could use a little help on a project if anyone has free time :)

demonchilde

demonchilde

968
United States
Maine
VooDooChilde333
Ok, I am working on a car that a friend requested, that in no way would I ever choose for what he wants to do with it. So as far as my personal comfort zone goes, I left that 90 miles ago with this car, lol. I am not looking to put this is my garage, or even post it in the site tunes department, just trying to make a friend happy.
So if anyone has any spare time and can help me get this car's bugs worked out, I thank you in advance.

The problem;
The Buick Special
The bigger problem;
He wants it for use in 600pp races, with full cornering ability to be competitive.

Long story short, here's where I am so far;
Suspension (in order top to bottom)
90/70
9.00/8.00
8/6
4/8
4/5
0.0/0.0
+0.05/-0.05 (yes, your seeing that right)
Br= 7/9
LSD= 5/13/20

Now, all power is added, and oil changed. Limiter =100%
All weight reduction added as well.
Right now, I have 98kg @ +50 on ballast. Giving this a 54/46 distribution.
The total weight is only 1,215 which to me is still not too bad considering the 848hp.

The LSD (the accel anyway), and the suspension are my biggest targets right now, and as you see by my latest Toe experiments, I am really going outside the box while trying to find this car's sweet spot. I have other things I am working on as well, and I have found spending TOO much time in one setting on a car can produce negative results, unless you step back and come back later with fresh eyes.
So, feel free to give advice and help away, I only ask one condition;
Please, if you haven't actually driven this car (nondrifting), take it for a spin first. The usual suspects while tuning are not quite the same. If they were, this help request wouldn't be here, lol.
Thanks in advance^^
Happy Holidays to the crew ^^
 
May I suggest you try flipping your comp/ext settings and try that first. Also upping LSD initial trying around 14 believe it or not.

So try 6/8, 8/4 on the dampers, lower ARB of 3 May help as well.

Good luck.
 
The first hump I had to get around was some understeer that developed apon the hp increase. Some of the settings I had so far just fixed some issues, but caused others, but then trying to fix the others, caused the initial issues, back n forth, rinse repeat.
Two things I have not done, and really don't want to, is adding a wing is possible, and the chassis reinforcement.
I will try your suggestions, thanks man.
The LSD adjustment I am excited to try, I admit, but I fear the other suggestion will put me right back in the issue stated above, it will work, but reverse something else and cause another needed fix. I have had the Dampers all over the spectrum, lol.
This one might actually need a complete start over, I think I went to deep in the rice repeat process.

EDIT:
I guess, in gt5, he used this as one of his go-to cars for seasonals. And I remember this car handled a ton better in gt5. I hope he doesn't think he is getting that same car, I don't think it's possible.
 
6/8 8/6 does seem to help.
And understeer is not God awful, but you even tap on that gas slightly before the nose is fully turned from apex and you'll be doing the 'oh:censored:/chirpchirpscreech' dance. (And most likely giving your outside front Tire some free grass taste tests before your done)

If anyone actually has the car already, please take it for a drive where it stands so far, and see if there's anything worth adding to this mix. Don't buy it on my account though, things like 800,000 or close to it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have been doing a ton of testing on cars that have a built in understeer problem, and using positive front/negative rear toe to cure it. Here is what I have found:

1) at +4 front and -3 rear, you are at the point of diminishing returns.
2)The rear CAN NOT SPIN! Period!! This takes away the negative rear toe's ability to steer around the corner. If you can't eliminate the tire spin, cut the power back till you can.
3) Weight distribution is CRITICAL! I would start at 49:50 and move from there. Too much front axle weight and the tire just slides. More weight to the rear will also help the tire spin there.
4) STIFF ARD's, 7/4 or 7/5. If you are trying this type of tune, you already know there is a grip problem. Keep the body as level side as possible, with out killing fore/aft movement, (will need the weight transfer). Both tires get a chance to grab, and you are depending on the rear to rotate the car through the corner. Too soft and the car will "walk" up on one rear tire and become unmanageable. (remember the NO TIRE SPIN rule above)
5) I also had no luck with split ride height.....keep 'er level.

This is a MADDENING way to tune, however, results can be spectacular! I am about to unveil a bunch of Viper's with this type of tune. They are fast and a great drive. The few tested by others have had good feed back. HOWEVER, if you are not already bald.......you may be SOON!

Good Luck!
 
demonchilde
Ok, I am working on a car that a friend requested, that in no way would I ever choose for what he wants to do with it. So as far as my personal comfort zone goes, I left that 90 miles ago with this car, lol. I am not looking to put this is my garage, or even post it in the site tunes department, just trying to make a friend happy.
So if anyone has any spare time and can help me get this car's bugs worked out, I thank you in advance.

The problem;
The Buick Special
The bigger problem;
He wants it for use in 600pp races, with full cornering ability to be competitive.

Long story short, here's where I am so far;
Suspension (in order top to bottom)
90/70
9.00/8.00
8/6
4/8
4/5
0.0/0.0
+0.05/-0.05 (yes, your seeing that right)
Br= 7/9
LSD= 5/13/20

Now, all power is added, and oil changed. Limiter =100%
All weight reduction added as well.
Right now, I have 98kg @ +50 on ballast. Giving this a 54/46 distribution.
The total weight is only 1,215 which to me is still not too bad considering the 848hp.

The LSD (the accel anyway), and the suspension are my biggest targets right now, and as you see by my latest Toe experiments, I am really going outside the box while trying to find this car's sweet spot. I have other things I am working on as well, and I have found spending TOO much time in one setting on a car can produce negative results, unless you step back and come back later with fresh eyes.
So, feel free to give advice and help away, I only ask one condition;
Please, if you haven't actually driven this car (nondrifting), take it for a spin first. The usual suspects while tuning are not quite the same. If they were, this help request wouldn't be here, lol.
Thanks in advance^^
Happy Holidays to the crew ^^
Click to expand...

I'll test tomorrow, but I have a question : What tyres compounds do you choose ? They are the most important part of the handling caracteristics :P
 
demonchilde
Ok, I am working on a car that a friend requested, that in no way would I ever choose for what he wants to do with it. So as far as my personal comfort zone goes, I left that 90 miles ago with this car, lol. I am not looking to put this is my garage, or even post it in the site tunes department, just trying to make a friend happy.
So if anyone has any spare time and can help me get this car's bugs worked out, I thank you in advance.

The problem;
The Buick Special
The bigger problem;
He wants it for use in 600pp races, with full cornering ability to be competitive.

Long story short, here's where I am so far;
Suspension (in order top to bottom)
90/70
9.00/8.00
8/6
4/8
4/5
0.0/0.0
+0.05/-0.05 (yes, your seeing that right)
Br= 7/9
LSD= 5/13/20

Now, all power is added, and oil changed. Limiter =100%
All weight reduction added as well.
Right now, I have 98kg @ +50 on ballast. Giving this a 54/46 distribution.
The total weight is only 1,215 which to me is still not too bad considering the 848hp.

The LSD (the accel anyway), and the suspension are my biggest targets right now, and as you see by my latest Toe experiments, I am really going outside the box while trying to find this car's sweet spot. I have other things I am working on as well, and I have found spending TOO much time in one setting on a car can produce negative results, unless you step back and come back later with fresh eyes.
So, feel free to give advice and help away, I only ask one condition;
Please, if you haven't actually driven this car (nondrifting), take it for a spin first. The usual suspects while tuning are not quite the same. If they were, this help request wouldn't be here, lol.
Thanks in advance^^
Happy Holidays to the crew ^^
Click to expand...
I will test this car as well, can I test this using a wheel.
 
Well, he wanted the car to be of use for 600pp maximum races, given that, then SS and RH for tires.
I have been tuning on SS, but testing on both. You might be thinking that RH grip should kill any of these issues, but that is not the case at all. The only difference between the two types on this car, at this PP range, is that the SS slide a tiny bit more, and the RH helps with exit grip (kinda obvious, lol). I honestly think it's better with the SS 'because' it will slide a bit, where the RH rail the understeer too much.
As far as track goes, except for top speed trials, I ALWAYS test on Apricot Hill. If you can handle those corners and smile, you can handle any track in the game. Plus it's a short track, and doesn't take too long to get to the first set of corners to test it. As a matter of fact, when tuning, I rarely even go all the way around that track, I hit the S curves, turn around on the long back, and hit the S curves going the other way, lol.
I set my Transmission up to handle decent power evenly when tuning is done, but not while I'm tuning. I'm not going to retune the whole thing every time I make an adjustment, lol. Just auto set it to like 180 or 200.
As far as weight ratio goes, the car starts out at a horrible 58 or 56 front. Even at full Ballast it's never seeing 50/50, lol. So tuning has to be made knowing fully that the front is going to hold the weight no matter what. It can be helped, but not evened out.
Thanks for the reply so so far.
I saw the new Star wars movie in 3D at the theatre tonight, absolutely loved it. I won't spoil it for anyone, but I am really looking forward to the next one now ^^

Edit:
Test it using whatever you want. He uses a controller, but any decent tune can be used by both anyways. And hopefully with this many people thinking, we end up with one in the end that everyone can use.
 
The thing about rigidity, is once it's there, there's no undoing it. And the car costs way too much to simply test that, without exhausting every possible other thing first.
And driver aids, go either 1/1 or 0/1. I am assuming 1/1 is probably going to be the only way to get this car near decent, but hey, if anyone can do it with 0/1 only, awesome.
(That's tc/ab, any use of the other aids hinders proper tuning.)
 
I've built this car back in GT5 ( a replica with real car data ), and adapted the setup to GT6 back in early 2014 ( chassis rigidity was not installed yet ), the suspension damper is still early test version, but I remembered tested at Apricot Hill ( the main track it was tested ), it did 1:38 flat on CS - real car fitted with Michelin Pilot Sport ( 556HP, 1364kg, 59/41, stanced like real car when on show ) Stock LSD, stock gearbox, just suspension tweak. It was very much drivable on RH at full power. The brakes were hopeless with full power though, had to upgrade to racing brakes :lol:

The stance is similar like this, the setup in real life :

BuickSpecial.jpg



I'll see if I can finish up the car and maybe change the suspension ( special build that still uses springs rate range offered by Super Ride kit ), gear ratio ( based on Richmond catalogue ) and LSD ( Ford 9" PosiTraction 31 Spline ) for more race oriented goals.
 
demonchilde
The thing about rigidity, is once it's there, there's no undoing it. And the car costs way too much to simply test that, without exhausting every possible other thing first.
And driver aids, go either 1/1 or 0/1. I am assuming 1/1 is probably going to be the only way to get this car near decent, but hey, if anyone can do it with 0/1 only, awesome.
(That's tc/ab, any use of the other aids hinders proper tuning.)
Click to expand...
I will only use TC 1 & ABS 1 and no body rigidity. Setting this car up now for test at Apricot Hill.
 
O.K. So, I maxed out the power, added a bit more weight, currently at 591pp, 807hp, and 1240kg. The car will rotate, as long as you are giving it a bit of power. !:25.5xx at Apricot Hill. Still need to optimize gearing. Am I near the ballpark?
 
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fordracer
O.K. So, I maxed out the power, added a bit more weight, currently at 591pp, 807hp, and 1240kg. The car will rotate, as long as you are giving it a bit of power. !:25.5xx at Apricot Hill. Still need to optimize gearing. Am I near the ballpark?
Click to expand...
I just tested the tank using only @shaunm80 Buick Special tune, suspension only on this car at Apricot Hill and I got a time of 1:25.334 and on RH tyres, anything less than RH the car all over the place.
 
Try this Hall90

591pp
807hp, put on everything including the supercharger
RH tires
Ride 85/85
spring 12.35/8.20
damp comp 8/7
damp ext 10/8
arb 7/4
camber 0/0
toe +0.04/-0.02


trans
final 3.000
mph to 273
1st 2.696
2nd 1.739
3rd 1.240
4th 1.000
5th 0.83
6th 0.700
final to 3.230

LSD 12/10/11

power 100%

weight 1240kgs
ballast 123kt
position +50


see what you can do with that, i am courious

forgot....racing brakes at 5/8
 
The Buick has no rotation issue as far as I know ( even with the stance ), it does have rear traction issue ( depending on torque and tire used )

I'm testing it now ( replica build on full power ), just suspension with the stance height and lsd ( positraction ), full power 807HP, stock weight 1364kg/59:41 580PP, stock gear ratio, stock clutch ( twin plate ), stock drive shaft, stock brake ( very high BB at 7/10 -no brake assist ) RH, 1:24.2s on 1st lap with 28s first sector ( long left hander - the short straight before can be taken flat out to hit 200kmh before braking for the long left entry ) and flat 57s last sector :)

The lap was driven like I stole the car, hooligan exit ( some wheelspin in last portion of some corner exit but floor it and it sort itself out as long as keeping steady on the steering ) and some patchy late braking entry. The car basically point and shoot kind of deal.

Tested at Bathurst with 556HP power, same setup, CS tire, sub 2:30s on 1st lap. Rear wheel spin on 2nd and 3rd gear going uphill, but very nice on downhill and conrod.
 
fordracer
Try this Hall90

591pp
807hp, put on everything including the supercharger
RH tires
Ride 85/85
spring 12.35/8.20
damp comp 8/7
damp ext 10/8
arb 7/4
camber 0/0
toe +0.04/-0.02


trans
final 3.000
mph to 273
1st 2.696
2nd 1.739
3rd 1.240
4th 1.000
5th 0.83
6th 0.700
final to 3.230

LSD 12/10/11

power 100%

weight 1240kgs
ballast 123kt
position +50


see what you can do with that, i am courious
Click to expand...
Ok thanks, I doing it now.
 
Ridox2JZGTE
The Buick has no rotation issue as far as I know ( even with the stance ), it does have rear traction issue ( depending on torque and tire used )

I'm testing it now ( replica build on full power ), just suspension with the stance height and lsd ( positraction ), full power 807HP, stock weight 1364kg/59:41 580PP, stock gear ratio, stock clutch ( twin plate ), stock drive shaft, stock brake ( very high BB at 7/10 -no brake assist ) RH, 1:24.2s on 1st lap with 28s first sector ( long left hander - the short straight before can be taken flat out to hit 200kmh before braking for the long left entry ) and flat 57s last sector :)

The lap was driven like I stole the car, hooligan exit ( some wheelspin in last portion of some corner exit but floor it and it sort itself out as long as keeping steady on the steering ) and some patchy late braking entry. The car basically point and shoot kind of deal.

Tested at Bathurst with 556HP power, same setup, CS tire, sub 2:30s on 1st lap. Rear wheel spin on 2nd and 3rd gear going uphill, but very nice on downhill and conrod.
Click to expand...

He was saying it had a lot of understeer......I attacked it through rotation. I will have to try yours when you get it done. Sounds great.
 
fordracer
He was saying it had a lot of understeer......I attacked it through rotation. I will have to try yours when you get it done. Sounds great.
Click to expand...

Maybe my driving style is different, I will upload the Apricot Hill replay here as well as the early build setup used for the lap ( only suspension and LSD ) hopefully it may help improving the OP tune :)
 
Here is the setup :

Early Build spec Ted and Sue Richardson's 1962 Buick Skylark Special "Bu" Wicked SEMA GT Award Winner 2003

Full Power - Install all power parts.

Suspension -HEIDTS Rear PRO-G IRS and HEIDTS Front SuperRide II IRS ( Billet Coilover ) with Air Ride : Ride Tech Shockwave
400 F/350 R Spring
Real Life Stance/Visual Ride Height Setup
Front, Rear
Ride Height: 55 120
Spring Rate: 7.14 6.25
Dampers (Compression): 4 2
Dampers (Extension): 1 8
Anti-Roll Bars: 2 7
Camber Angle: 1.0 0.5
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.00


LSD PosiTraction 9" Ford BASE
Initial Torque : 20
Acceleration Sensitivity: 20
Braking Sensitivity: 5

OPTIONAL : Use Stock LSD

Spec : 807HP, 1364kg, 59/41, all power parts, custom suspension and LSD, stock everything else. BB 7/10 ( should work with ABS 1 )

Try with full weight reduction, see if the car drives the same as stock weight. Tested at Apricot Hill on RH tire, 1:24.2s 1st lap, 28s 1st sector and 57 flat last sector, replay file included :)

Toe are still left at zero all around ( not touched yet ), rear camber set at -0.5 ( the rear PRO-G IRS produces -0.5 camber curve with travel/cornering loads ), front set at modest -1.0 camber :P

Front IRS SuperRide II spring rate offered 400, 450, 500 and 550, while rear IRS PRO-G IRS spring rate offered 350, 400, 450, 550 ( in lb/in ) Lowest spring rate used on both axle.

Also tested on CS tire with 556HP ( real car power ) at Tsukuba, SSR5 and Bathurst on different damper setup.
 

Attachments

  • BuWickedFullPower1m24sApricotHillRH.zip
    326.5 KB · Views: 15
Last edited:
demonchilde
Ok, I am working on a car that a friend requested, that in no way would I ever choose for what he wants to do with it. So as far as my personal comfort zone goes, I left that 90 miles ago with this car, lol. I am not looking to put this is my garage, or even post it in the site tunes department, just trying to make a friend happy.
So if anyone has any spare time and can help me get this car's bugs worked out, I thank you in advance.

The problem;
The Buick Special
The bigger problem;
He wants it for use in 600pp races, with full cornering ability to be competitive.

Long story short, here's where I am so far;
Suspension (in order top to bottom)
90/70
9.00/8.00
8/6
4/8
4/5
0.0/0.0
+0.05/-0.05 (yes, your seeing that right)
Br= 7/9
LSD= 5/13/20

Now, all power is added, and oil changed. Limiter =100%
All weight reduction added as well.
Right now, I have 98kg @ +50 on ballast. Giving this a 54/46 distribution.
The total weight is only 1,215 which to me is still not too bad considering the 848hp.

The LSD (the accel anyway), and the suspension are my biggest targets right now, and as you see by my latest Toe experiments, I am really going outside the box while trying to find this car's sweet spot. I have other things I am working on as well, and I have found spending TOO much time in one setting on a car can produce negative results, unless you step back and come back later with fresh eyes.
So, feel free to give advice and help away, I only ask one condition;
Please, if you haven't actually driven this car (nondrifting), take it for a spin first. The usual suspects while tuning are not quite the same. If they were, this help request wouldn't be here, lol.
Thanks in advance^^
Happy Holidays to the crew ^^
Click to expand...

I will be interested to see what you come up with for the Buick Special as it is a car that I race regularly - it is the closest car in appearance to the Ford Galaxie which Jack Sears used to win the British Saloon Car Championship in 1963. For this reason we use it in battles against the classic Mini etc, but at lower PP than 600. In our next championship we are using it at 500bhp and 545PP - a great car and very enjoyable to drive, but lots of traction problems if you raise the engine power.
 
Here is a video of @fordracer Buick Special tune, the only changes I made to the tune was Damp Comp 8/5, Damp EXT 5/8 and it did make it a lot better for me, a couple more very minor changes to the tune will make this car better to drive but it can be a handful at times.

 
If test on an online lobby, is it slower by 2 seconds ? (more slippery when online/ no driving assist ?)
 
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I made a setup, 1:22 at Apricot Hill, minor understeer but little wheel spin at the exit, I think this car need compromise and it's one of the several cars that can't be perfectly tuned, sadly 👍
 
steve nfs
If test on an online lobby, is it slower by 2 seconds ? (more slippery when online?)
Click to expand...

IMO, no such thing as more slippery, just the way it should be ( tire degraded and fuel loads ) :) Online when tire wear and fuel consumption is enabled, the car will be heavier due to fuel and needs better treatment to save the tire, on a short track like Tsukuba, usually 0.3-0.5s slower ( fastest lap with low fuel and good tire condition ) and on longer track like Bathurst aorund 0.8 to more than a second depending on fuel load and tire condition. These were my experience from my fan club races online with tire wear at very fast and 30 minutes races using my replica tunes ( made offline but also works online )
 
lBt_33
I made a setup, 1:22 at Apricot Hill, minor understeer but little wheel spin at the exit, I think this car need compromise and it's one of the several cars that can't be perfectly tuned, sadly 👍
Click to expand...

If that's with 600PP, it may be just right 1:21-1:22s. 580PP ( mostly stock parts ) good for 1:23s-1:24s, usually 1pp is good for around one tenth lap time improvement on short to medium track. And, there's no such thing as perfect tune, so what works for each driver is what counts, just my opinion in terms of ultimate lap time.
 
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