Different approach and ideas towards sim racing?

[jacksmith]

The other day I downloaded the NFS shift demo from PS store and to be honest I wasn't thrilled by it but there were few things I noticed which should be highlighted.

A-The vibration in the wheel and the cars in NFS shift are more unstable when driving on high speed.For example the car moves a lot as I found out in a commercial simulator in the V8 supercars.

B-You can feel the ferocious nature and brutality of speed a lot in NFS shift.

C-And finally the noise,my word its spellbinding.

Now I am not asking for the same old way of including this things in GT its all upto PD but what I am saying is that there is a big difference in the way companies like PD,TURN10,EA and others are approaching sim racing.

PD-As we all know they are perfectionists and wouldn't compromise on quality and this approach has both good and bad sides.We get the best looking cars but after sucking everything out of the PS3 not much room is left for other important things as being discussed in other threads and I am saying this from previous experience as GT5 still in the pipeline.This approach is stubborn(like an old samurai who keeps sharpening his sword without a care in the world) and a bit selfish as KAZ and company are deciding what they want in GT and not the fans.I know its his game but the people who are fans over a decade should get a say.

Second thing is the real driving simulator.If they call and want it to be the real driving simulator then throw away anything not possible in real life.There are no invisible walls or slowing down penalties(I know GT5 might fix this).GT is nowhere near a real driving simulator,its not immune to all the arcade and Sony pressure to make it look like a profitable game and if they want to call it the real driving simulator then they should take out all the fancy and arcade stuff out of it and leave a pure true to the reality simulator.

In the end I believe PD wants to create a true driving exerience but can't escape the clutches of Sony and keeps stuffing it with features like the REWIND.

Turn10-Now there approach is simple they recognize the market and deliver what people want,on time release,plenty of cars,customization of cars and online play but they know that only a small percentage of people are for hardcore simulation and thats why they can't care less for physics and they have put all the their effort in cosmetics department of the game.All the simulation fans will get their fix from GT or other PC sims.This approach is all about money making.

EA-They are a big company with several games coming out of their studios and their approach is to maximize profits and conceive games after every few months.They lack dedication and are full of appeal.They can do some good stuff if they take racing sims seriously.

So in the end the reason for this thread is that I have been reading about Gt,Forza,Nfs and others and people talk about things wrong with these games or good about these games but we all need to stop thinking about it and think in a different way and that is about the people and organisations creating these games and their are various factors which contribute to the final product,its not that they don't want to achieve the perfect simulation but its that they can't beacuse their hands are tied by the parent companies who only care about sales and only sales and not about THE PASSION OF RACING AND DRIVING.

Goodbye,sorry for my english.

 

[pLiDeX]

NFS Shift it's not a simulator, the handling of the cars is very far from being realistic

 

[ralph89]

I think some arcade stuff should stay in the series. There are only small percentage of people do hardcore sim, but if they remove the arcadey stuff it wouldn't appeal to younger audience, and that means less profits for Sony / PD. I think PD made a great job by splitting standard physics and Pro physics in GT5 prologue. This little option separates hardcore sim racer to casual gamer, but in my opinion they should strengthen the pro physics even more, then make the standard physics easy as possible just like GT1 and GT2, so casual gamer can just enjoy without getting frustrated by it if they are used to arcade games, and at the same time they are having a blast.

Nice thread by the way 👍

 

[AERO_HDT]

Unfortunately, the business of entertainment and making games has rather little to do with passion anymore and it's all about the rate of return.

Who do you think pays the PD staff? Certainly not the fans.

 

[balang_479]

Unfortunately, the business of entertainment and making games has rather little to do with passion anymore and it's all about the rate of return.

Who do you think pays the PD staff? Certainly not the fans.

Well yes, they do... i pay money for the game no? i will buy DLC if it comes out no? i may buy GT merchandise if there is any no?

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Do you know what i think would happen fellas ?, as mentioned before if GT5 is made from the ground up entirely in real time, with the choice of manipulating the weather, the GT games would become PDs arcade games for the masses over night.Maybe i'm slightly wrong here.Believe me real time effects change everything in a game.

 

[Seismica]

PD-As we all know they are perfectionists and wouldn't compromise on quality and this approach has both good and bad sides.We get the best looking cars but after sucking everything out of the PS3 not much room is left for other important things as being discussed in other threads and I am saying this from previous experience as GT5 still in the pipeline.This approach is stubborn(like an old samurai who keeps sharpening his sword without a care in the world) and a bit selfish as KAZ and company are deciding what they want in GT and not the fans.I know its his game but the people who are fans over a decade should get a say.

So in the end the reason for this thread is that I have been reading about Gt,Forza,Nfs and others and people talk about things wrong with these games or good about these games but we all need to stop thinking about it and think in a different way and that is about the people and organisations creating these games and their are various factors which contribute to the final product,its not that they don't want to achieve the perfect simulation but its that they can't beacuse their hands are tied by the parent companies who only care about sales and only sales and not about THE PASSION OF RACING AND DRIVING.

1) Being stubborn and making the game according to their vision is about Passion not sales. If the game is customer led it will not be about the passion anymore, it will be about implementing anything and everything to satisfy the customers to get more sales. I like the way PD are doing it. (p.s. they do listen to fans, explain why they went back and re-did their damage model after the first demonstration)

2) Their hands are only loosely tied by Sony. How many other publishers let their developers spend almost 6 years creating a game? Microsoft rushed Turn10 and you see what happened with Forza 3, it was a disappointment in the eyes of many (Although sitll an excellent game, Turn10 could have done much better if they had been given more time...)

 

[Exorcet]

Turn10-Now there approach is simple they recognize the market and deliver what people want,on time release,plenty of cars,customization of cars and online play but they know that only a small percentage of people are for hardcore simulation and that's why they can't care less for physics and they have put all the their effort in cosmetics department of the game.All the simulation fans will get their fix from GT or other PC sims.This approach is all about money making.

I strongly disagree, Forza deserves the title Real Driving Simulator as much as GT. Their marketing works as far as I'm concerned. All I see out of PD is graphics, a virtually worthless component of the game (for the most part). Forza seems to know enough to work on the entire package. That's why I'm getting it despite being a GT fan and hardcore sim fan (I actually consider Forza and GT semi sims anyway, they are not on the level of PC sims, barring GT5 and Forza 3 which may be since I haven't played them).

Of course, my opinion is pending on my purchase and experience with the game.

As for GT, limiting the game to only things possible in real life does nothing to enhance the value of its simulation and can hinder it as a part of automotive history and culture.

 

[jedaye]

GT5 is all about realism. As long as Kaz is at the helm, it won't change.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

The other day I downloaded the NFS shift demo from PS store and to be honest I wasn't thrilled by it but there were few things I noticed which should be highlighted.

A-The vibration in the wheel and the cars in NFS shift are more unstable when driving on high speed.For example the car moves a lot as I found out in a commercial simulator in the V8 supercars.

B-You can feel the ferocious nature and brutality of speed a lot in NFS shift.

C-And finally the noise,my word its spellbinding.

Now I am not asking for the same old way of including this things in GT its all upto PD but what I am saying is that there is a big difference in the way companies like PD,TURN10,EA and others are approaching sim racing.

PD-As we all know they are perfectionists and wouldn't compromise on quality and this approach has both good and bad sides.We get the best looking cars but after sucking everything out of the PS3 not much room is left for other important things as being discussed in other threads and I am saying this from previous experience as GT5 still in the pipeline.This approach is stubborn(like an old samurai who keeps sharpening his sword without a care in the world) and a bit selfish as KAZ and company are deciding what they want in GT and not the fans.I know its his game but the people who are fans over a decade should get a say.

Second thing is the real driving simulator.If they call and want it to be the real driving simulator then throw away anything not possible in real life.There are no invisible walls or slowing down penalties(I know GT5 might fix this).GT is nowhere near a real driving simulator,its not immune to all the arcade and Sony pressure to make it look like a profitable game and if they want to call it the real driving simulator then they should take out all the fancy and arcade stuff out of it and leave a pure true to the reality simulator.

In the end I believe PD wants to create a true driving exerience but can't escape the clutches of Sony and keeps stuffing it with features like the REWIND.

Turn10-Now there approach is simple they recognize the market and deliver what people want,on time release,plenty of cars,customization of cars and online play but they know that only a small percentage of people are for hardcore simulation and thats why they can't care less for physics and they have put all the their effort in cosmetics department of the game.All the simulation fans will get their fix from GT or other PC sims.This approach is all about money making.

EA-They are a big company with several games coming out of their studios and their approach is to maximize profits and conceive games after every few months.They lack dedication and are full of appeal.They can do some good stuff if they take racing sims seriously.

So in the end the reason for this thread is that I have been reading about Gt,Forza,Nfs and others and people talk about things wrong with these games or good about these games but we all need to stop thinking about it and think in a different way and that is about the people and organisations creating these games and their are various factors which contribute to the final product,its not that they don't want to achieve the perfect simulation but its that they can't beacuse their hands are tied by the parent companies who only care about sales and only sales and not about THE PASSION OF RACING AND DRIVING.

Goodbye,sorry for my english.

I have to agree with your assessment.

Kaz's GT series is still the best car-racing game in my book and is so because
of just what you mention: THE PASSION OF RACING AND DRIVING.

Sadly, he is possibly the last bastion of this priceless commodity in not just the racing genre but all of gaming.

The big concern as you describe, is how long can this continue under the constant pressure of the Sony corporate influence.

For that very reason as I've said before I would like to see Kaz part ways with Sony. However the odds of that happening now are probably about the same as me winning the Mega millions lottery.

How long can his passion for the game take precedence over the time and money priorities of the Big Sony Corporate machine?

I guess time will tell.

 

[ItsHim]

As for GT, limiting the game to only things possible in real life does nothing to enhance the value of its simulation and can hinder it as a part of automotive history and culture.

I can remember as a little kid, I got terribly upset if one of my mates wanted to play with cars the wrong scale compared to the ones already in place. I couldn't stand the fact that a Beetle would be the same size as a lorry, it was just wrong.

Can't say I have changed much in that respect over the years. I feel you should not treat cars the way T10 does, with all that powertrain swapping business and painting Mona Lisas on Astons.

But that's just me, and it's a good thing we are living in such decadent times that all the T10s, PDs and EAs can make enough profit out of their games that they can offer a variety of different approaches to the racing/driving/sim genre. Happy times indeed.

 

[Exorcet]

I can remember as a little kid, I got terribly upset if one of my mates wanted to play with cars the wrong scale compared to the ones already in place. I couldn't stand the fact that a Beetle would be the same size as a lorry, it was just wrong.

Can't say I have changed much in that respect over the years. I feel you should not treat cars the way T10 does, with all that powertrain swapping business and painting Mona Lisas on Astons.

Can't say I don't know how you feel. I've known a bit about aviation since I was 5 years old. It bothered me whenever someone got something wrong on the subject. I remember the first time I watched Top Gun, I complained that the the "MiG's" were F-5's. Likewise, I always tried to stop my brother from painting his models unrealistically.

In GT, I was apposed to adding anything that wasn't strictly possible in real life, I had the very mistaken idea that a simulator never let one bend reality. Fortunately, I wised up and discarded that notion, there's plenty of room for imagination in sims.

People don't want rewind, even if it could help people learn to drive, only because they don't see it fit for a sim to do anything but replicate driving, ignoring its potential as a training tool.

People say bikes don't belong in GT, yet were they included, a simple no/separate bike option would keep things in order. Do I want to see cars and bikes go head to head? Not in a race, it doesn't happen. Would I like to see an advanced simulation where I can compare cars and bikes to further my learning? Of course.

Turn10's concepts don't really detract from the simulation, it's still there and still strong, and you don't have to deal with any of it if you don't want to (and it's not even unrealistic really, considering that you can do virtually anything to a car with enough resources).

But I can agree with your last paragraph. Diversity and competition bring out the best.

 

[pLiDeX]

the thing with the bikes is that they could add more cars with the time spent making the bikes (or they could release the game earlier xD), although they are easier to do, i prefer 5 more cars rather than 30 bikes

 

[chepe371]

Does anyone remember the Simpsons episode, where Homer is put in charge of designing the "average Joe's" car, according to what the everyday driver needs\wants?

I'm all for suggestions and stuff, but at the end of the day, they have 20 years experience designing games for a reason, they're good at it.

Really good at it, and PD, has yet to fail no matter who says what about GT4. Gran Turismo is the biggest selling PS franchise.

So i wouldn't call it selfish, maybe they are listening to the droves of "Well what i would do..." but maybe they just don't agree, i trust in Kaz, it's for our own good, whatever decisions they make.

 

[Exorcet]

the thing with the bikes is that they could add more cars with the time spent making the bikes (or they could release the game earlier xD), although they are easier to do, i prefer 5 more cars rather than 30 bikes

I do myself too, I was really just taking a stance against people saying "Bikes don't belong in GT" and "Bikes in GT will kill TT (There was a TT game even coming?)"I want the game out ASAP.

Or at least I did. I just tried Forza 3. Turn 10 is the undisputed king of console racing, nothing comes close, and there is no projected threat until March 2010. The game is a masterpiece, they got all the essentials. The physics are superb, and the racing is tense. Just by driving the demo track, I got to see the aggressiveness of the AI and the atmosphere of competition they provide. One mistake can ruin your race, you have to play hard to keep up. The AI still isn't human, within a few minutes I found them braking unnecessarily and going too slow through some turns, but they one of the better AI's I've seen. They take note of you, but they don't give you more room than you need. They can play rough, but they only outright rammed me once or twice.

It was actually very interesting when I was involved in a wreck in the first 10 seconds of the race, and had my car heavily damaged. The leaders pulled away, and I was left crippled trying to catch the other damaged cars. It felt like a real race.

I also tried rewind, which is a brilliant concept in need of some refinement. The only problem with it is that it only goes to specific points instead of precise user selected locations/times. However, it's still one of the best tool for learning a corner I've ever seen. I had limitless chances to try a corner and learn the best line. I could even rewind through sticky situations with the AI and learn to handle traffic.

If there is one flaw with Forza, it's the damage. It's too forgiving. I had everything set to simulation/max difficulty from race one. However, I survived quite a few horrific crashes, which was disappointing. But I'm still getting the game. GT5 can take its time now, as there's something quite good to hold me over.

Like I said, Forza isn't an upstart aiming for second place. They're competing with the best. As far as I'm concerned, they're in the lead right now.