Different grade of tires: your experiences and opinions

[phil_75]

Yay! In a debate regarding the capabilities of lower grade tires on stock cars in-game versus their real world counterparts, let's post a video of a max tuned Veyron on the highest grade tires allowable to prove a point! This one may as well have been posted:

Wow! Just wow!

Ok i'm clearly going to have to spell it out aren't i?

Read carefully : "I am talking about the rate of acceleration."

You then procede to post how your McLarens top speed is correct.

I mean, WTF?

So i post a vid of a Veyron hitting 613kmh, doesn't matter what tune it has, the point is it would never reach that speed in real life no matter what tune.
It is still a Veyron and still adheres to the laws of the real world.
My point here being wind resistance (which you say is modelled correctly) would stop it not to mention cooling etc but my point is wind resistance.

So, im not arguing about the top speed of cars but, and take note this time, the rate at which it reaches that speed is off (especially after 100mph).

And i will add: In my opinion.

Sorry guys for this clutter!

 

[Greycap]

The whole self-preserving-real-world-driving versus it's-just-a-video-game-it-can't-hurt-you-so-push-the-limit topic has been discussed ad infinitum and I think when all variables are equal, the merits of each are likely to balance each other out.

I agree, but only when the real driver is a race driver who can put most of the fear aside and just drive the wheels off the car. In the case of a "normal person" such as you or me, or the journalist John Doe, even if the car was recreated perfectly in the game the real life lap would be slower.

Regarding equal variables; a Volvo 940 is not a Volvo 240 and the Volvo 240 in the game may not be represented correctly to begin with.

It's not the exact same but it's close enough - the same size, the same weight distribution (needs full weight reduction and then ballast in the game as PD got it very wrong for the third time in a row), the same drivetrain configuration, both with a solid rear axle, and I actually own a 240 too and under the different sheetmetal they're pretty much the same car.

But I still maintain my opinion that something in the Comfort Hards is wrong, perhaps not so much in the grip department but in the behaviour. I've driven twisty backroads at 100+ km/h and not once have the tyres made any sound that could have been audible inside the car but similar driving in the game not only causes some serious screeching, it also feels like the tyres are half an inch off the road. It simply doesn't feel right, CM and CS feel a lot more like real tyres.

 

[Nooboogering]

The "it matches real life laptimes" theory is also off because of the lack of any wind resistance being modelled.

Cars seem fairly accurate upto around 60mph but then they just keep accelerating like there is no wind resistance at all.

Its comical in some cars how fast they accelerate beyond 100mph.

I think a tyre between CM & CS with a 10 - 15% power reduction would be good to try.

Edit, tried it on the Focus ST it feels better, there's less of that unnatural "hardness" feeling to the tyres with CMs and the power drop keeps it more inline with real life times at 10%.
Just did a 1.02.4 on Goodwood which is the closest i've got yet to matching that real life 1.02.13.

Give it a try see what you guys think to it.

There is a thread where it shows how the ride height lowers when a car is at high speed, possibly simulating the reaction of wind resistance. And to get an accurate figure for wind resistance on any car, the developer will have to take every car to a race track.....

 

[TexRex]

"I am talking about the rate of acceleration."

So was I. I stated that said McLaren was consistently hitting 201 (clearly not its limit when you consider what comes next...) but got the bump to 217 with the aid of a draft. It was accelerating to 201 under its own power and, when this resistance that apparently was never there couldn't possibly have been alleviated, it was able to accelerate to 217.
Quote my claim that either of those numbers is correct and I'll cease my contributions [be they to the benefit or the detriment] to this forum. Forum. Not the thread--the forum. I only stated that those numbers were reached.
I'm not saying anything here with matter-of-fact conviction and I've even gone so far as to question my own beliefs regarding the accuracy of tire grip deficit. (I've never driven a GT-R and couldn't fathom the amount of grip it had available on CS so I dropped to CM.) However, wouldn't increased velocity with an apparent reduction in resistance imply the existence of said resistance? And provided there is the existence of said resistance--coupled with the fact that any car must accelerate to reach any velocity--there must be acceleration with resistance? (However accurate or inaccurate it may be.)
Having said all that; I re-read the rest (I got stuck on the whole lack-of-resistance thing) of your statement and I agree with other aspects. A large number of cars in the game are overpowered--even the GT-R without an oil change required further reduction to match its real counterpart. I also noted the 60mph figure you mentioned and its relation to when the benefits of downforce on the LMPs and whatnot can be perceived...so there's something to that as well.

 

[Johnnypenso]

There is a thread where it shows how the ride height lowers when a car is at high speed, possibly simulating the reaction of wind resistance. And to get an accurate figure for wind resistance on any car, the developer will have to take every car to a race track.....

The top speed of many cars, especially supercars, is well known.
Also, you could easily make a calculation of drag coefficients and HP to come up with a "close enough" figure.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

PD used CH tire for Toyota 86 GT Asian Championship, and I think CH is the correct tire for real life stock factory tire. The early 86 lap record at Tsukuba was 1:11s by Keiichi Tsuchiya, later on, "the professor' Nakaya Akihiko drove a MT 86 with optional LSD to 1:09s, this should be attainable on CH tire. The professor himself said the stock tire is 'economic' tire similar to Prius tires

 

[Nooboogering]

The top speed of many cars, especially supercars, is well known.
Also, you could easily make a calculation of drag coefficients and HP to come up with a "close enough" figure.

So, if that is so, then you could possibly do the same with tyres and get a fair 'close enough' figure. So it's back to numbers being crunched and it what manner.
How much better would the tyre simulation be if they did an account for tyre pressures?

 

[Johnnypenso]

So, if that is so, then you could possibly do the same with tyres and get a fair 'close enough' figure. So it's back to numbers being crunched and it what manner.
How much better would the tyre simulation be if they did an account for tyre pressures?

I don't know if it's been tested in GT6, but I know in GT5 extensive testing was done and it was proven that lateral g difference between tire grades was a straight multiplier. The tire model could use a lot of work in the GT series but it's not likely to happen. They'll keep it fairly simple because the game isn't really directed at the sim racing audience that would really appreciate and be able to use the more refined elements of tire modeling. It's mainly directed at casual users who could care less and just slap soft tires on everything and go racing.

 

[Nooboogering]

I don't know if it's been tested in GT6, but I know in GT5 extensive testing was done and it was proven that lateral g difference between tire grades was a straight multiplier. The tire model could use a lot of work in the GT series but it's not likely to happen. They'll keep it fairly simple because the game isn't really directed at the sim racing audience that would really appreciate and be able to use the more refined elements of tire modeling. It's mainly directed at casual users who could care less and just slap soft tires on everything and go racing.

I suppose if they do like the basic view on car settings, then instead of a tyre gauge, they can use a counter going from 1 to 5. Sure, it's not meticulous but it will be an engaging tool to work with the suspension settings.

 

[Zer0]

The tire model could use a lot of work in the GT series but it's not likely to happen. They'll keep it fairly simple because the game isn't really directed at the sim racing audience that would really appreciate and be able to use the more refined elements of tire modeling. It's mainly directed at casual users who could care less and just slap soft tires on everything and go racing.

 

[Eyes Fried Open]

I suppose if they do like the basic view on car settings, then instead of a tyre gauge, they can use a counter going from 1 to 5. Sure, it's not meticulous but it will be an engaging tool to work with the suspension settings.

They cant even get suspension settings right. They need to get what they already have working in a cohesive package first, before attempting to add more variables.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't believe stuff based on marketing hype, I believe what I see with my own eyes. Maybe it'll change in the future but at this point, GT's tire model is very simplistic and leaves a lot to be desired. PS4 opens up a world of computing power they could only dream about before and opens the doors for new possibilities. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[amar212]

Johnny, what is your personal setup for playing GT?

What are the settings you are using in career modes and ones for online racing? Also, what is the input device (peripheral) you are using to play?

Also, what are the other driving games you are actively playing for past 2-3 years?

 

[Zer0]

I don't believe stuff based on marketing hype, I believe what I see with my own eyes. Maybe it'll change in the future but at this point, GT's tire model is very simplistic and leaves a lot to be desired. PS4 opens up a world of computing power they could only dream about before and opens the doors for new possibilities. I'll believe it when I see it.

I just wanted to expose the semi-official info about the subject. Only a negative opinion presented as a fact could be misleading.

 

[TexRex]

I just wanted to expose the semi-official info about the subject. Only a negative opinion presented as a fact could be misleading.

But it's second-hand information published 8 months ago that, if I remember correctly, was posted on a little website/forum. It's something nifty to either take forever to include or not end up including at all.

 

[Zer0]

But it's second-hand information published 8 months ago that, if I remember correctly, was posted on a little website/forum. It's something nifty to either take forever to include or not end up including at all.

I don't remember this info about tyre makers being published in GTP, I guess you mean other GTChannel video related to the GPS only.

Anyway the info came from the chief engineer of Toyota, he has been working side to side with PD since more than five years to acomplish all the GPS features of GT6. He has more credibility than any forum member.

And regarding if it take forever or not, as the quote said, is something for the future and I was replying to something that "it's not likely to happen" (future).

 

[Nooboogering]

Excuse
this post

 

[Nooboogering]

I don't believe stuff based on marketing hype, I believe what I see with my own eyes. Maybe it'll change in the future but at this point, GT's tire model is very simplistic and leaves a lot to be desired. PS4 opens up a world of computing power they could only dream about before and opens the doors for new possibilities. I'll believe it when I see it.

Well they sound well chuffed PD picked up on their marketing.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Johnny, what is your personal setup for playing GT?

What are the settings you are using in career modes and ones for online racing? Also, what is the input device (peripheral) you are using to play?

Also, what are the other driving games you are actively playing for past 2-3 years?

You've got mail.

 

[TexRex]

Excuse
this post

Shan't.

 

[jr93alty]

After reading your post a couple of times to try to understand what your saying I've come to two conclusions, one is that you can't drive on comforts or two your part of the racing soft no tire wear crowd.

I'm usually top 2000 on trials in under an hour and I play the game maybe twice a week and don't even know some of the tracks THAT well. I also race in real life and have also driven many supercars although I must admit it is at Exotics Racing which doesn't let you turn aids off or get too crazy. Better come up with some better conclusions.

 

[jr93alty]

A) You started off reasonably enough, MR cars can be difficult to control and require modified driving techniques in the form of braking in a straight line on the approach and applying a small amount of throttle while braking as you get nearer to the apex so that the amount of weight transferred to the front wheels is minimized. Then you go and muck it all up by referring to high speed maneuverability of Pontiac Grand Ams--when has the Grand Am ever been MR?
B) The game doesn't explain in depth, but grip levels under acceleration and cornering loads can be inferred by comparing performance to real-world lap times. If a two grade reduction in compound can yield a comparable time, surely something's not gelling regarding the tires provided as default.
C) There has been no elitism regarding the harder compounds and use of driving aids in this thread directed at anyone else participating in this thread. You may have had experiences of this elitism during gameplay, but for the purposes of this debate, here, it need not be factored in. Regarding the fixed use of ABS on sports cars with toggled settings; that's all well and good when we're really talking about ABS. ABS as it's modelled in the game doesn't behave as it does in real life (and I'm not saying it should be, I imagine that could be quite difficult), and those seeking a more realistic experience can choose to opt out of use and instead take more care under braking. Depending on track conditions, one side may lock or be more susceptible to lock than the other and there won't be a hand there guiding the car down a straighter path. (Yeah, cars can be steered with their brakes as well as their throttle.)
D) Fantastic! Have a laugh! But that said, the idea here is people share their experiences and opinions and hey, maybe there's even some constructive debate over said opinions.
E) Ooh ooh ooh!!! Can I use your crystal ball? You have no insight whatsoever into what experience and/or experiences people whom you do not know have and/or have had.
F) The former has already been addressed. As for the latter; again, you have no insight whatsoever into what others think unless they choose to express it, and nobody here has expressed or proclaimed this prowess. It's unfortunate if you've experienced this during gameplay but discussion of it is unnecessary here.
G) I couldn't agree with you more on both counts. (And I'm glad I got to end on a positive note.)

So please, share your opinions and experiences--there are people (well certainly one) here who genuinely want to read what you have to say in this regard--but can we please stop with the whole "elitism" thing? It has no place in a constructive debate...whether it be expression or accusation.

There is no need to address most of you comments but I'll say this. A Grand Am being FF has nothing to do with the comparison. The comparison as to do with stability of a cheap family car owned by many high schoolers versus performance vehicles costing $100k+. I've driven plenty of MR cars and none of them fishtail freely at relatively low speeds the way they do in the game. Thanks for the attempt to teach me how to approach a corner in a MR car though. I know how to drive just fine. You do realize the NHTSA would never allow a car to be sold in the USA if they handled that way right? That should be the end of the argument but I'm sure some people can come up with something. If you scour the internet, I'd imagine you can find videos of MR cars performing emergency lane changes at speed as part of gov't testing. I'd also imagine it won't look anything like the oscillating that happens in the game. I've driven an old 911 and even that doesn't behave like many cars in GT6 unless you hit a turbo spike exiting a corner with the wheels still off center.

 

[Rafael F]

To me, cars feel harder to control with racing tires because the loss of grip is too fast, almost every time the car starts to oversteer it spins out. It reminds me of GRID 1 physics.
Sports tires are less grippy, but the transition from traction to no traction is way much smoother and easier to correct oversteer.

 

[diegorborges]

I've just made some laps at the Red Bull Ring with the BMW M5 using Comfort Soft tires.

At first I feared that it couldn't be enough "tire" for that mamooth of a car... but everything went right. A cool experience, and I think it suits the car, you can make it oversteer just handling the weight with care. In a different way than with sports tires. I think I'm in love, loss of grip is very gradual on this one.

The comfort tires army keeps going! March!

 

[TexRex]

At first I feared that it couldn't be enough "tire" for that mamooth of a car... but everything went right.

Weight's a boon for lower grip compounds.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I've driven plenty of MR cars and none of them fishtail freely at relatively low speeds the way they do in the game. Thanks for the attempt to teach me how to approach a corner in a MR car though. I know how to drive just fine. You do realize the NHTSA would never allow a car to be sold in the USA if they handled that way right? That should be the end of the argument but I'm sure some people can come up with something. If you scour the internet, I'd imagine you can find videos of MR cars performing emergency lane changes at speed as part of gov't testing. I'd also imagine it won't look anything like the oscillating that happens in the game. I've driven an old 911 and even that doesn't behave like many cars in GT6 unless you hit a turbo spike exiting a corner with the wheels still off center.

 

[TexRex]

That made me happy.






Japanese pirate: "Bathursto Arrrrgh!"

 

[GregOr1971]

Nice post. I love those Japanese "rivals/battles" videos they've done. Always fun to watch 👍


Slightly off topic and regarding some other conversation we had in some other forum > this is the type of "racing" I think PD is trying to "replicate" in GT. Clean and smooth.But they're not quite there (AI wise) ,yet.

 

[phil_75]

So was I. I stated that said McLaren was consistently hitting 201 (clearly not its limit when you consider what comes next...) but got the bump to 217 with the aid of a draft. It was accelerating to 201 under its own power and, when this resistance that apparently was never there couldn't possibly have been alleviated, it was able to accelerate to 217.
Quote my claim that either of those numbers is correct and I'll cease my contributions [be they to the benefit or the detriment] to this forum. Forum. Not the thread--the forum. I only stated that those numbers were reached.
I'm not saying anything here with matter-of-fact conviction and I've even gone so far as to question my own beliefs regarding the accuracy of tire grip deficit. (I've never driven a GT-R and couldn't fathom the amount of grip it had available on CS so I dropped to CM.) However, wouldn't increased velocity with an apparent reduction in resistance imply the existence of said resistance? And provided there is the existence of said resistance--coupled with the fact that any car must accelerate to reach any velocity--there must be acceleration with resistance? (However accurate or inaccurate it may be.)
Having said all that; I re-read the rest (I got stuck on the whole lack-of-resistance thing) of your statement and I agree with other aspects. A large number of cars in the game are overpowered--even the GT-R without an oil change required further reduction to match its real counterpart. I also noted the 60mph figure you mentioned and its relation to when the benefits of downforce on the LMPs and whatnot can be perceived...so there's something to that as well.

Yeah i'm not saying i'm correct or it is definitely off, it's just my opinion for now.
I'm gonna try to do a bit of testing but without the acceleration test that was in GT5 it is gonna be hard.

I first noticed it when i drove the Corsa 1.4 of all things, my girlfriend had that car and i drove it regularly.
When you hit 90mph in real life it would take ages to go each extra mph but in GT6 it just kept going on, at a much faster rate, to i think it was 118mph in the end!
It would take miles of road to get near that speed in real life and i seriously doubt it could hit 118mph anyway.

It's just something i'd like to investigate further.

Anyway, we'll forget about yesterday, i go off on one sometimes but i've taken my medicine today

 

[Le_Manuz]

Yeah i'm not saying i'm correct or it is definitely off, it's just my opinion for now.
I'm gonna try to do a bit of testing but without the acceleration test that was in GT5 it is gonna be hard.

I first noticed it when i drove the Corsa 1.4 of all things, my girlfriend had that car and i drove it regularly.
When you hit 90mph in real life it would take ages to go each extra mph but in GT6 it just kept going on, at a much faster rate, to i think it was 118mph in the end!
It would take miles of road to get near that speed in real life and i seriously doubt it could hit 118mph anyway.

It's just something i'd like to investigate further.

Anyway, we'll forget about yesterday, i go off on one sometimes but i've taken my medicine today

you describe what i feel with the game, aerodynamics don't work correctly
to be short, take a real fast track where cars don't use much down force setup like monza (temple of speed)
high down force setup will win against low down force setup
because they are not slowed down enough by aerodynamic forces so they have both advantages, better grip and good top speed

For tire grip, i didn't analyze it in depth,
but i had the feeling that:
what ever car you drive if they have the same tires, they have roughly the same cornering speed
except if you have extra additional down force like race cars
maybe it's correct or maybe not
car chassis and suspension type (mcpherson, simple wishbone, double wishbone, suspension angle) have a big influence on that no ?