) and race for the heck of it. I just wish you could choose the car's default manufacturer colors and perform car-specific set-up tuning (with parameters wherever possible) like in the older games.

 

[ImaRobot]

If Turn Ten will ditch the car collecting mechanic altogether, I wonder how this will turn out, especially if you'll be customizing and tuning them. Especially if you've got an insanely huge amount of cars that can be expected. Even more so in the career modes.

But in Free Play, this is perfectly okay as you can choose any car you want "as is" (with rental cars) and race for the heck of it. I just wish you could choose the car's default manufacturer colors and perform car-specific set-up tuning (with parameters wherever possible) like in the older games.

The thing is there was never a "car collecting mechanic." That notion can still exist with 300 cars, or 1000 cars - the amount of vehicles doesn't change that, at least if you're not expecting a completely unrealistic drop in content. You get so much easy cash in these games that buying these cars are of absolutely no issue so not having you pay for them won't be changing much for the game, to me.

 

[merseyxshore]

If all the cars are already race cars, then I'd be perfectly happy without customising and tuning etc. I'd rather the cars were already prepared and optimised, so all that's left is the car setup. Except for liveries, that aspect is great.