creation or evolution or other

[higgimonster]

Ok, I know this is very similar to the other religion post here but I wanted to discuss the more specific topic of Origin. This is definetly my favorite subject to argue.

I am an "Evolutionist." I believe that the thought of Adam and Eve as the first humans is shallow and blind.
I have a lot more to say but I want to hear what you guys think about it a little first.

 

[Klostrophobic]

Evolution.

 

[cybergoober]

…I'll go get the marshmallows…

 

[LoudMusic]

I think you're breaking it down too much for this group. There were only two or three people that took this spacific topic seriously in the other thread (Religion/Philosophy Thread), but I think that thread has gotten too long for anyone to reasonably contributed to the conversation.

However, if you read through it, your opinion of the people that post here at GTP may vary.

There just isn't enough support for 'philisophical discussions' on a racing game website.

~LoudMusic

 

[LoudMusic]

Originally posted by cybergoober
…I'll go get the marshmallows…

Marshmellows are made from animals ... you BARBARIAN! I'll stick to roasted veggies thank you.

Heh, just kidding. But that's another interesting topic. Vegitarian, or carnivore. I would guess that there aren't more than a couple vegitarians at GTP.

~LoudMusic

 

[Jordan]

Creation (don't get me started)...

 

[cybergoober]

Originally posted by LoudMusic


Marshmellows are made from animals ... you BARBARIAN! I'll stick to roasted veggies thank you.

Heh, just kidding. But that's another interesting topic. Vegitarian, or carnivore. I would guess that there aren't more than a couple vegitarians at GTP.

~LoudMusic

[drools]mmmmm… animals[/drools]

 

[higgimonster]

Originally posted by Jordan
Creation (don't get me started)...

really? (hmmm fresh meat)
You believe that some omnipotent and omniscious being placed a man and woman here on a world designed for specifically so we human's can thrive and not that humans grew and adapted to the world? What about all the evidence showing that the universe is 13billion or so years old? Mabey God placed everything here to trick us into thinking we evolved and the he does not exist.
I don't mean to sound demeaning here just attempting to push buttons

 

[Macka]

I'm educated, Catholic, and conflicted!

I've taken college classes *proving* evolution..skeletons, tools, and itty bitty parts of men and apes have been found and dated, showing the progression from apes, to walking upright, and then using tools.

However, as a Catholic, I am supposed to embrace creationism, as well as be against premarital sex, homosexuality, and abortion. I'm also supposed to forgive those preists for touching those little boys! Hell, I'm not supposed to be living with my GF right now let alone boink her.

What a pickle. For the record, I vote evolution.

 

[LoudMusic]

Originally posted by higgimonster

really? (hmmm fresh meat)
You believe that some omnipotent and omniscious being placed a man and woman here on a world designed for specifically so we human's can thrive and not that humans grew and adapted to the world? What about all the evidence showing that the universe is 13billion or so years old? Mabey God placed everything here to trick us into thinking we evolved and the he does not exist.
I don't mean to sound demeaning here just attempting to push buttons

Yeaaaaaaaaah ... same discussion we had before. If you're so educated, "mabey" you should read the Religion/Philosophy Thread before you start another one just so you can attempt to show off your wealth of basic college classes.

~LoudMusic

 

[LoudMusic]

Originally posted by Macka
I'm educated, Catholic, and conflicted!

I've taken college classes *proving* evolution..skeletons, tools, and itty bitty parts of men and apes have been found and dated, showing the progression from apes, to walking upright, and then using tools.

However, as a Catholic, I am supposed to embrace creationism, as well as be against premarital sex, homosexuality, and abortion. I'm also supposed to forgive those preists for touching those little boys! Hell, I'm not supposed to be living with my GF right now let alone boink her.

What a pickle. For the record, I vote evolution.

I'm finding more and more Catholics are 'confused' these days. The Church spent so many centuries making rules and laws for their own benifit that they forgot to pay attention to what was happening around them. Then they teach these instructions to the young Catholic children, which totally gets them off their guard for the real world. When they grow up and start watching the Discovery Channel, and taking college classes, they're told all sorts of new ideas that conflict with what they were raised to believe.

For a very long time the Catholic Church did a very good thing. It kept mankind from turning evil upon itself. But I think now they need to seriously re-evaluate their stance on major topics. And they have for the most part. But they need to make sure that they're educating their young ones correctly.

For background on me: http://forums.gtplanet.net/showthread.php?postid=108827#post108827

~LoudMusic

 

[Macka]

That's a heckuva post you got there LM (the one you linked to)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The Church (at least to me) just hasn't kept up with the times, and that's why I drifted away after high school. Now that I'm getting married this year (see sig) I've become a little involved with the church but that hasn't really changed my views all that much.

I keep finding excuses for not going on Sundays and to be honest I'm getting a little tired of it! I am having trouble committing to it because I disagree with some of the fundamental "rules" (as listed in my above post)

However, like you I believe that there is something...it's just that I feel as though the Church has gotten part of it wrong......

Sorry for derailing this thread, but it's a poll on evolution vs creation, so you knew it would come to this didn't you

 

[Klostrophobic]

Originally posted by LoudMusic


Marshmellows are made from animals ... you BARBARIAN! I'll stick to roasted veggies thank you.

Heh, just kidding. But that's another interesting topic. Vegitarian, or carnivore. I would guess that there aren't more than a couple vegitarians at GTP.

~LoudMusic

Omnivore here.

 

[higgimonster]

Originally posted by LoudMusic


Yeaaaaaaaaah ... same discussion we had before. If you're so educated, "mabey" you should read the Religion/Philosophy Thread before you start another one just so you can attempt to show off your wealth of basic college classes.

~LoudMusic

I apologize for any annoyance I may have caused here but my plain laziness is why I decided to start a new thread. BTW, never said I was sooooo educated. Just enjoy the topic a lot and spent some time researching the subject and was hoping to get a discussion going on it. I realize that these topics were discussed before in the other thread. I have no problem with you not liking this thread but I would appreciate it if you didn't insult me. Thanks.

 

[Flip]

if anyone wants the definitive answer, it should be known that life evolved on the earth, seeded by cosmic debris, over the millions of years we have evolved, we are no more important to the universe than common bacteria, this is the truth

 

[higgimonster]

LoudMusic,
I just finished reading that novel of a post . It sounds like you know what you want to believe. I feel that if someone blindly believes in what their church says and never questions themselves regarding their belief that they are unable to say that they truly belive (couldn't find the right words here, bear with me ). On the other hand, if someone, such as yourself, has questioned their beliefs, spent time pondering what they really feel about God and religion, and then come to the conclusion that Christianity (or any other religion) is the right choice for them then they have made the right choice and there is no way to actually prove them wrong.

(The following is a recital of last semesters philosophy class )
According to Karl Popper, a sound theory is one that has been questioned and riticuled and proven wrong and then modified to be true; from what you wrote you seem to have done this and made your choice to be christian.


I have done the same thing myself, in a sense. I did not grow up in a Southern Baptist church, and I only went to sunday school up until 8th grade thus I don't have nearly as much experience or knowledge of the churches teachings. I went to a protastant(sp) church that focused less on the bible then it did on forming a community within the church and out into the surronding town. They were a very liberal church, not discriminating against any lifestyle or race. I respect that but I can't bring myself to believe what the bible says is true.

The Bible does give the best lesson on how one should conduct themselves during their stay on earth. You can't just follow it blindly, it desires to be questioned and proded. I follow the basic underlying themes laid out in the Bible (as far as I know at least). I don't kill, steal, ridicule, or cheat (except in video games). I do onto others as I would want others to do onto me. But I don't do these things so that I may please a God or go to heaven. I do them because that is how I should act. I do everything for myself (not selfishly but I mean that I don't do things so that God will smile upon me). I like to know that if I accomplish something major I did it myself, no God helped me out, it was my own perseverance.

I have always been a scientificaly bound person. I need hard proof that something exists or is real in order for me to believe in it. It was this philosophy that sets up what I feel today. My general belief in religion is based upon the Church's inability to satisfy my views on the universe. (me personally, obviously this is not the case a lot of the time).

The following is a very rough outline of my mind set about all of this.

• I am agnostic, I don't belive in God because no one is able to "prove" to me that he exists
• I do not belive in an after life
• I don't belive in Adam and Eve being the first humans
• I do feel that religion is good. It helps many people feel a sense of community which is a necessity for human well being.
• It is time the church realized that following what the bible preaches needs to be seperated from the history it speaks.
• I have the inate ability to ramble forever

If anyone would like to question what I have said I would be more then willing to discuss it. Maybe I will learn something new that will alter how I feel, mabey I won't. But I am always willing to see how others feel about this.

 

[LoudMusic]

Originally posted by higgimonster
LoudMusic,
I just finished reading that novel of a post . It sounds like you know what you want to believe. I feel that if someone blindly believes in what their church says and never questions themselves regarding their belief that they are unable to say that they truly belive (couldn't find the right words here, bear with me ). On the other hand, if someone, such as yourself, has questioned their beliefs, spent time pondering what they really feel about God and religion, and then come to the conclusion that Christianity (or any other religion) is the right choice for them then they have made the right choice and there is no way to actually prove them wrong.

Rock on. I like your style. You shall fit in quite nicely with the Schumy-one and myself (:

"It sounds like you know what you want to believe." Perfect description. I know that X and Y are fact, and I accept them fully. But I have experienced Z ... and somehow it just doesn't fit. So I try to believe something exists there, but it conflicts with my base in Science-fact.

Hmmm ... this could be the cause of my incesant headaches.

(The following is a recital of last semesters philosophy class )
According to Karl Popper, a sound theory is one that has been questioned and riticuled and proven wrong and then modified to be true; from what you wrote you seem to have done this and made your choice to be christian.

Muhahhahhaaaa .... how did I know? (: Probably because society has programmed the youth to not think about these things. But college life says "THINK AND BE FREE!!!", so the topics usually don't come up until they're provoked. You've been provoked my dear higgimonster.

I have done the same thing myself, in a sense. I did not grow up in a Southern Baptist church, and I only went to sunday school up until 8th grade thus I don't have nearly as much experience or knowledge of the churches teachings. I went to a protastant(sp) church that focused less on the bible then it did on forming a community within the church and out into the surronding town. They were a very liberal church, not discriminating against any lifestyle or race. I respect that but I can't bring myself to believe what the bible says is true.

The Bible does give the best lesson on how one should conduct themselves during their stay on earth. You can't just follow it blindly, it desires to be questioned and proded. I follow the basic underlying themes laid out in the Bible (as far as I know at least). I don't kill, steal, ridicule, or cheat (except in video games). I do onto others as I would want others to do onto me. But I don't do these things so that I may please a God or go to heaven. I do them because that is how I should act. I do everything for myself (not selfishly but I mean that I don't do things so that God will smile upon me). I like to know that if I accomplish something major I did it myself, no God helped me out, it was my own perseverance.

"The Bible does give the best lesson on how one should conduct themselves during their stay on earth. You can't just follow it blindly, it desires to be questioned and proded."

I can not scream this loud enough.

"I like to know that if I accomplish something major I did it myself, no God helped me out, it was my own perseverance."

Well, for your sake, I hope you've made the right choice. Because if you're wrong, God will squash you like a bug (:

I have always been a scientificaly bound person. I need hard proof that something exists or is real in order for me to believe in it. It was this philosophy that sets up what I feel today. My general belief in religion is based upon the Church's inability to satisfy my views on the universe. (me personally, obviously this is not the case a lot of the time).

The following is a very rough outline of my mind set about all of this.

• I am agnostic, I don't belive in God because no one is able to "prove" to me that he exists
• I do not belive in an after life
• I don't belive in Adam and Eve being the first humans
• I do feel that religion is good. It helps many people feel a sense of community which is a necessity for human well being.
• It is time the church realized that following what the bible preaches needs to be seperated from the history it speaks.
• I have the inate ability to ramble forever

If anyone would like to question what I have said I would be more then willing to discuss it. Maybe I will learn something new that will alter how I feel, mabey I won't. But I am always willing to see how others feel about this.

Hmmmm ... yesssss ... we shall loose much sleep in our ramblings of questions.

~LoudMusic

 

[Pupik]

Evolution (VII GSR).

 

[sn00pie]

Human species: Mollecule Evoltuion XVCIXIIIXIVXIIVIXCIVICXII


[size=-4](find the hidden car)[/size]

 

[KevinPSX]

Macka (and others)--the Catholic Church has nothing against evolution. I personally voted for both because I believe that there is certainly evolution; but there was also a point at which God endowed our species with souls, making a huge leap from the monkeys before us. I don't think this necessarily had to involve an Adam and Eve scenario but could have risen from several groups of people in different places. Basically, I'd say it was mostly evolution but with two Godly influences: the creation of matter and the endowment of beings with souls. Pretty much everything else evolved.

Why is keeping up with the times so important? Does the will of the majority determine morality? Is something that was wrong some years ago right now? It's either right or wrong. It doesn't change. Sure, some things (slavery, for one) were wrong but permitted earlier in history. But its innate wrongness never changed.

I think that it is important, now more than ever, for the Catholic Church to support morals. I think that it is plainly wrong that many things which are accepted today (i.e. abortion) are very wrong.

 

[SandStorm]

We evolved from mammals after the dino's died out. The dino's evolved from those single celled organisms. I'm sorry, but that is just the way it is.

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by LoudMusic


Marshmellows are made from animals ... you BARBARIAN! I'll stick to roasted veggies thank you.

Heh, just kidding. But that's another interesting topic. Vegitarian, or carnivore. I would guess that there aren't more than a couple vegitarians at GTP.

~LoudMusic

If we weren't supposed to eat our furry little friends then why did God make them so tasty?

:cheeburga

Chalk one up for Darwin...

 

[LoudMusic]

Originally posted by vat_man


If we weren't supposed to eat our furry little friends then why did God make them so tasty?

:cheeburga

Chalk one up for Darwin...

I don't think vegetarianism has anything to do with God. Some people just choose to not eat animals.

If you want to get some seriously crazy information, research Jainism. They apply 'emotions' or senses to all things living. If anything has three or more senses, they do not harm it. This pretty much reduces their diet to carrots, potatos, and dirt. Interesting concept ...

~LoudMusic

 

[vat_man]

That was actually a lame attempt at a joke, and not relevant to the discussion - should have made that clear. Sorry.

I have numerous friends who are vegetarian and am aware there is usually no religious connections.

How on earth do you determine if something has senses - couldn't you argue that any form of vegetable has sight, since they pretty much need sunlight to grow and will turn toward the sun?

Oh well.

 

[sn00pie]

Originally posted by KevinPSX
Macka (and others)--the Catholic Church has nothing against evolution. I personally voted for both because I believe that there is certainly evolution; but there was also a point at which God endowed our species with souls, making a huge leap from the monkeys before us. I don't think this necessarily had to involve an Adam and Eve scenario but could have risen from several groups of people in different places. Basically, I'd say it was mostly evolution but with two Godly influences: the creation of matter and the endowment of beings with souls. Pretty much everything else evolved.

Why is keeping up with the times so important? Does the will of the majority determine morality? Is something that was wrong some years ago right now? It's either right or wrong. It doesn't change. Sure, some things (slavery, for one) were wrong but permitted earlier in history. But its innate wrongness never changed.

I think that it is important, now more than ever, for the Catholic Church to support morals. I think that it is plainly wrong that many things which are accepted today (i.e. abortion) are very wrong.

What's so wrong about abortion?

 

[LoudMusic]

Originally posted by vat_man
That was actually a lame attempt at a joke, and not relevant to the discussion - should have made that clear. Sorry.

I have numerous friends who are vegetarian and am aware there is usually no religious connections.

How on earth do you determine if something has senses - couldn't you argue that any form of vegetable has sight, since they pretty much need sunlight to grow and will turn toward the sun?

Oh well.

Yeah, thats pretty much what I said. It would be very difficult apply senses accurately to EVERYTHING. It's an interesting thought though ... don't harm anything and in the afterlife you will be treated with the highest regard.

~LoudMusic

 

[KevinPSX]

Originally posted by rufrgt_sn00pie2001
What's so wrong about abortion?

Well, I suppose if I pierced a hole at the base of your skull and drained your brain out or drowned you in a saline solution or ripped you apart it would be wrong.

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by cybergoober
…I'll go get the marshmallows…

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by Flip
if anyone wants the definitive answer, it should be known that life evolved on the earth, seeded by cosmic debris, over the millions of years we have evolved, we are no more important to the universe than common bacteria, this is the truth

you're right .....we also don't live in any special location in the universe

 

[Sage]

Ooh, i love these topics!!! At pgamers, the old forum i used to hang out in, there were heated discussions EVERY DAY about these kinds of topics, and it was just marvelous!

However, there doesn't seem to be much... err... resistance here. You see, at pgamers, i was used to much criticism, since it seemed like i was the only atheist there (everyone else was a die hard creationist).

neway, i'll go along with higgimonster and argue my point of view. ne takers?

btw, diet has nothing to do with religion (fyi, i'm not attacking anybody in particular, just pointing out something). I personally eat organic, all natural, and whole grain, and none are for religious reasons. (However, i refuse to go meatless!)

One thing that has buffedled me terribly is the way creationists view evolution... most will believe in micro-evolution, but are strongly opposed to macro-evolution. Why? There are very similiar, just that macro is on a larger scale and time frame than micro...