DFP - even better than Driving Force, pretty different, too

[Div is back]

If you lack FF, try checking if it's on STRONG.

By the way, if you always go offtrack it's maybe because you turn TOO MUCH.

Turning too much induces understeers, which leads to the wall quite quickly.

 

[kennythebomb]

TSUKUBA, turn one, right hand. I have a problem there. That is the kind of tight turn where I turn the wheel more than 200 degress, but the thing is I get lost in terms of where the wheels are pointing. you quickly learn it with 200 wheels, but this is something totally different. Of course, I hope I don't have to go lock to lock. But the lack of feedback from the sim car and the sim wheel means I get lost.

At least somebody admit, that you also HAD TO LEARN to use this wheel. THat would help. Because I am not a teenager who says this sucks, end of story. I am open for explanation. But telling me I don't know how to drive, c'mon, GT4 is close to the real thing, but not THAT close.

It can take days to get used to it. Not knowing where the wheels should go after that point, though, would mean you need to have a firmer grasp on the boundaries of the track.

 

[Div is back]

I bought the DFP yesterday, I'm totally in love, I just did the 1000km SUZUKA endurance race, it helps to pratice

 

[P379XL]

TSUKUBA, turn one, right hand. I have a problem there. That is the kind of tight turn where I turn the wheel more than 200 degress, but the thing is I get lost in terms of where the wheels are pointing. you quickly learn it with 200 wheels, but this is something totally different. Of course, I hope I don't have to go lock to lock. But the lack of feedback from the sim car and the sim wheel means I get lost.

At least somebody admit, that you also HAD TO LEARN to use this wheel. THat would help. Because I am not a teenager who says this sucks, end of story. I am open for explanation. But telling me I don't know how to drive, c'mon, GT4 is close to the real thing, but not THAT close.

Ive had mine 3-4 days now. I havent raced a race with it yet. Just driving on photo drive and stuff to get a good feel for it. That turn you describe doesnt take even half that amount of steering I believe. 200 degrees would pretty much make the car push hard to the outside of the track. Its pretty much hard to explain (atleast for me) how to work a steering wheel. Just practice with it for a while.

 

[panjandrum]

If you can't drive, put it in 200 degree mode, but then the DFP becomes useless.

I once tried to look this up but couldn't find out how to do it. In fact, according to Logitech you can force it into 900 degree mode, but not 200 degree mode.

How did you manage it? I wouldn't mind giving that mode a try, just for kicks.

 

[romanryunin]

Don't base your buy on this idiot though. 900 degree is better. I think this kid doesn't even drive yet.

I am a kid of 38 and have been driving since 18. All over Europe including Spain, Italy, Austria, Croatia, Germany, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, cities, traffic jams, autobahns, country roads, I have driven all kinds of cars. I like to drive fast. Crashed once heavily, that's it.

I have played PC driving sims for 7 years. Yes, never been one of those hotlappers, but if I can't use this wheel, it will be probably something I have to get used to, nothing to do with driving in RL or sim games.

 

[romanryunin]

Who's talking in an arrogance manner?

Stop creating fuzz when there's none to be created.

This is one of the best rated wheels on the market, and you say it sucks?

Take a driving lesson with your dad in a REAL car, then take out the DFP and another wheel, and compare.

I won't even argue anymore, this is pointless.

I am not a kid. I have owned about 7 game wheels. All fhe FF ones were fine. Except this one. That it is rated is no argument.

 

[Alfaholic]

Firstly, I don't have a DFP, I've got a DF. But even so, I know that 2.5 turns from lock to lock in a formula car is roughly 2 turns too many, so I would agree that the wheel in 900 degree mode might feel wrong in many of the racing cars. Rally cars often have a fast ratio too. But in addition, most rally and stock car racers put a bit of white or yellow tape around their wheel rim at the top (when the wheel is facing straight ahead) so they can easily see in their peripheral vision when the wheel is straight (it's hard not to notice if you have one complete turn of lock applied, but half a turn is trickier). The fact that they do that shows that not knowing where the front wheels are pointing is a problem even when racing a real car, if it has a slow rack. So, far from being an idiot, you actually share a driving malady with many rally gods.

I have not and will not buy a DFP for a few reason.
1) they've put effort into making the steering more realistic, but the pedals, in particular the brake pedal, which needs the most improvement on any electronic wheel set, once again get overlooked. That's half a job done, then.
2) it's damn expensive and I would think it needs a more substantial mounting platform than the unsecured plank my DF is currently bolted to. My DF stays where I want it to because I am hold it with both hands all the time. If I have to start feeding a 900deg wheel, my current setup will be inadequate.
3) All the various bugs, oversights and irritations about GT4, many of which I feel are inexcusable considering how long the game was in development, and infuriating given how much PD promoted their "attention to detail" in their promotional material (at least they detailed every Skyline in existence accurately) mean that I'd sooner spend my money on a different driving sim than on a GT4 accessory.

But that's just my opinion. And as for the guy whose opinion is that the DFP sucks, well he has a right, and the experience to feel that too.

 

[VIPFREAK]

I bought the DFP yesterday, I'm totally in love, I just did the 1000km SUZUKA endurance race, it helps to pratice

Did you use all 900 degrees because if not your getting ripped off dood, yo.

 

[Slicks]

I still hope I will somehow come to conclusion it is better than DF. I just cant seem to imagine that now.

I live in the Czech Republic and tonight I would sell it for 200 bucks. I got it today for about 230.

What currency is used in the Czech Republic? I am asking so I know how much it is in Canadian dollars.

 

[Jafo]

Listen, as of now, I feel awful. I know how to drive rreal cars and never ever have to worry in my real car, how much I should turn the wheel when taking a tight turn.

With all my FF wheels, I had never any problems as to find the right degree of steering.

It is problem with this wheel and it might be so REVOLUTIONARY< that I have to get used to it.

I definitely believe you can LEARN to use this wheel, but see no connection between ability to drive with a real wheel and drive with THIS wheel. Crossing hands or not.

Still you must admit that superfast race cars dont' turn their wheels as much as to make the driver change the position of hands.

I still hope I will get used to it. I just believed buying this wheel will be like swithing from fun I had with my DF to super fun. DIdnt happen.

The only problem I had with DFP was in the Extreme Hall, Dirt & Snow events. With it set at 900, I could not counter steer fast enough. Switching the DFP to 200 degree, "select + R3 + right paddle" made these events a lot more fun.

However, trying to use the 200 degree mode on pavement will result in the wheel trying to jump oot of your hands at any speed above 90mph. To switch it back to 900, just repeat the above bottons.

 

[Zardoz]

...I've never turned my DFP more than 135 degrees on any course, and even that's probably too much...

Exactly, which begs the question: Why 900-degree steering?

I'm sorry, but I just can't come to any other conclusion than it being a marketing gimmick.

 

[Duke]

The only problem I had with DFP was in the Extreme Hall, Dirt & Snow events.

I've only run the Chamonix ice racing license tests, not the actual races; but I thought this too while doing the earlier snow test. After practicing at Chamonix for the IA license there, I realized that it was too much throttle that was making countersteering such an issue. I paid very careful attention to my right foot control and found I barely had to countersteer, I didn't have to wall ride at all, and I got gold with a healthy margin. Kind of surprised myself, in fact.

 

[romanryunin]

Some of you really need to work on your manners. Calling someone an idiot because they don't happen to like the same product you do is just plain rude.

I think you should just use the DFP for a while. I too had problems with it at first, especially since I shift manually using the stick and the 900 degree rotation means that in city courses I have often need both hands on the wheel. For most vehicles, that is very realistic of course, even if it is a little more difficult.

After a couple of days adjustment to the DFP I couldn't imagine using anything else. The level of realism it produces is astonishing. Cars feel lighter or heavier as appropriate to the model. Steering is more or less difficult based on tire compound. You can feel, through the wheel, if you're running over something with the left or right side of the car, and whether you are doing it with the front or rear wheels. You can feel when the car starts to lift while topping a rise! You can feel when the rear of the car starts to break loose and come around on you (very handy with the Yellowbird etc.)

Despite the problems the wheel has (like the pedal bug, the inability to program the butterfly switches, and truly horrible button placement - they are way to hard to reach while actually driving), it does make the whole experience much more immersive.

You can go into the options for the wheel and turn the feedback down to mild, turn the adaptive steering and the power assist ON, and learn to use it that way first (it is much easier to use that way). Once I got used to it I turned the adaptive steering back off and the feedback to strong, and prefer it that way now, but in the beginning I needed those aids to adapt to the wheel.

Keep it a few days and you'll probably start to love it!

This is what I call an INTELLIGENT reply. Thank you very much, I somehow hoped I would learn to use it. I hated the noise and resistance with my old PC MOMO wheel at the beginning and complained. I got used to it, but it took a couple of days.

Otherwise, most of the PROS you mention is the same thing you get from the original DF wheel that I have had longer. But you are firht, this wheel seems to go into details even more.

Everyone thinkiing to buy this DFP - don't get discouraged by my first impressions. But you might have to adapt to it. If you are used to 200 degree FF wheels.

 

[romanryunin]

Thank you guys for all your ideas.

Including the kid who called me an idiot.

That reminds me of something ppl on the web forums could ponder.

When somebody calls you an idiot or anything, don't read that directly.

Read what is beyond the words. Most ppl read information directly. It is better to translate. YOu are an idiot means something like : "I am afraid you might not be the best sim driver in the world. And THAT pisses me off, man" .

Cheers!

 

[romanryunin]

I needed your tips. I have just tried to turn a little bit less now and it works. I could have found out myself but it would take me more time. With your tips I learned quicker.

So it seems I will get along with the wheel after all. And for rally tracks I will turn it to 200 degrees or use my old DF.

 

[Gabkicks]

anyone who really apreciates the wheel doesnt use it primarily for gt4. I hardly ever play gt4. i spend most of my time using it on the PC with Richard Burns Rally and Live For Speed. Most of the posts in this thread are suprizingly retarded.

 

[Moloch_horridus]

Exactly, which begs the question: Why 900-degree steering?

Because it is more realistic. Most rl production car racing would rarely use the full steering range available - usually full lock is only used when you egt into trouble and then it is often useless anyway. But the bit you do use is a much better simulation. Simple really.

I am not surprized that the original poster had so much touble - if you use 200º wheels for 7 years then wtf do you expect when you change to 900º - exactly the same? Now that would be pointless.

A question for those that switch to 200º for rallies - did you also switch for the rally license tests?

 

[romanryunin]

You may laugh at me how quickly I change my ideas, but let's just say I have been investigating and testing and here are my tonight's final thoughts:

I have been trying DFP only for a couple of hours, that is true.

I reached my silver medal in Nurburgring lap in License I A with it, so DFP improved my lap time by about 10 sec.

so definitely the lap times with it would be at least as good as the ones I have with DF - i also sorted out the problem with tight corners and found a way how to hold the wheel so I know where the top of the wheel is- I mean I keep on of my hands at 9 or 3 o clock to have a reference point.


What I found really surprising is that doing that lap seemed much easier than with DF. With DF you have to concentrate, all the time, pointing the small range wheel exactly and you easily lose the track. With 900 DFP it is easier to stay in the middle of the road or wherever you want to be.

I switched back to DF to see how it would feel compared to DFP again.

It definitely feels cheaper. You don't have much margin for errors. But strangely , that makes the cheap wheel more fun to drive to me. Which definitely does not mean DF is better than DFP.

If things were just like this, I would probably even prefer DFP being more realistic, more precise and more stable.

But when I tried Special Licence test with Audi R8 at Infineon, DFP connected with this super fast beast feels awfully resistant to my hands. Even with mild force feedback setting. Precise, but feels like dragging your feet through mud. While DF is quick in response, willing, just shaking too much. Again, easier to make a mistake with, but I feel closer to the car and the road with it. The feedback is very simple but clear. with DFP the feedback is always as if the wheel was telling me Try harder to turn, I am so heavy... If DFP had the same FF responses like DF minus that stupid DF shaking, it would be the solution for me.

I will see in the next days. It might be a matter of personal feelings. They are just wheels, but as GT4 is such a fantastic game, I have to choose what will best suit the way I feel about the steering.

 

[R5Turbo2]

The only problem I had with DFP was in the Extreme Hall, Dirt & Snow events. With it set at 900, I could not counter steer fast enough.

The reason why many people are in trouble with the 900 mode is because they were never taught how to use a steering wheel properly. Not knowing does not mean that you are an idiot, a retarded or whatever. As I said in a previous post I had no idea what steering meant until the day I went to a rally driving school and was told how this should be done. So I know that everyone believe they know, but in fact they don't know, I've been there before.

I am working on something to explain this technique, I started taking pictures shooting some videos and making GT4 replay videos. It takes time, and I don't have that much spare time, sorry. This will also take "a couple" of megs, so I will have to figure out how to make this accessible to everyone on this forum. If anyone can help let me know.

For those who haven't seen this video I recommend watching "Climb Dance". You will see how Ari Vatanen is using the steering to make his way to the top of Pikes Peak. You can also watch Hans Joachim Stuck going around the Ring in an M3 GTR (there's a link to this video on this forum somewhere), look at how relaxed he his at the wheel. He does not need to steer like crazy, but sure is quick when adjustments are needed. Listening to the engine sound (well gearbox actually) is also very interesting, you can tell when he gets back on the gas and how strong.

Needless to say that I have a DFP, I've been waiting for that wheel since GT1. Why ? Because I'm so used to real cars that I'm in trouble with usual "gaming" wheels. If you're playing GT4 just like any other game and your goal is to gold everything, win every race and every championship, then you may not feel that a DFP is worth it. If you're, like me, into GT4 because you can't afford to do it in real life as often as you would like to, then a DFP is priceless.

Whichever way you enjoy GT4, enjoy.

PhM

 

[Moloch_horridus]

A beast like the R8 should be difficult and heavy to turn. 13.5 x 18 inch wheels with race tyres are going to fight back - power assisted steering or not. Driving race cars is hard work and if anything I would guess that the ff is often not strong enough.

RL feedback when rallying production cars can be enough to break fingers and thumbs, I doubt that the DFP will ever manage that.

 

[futuredrifter]

A beast like the R8 should be difficult and heavy to turn. 13.5 x 18 inch wheels with race tyres are going to fight back - power assisted steering or not. Driving race cars is hard work and if anything I would guess that the ff is often not strong enough.

RL feedback when rallying production cars can be enough to break fingers and thumbs, I doubt that the DFP will ever manage that.

TRUE TRUE, people just have no idea how real racing feels like and i have only had a taste.

 

[VyPeR]

Well,the DFP just rocks in my opinion. I have a lot of fun using it, especially on La Sarthe, its just a blast. The DFP is for some people, and for others, its not. I still use the DS2 also of course. My only prob with the DFP is that I need a comfortable stand for it.

 

[R5Turbo2]

TRUE TRUE, people just have no idea how real racing feels like and i have only had a taste.

Well you can get an idea of how intense and exhausting racing can be. Go for some 125cc shifter go-karts sessions, the steering is tough, the braking is awesome, accelerations are wild, you've constantly got to fight for grip, and the Gs you take will leave nice bruises on your sides. I love these

PhM

 

[Syntax error]

romanryunin, u must have an inordinate amount of difficulty with GT4, i remeber you havein a winge on RSC forum about there being too much understeer as well.

mate all i have to say on this topic is that you have to get a feel for the charecteristics of the wheel and in turn how each car responds to your input. all 700 cars handle diferently and require different levels of turning and handleing.

there should not be a need to turn the wheel more than 45 degrees in any direction (even on the rally stages). the 900 degrees allows for more acurate input than a 200 degree wheel.

yeah you probably wont get full lock on the wheel, unless you have a nasty off, but thats not the point of using the entire 900 degrees.

as to that winge in that other thread about understeer being to prominant in all cars in GT4, well it's just the same in real life with all cars......


I would like to point out that i do use a DFP and i find it to bring an entirely new element to the game that i didn't feel when i borrowed my mate old DF wheel.

 

[elctrk!]

in real life the audi r8 is supposed to be easy to drive as race cars are concerned.. the computer systems do must of the driving from what i heard. and i wouldnt think the steering fights back much

 

[Zardoz]

A beast like the R8 should be difficult and heavy to turn. 13.5 x 18 inch wheels with race tyres are going to fight back - power assisted steering or not. Driving race cars is hard work and if anything I would guess that the ff is often not strong enough.

No way. Come on, we've all seen many in-cockpit views of race cars, including the R8. None of them appear to be "difficult and heavy to turn". If they are, then how do the drivers' arms hold out for two to three hours at a stint?

 

[Moloch_horridus]

Well it's all relative I suppose - the post I was replying to said that the R8 "feels awfully resistant to my hands". I have done the test referred to and did not think that the resistance was anything special. Perhaps the R8 does have lighter steering than GT - you learn something new every day.

 

[s12ken]

Firstly, the old R8's don't have fly-by-wire yet.... those gigantic wheels ARE supposed to fight back and even tho it's supposed to be light, it doesn't make it any easier to drive.

For the thread starter:

Ignore the immature ranting of some of the members here, you get used to getting flamed for no obvious reason.

What some of the senior members are saying is true, i've raced go-karts before and have never actually had to use all 900 degrees of rotation, even on a real car, but racing is REALLY demanding, make small but quick and precise adjustments on the wheel, putting a center marker is really helpful as you tend to forget where the hell your car's wheels are pointed. Get a feel for the wheel first, i may not have used a DFP yet, but coming from playing arcade racers like Initial D (all three versions, ver 3 kicks ass!) and Maximum Tune 1 and 2 (the only game i know that has a 6 speed H gate shifter, FF is excellent with those games and even if the wheels turn a full 2.5 lock to lock, i never had to use them, (save for Initial D on Akagi). Give it time, you can't expect to be a Schumacher in a day when given a new car right? Same concept. You can't really master something new unless you've tried and failed.

 

[Duke]

One other solution for the excessive kicking is to turn off the rumble function for the Player 1 DS2, even though you are not using the DS2. I haven't experienced the trouble myself but this comes from Werner Winkels, an occasional poster who knows an awful lot about customizing and fabricating wheels and pedals.