DiRT Rally 2.0 General Discussion

[SlimCharles]

I've been obsessed with group B lately and there are some details I noticed in the game.

It represents really well some stuff: the anti lag system and PDK gearbox from the S1 E2, its stability on jumps thanks to aerodynamics, the absolute imposibility of driving the S4 sideways, the 205 jumping nose down...

But is it me or they absorb jumps too well? In real footage group b cars were atrocious in that regard. It's the main difference with modern machinery, that can get as high as 2-3 meters in the air and land with ease.

 

[tbtstt]

I've been obsessed with group B lately and there are some details I noticed in the game.

It represents really well some stuff: the anti lag system and PDK gearbox from the S1 E2, its stability on jumps thanks to aerodynamics, the absolute imposibility of driving the S4 sideways, the 205 jumping nose down...

But is it me or they absorb jumps too well? In real footage group b cars were atrocious in that regard. It's the main difference with modern machinery, that can get as high as 2-3 meters in the air and land with ease.

The 4WD Group B cars are a handful in the game but, in my personal opinion, are toned down from real life.

ALS isn't accurately modelled in the game and the Group B cars aren't as laggy as they should be. I like driving the E2, but it handles WAY too well: the real car understeered like a pig! As you have pointed out the suspension is too effective as well.

That is reflected in the potential stage times you can achieve in the Group B cars versus the other 4WD classes.

 

[SlimCharles]

That's right. The S1 E2 was a bit better, but there was no corner where they didn't use left foot braking with the Sport Quattro. I think it was Blomqvist who said it drove similar to a FWD car.

That technique is completely useless in the game. Dirt games have suffered this lack of understeer for ages.

That being said, DR2.0 is great overall. I hope they keep pushing in the right direction.

 

[tbtstt]

That's right. The S1 E2 was a bit better, but there was no corner where they didn't use left foot braking with the Sport Quattro. I think it was Blomqvist who said it drove similar to a FWD car.

The best bit about the E2 was the engine, the Sport Quattro was never going to work as long as the engine stayed out front. Think it was Rohrl who said the E2 engine in an A2 Quattro would have been the best combination.

Always hoped that someone would try and reproduce the short lived mid-engine S1.

It isn't perfect, but I think the DR2.0 is the best overall rally game to date. Easily the best representation of rallycross we have ever got as well.

 

[SlimCharles]

The best bit about the E2 was the engine, the Sport Quattro was never going to work as long as the engine stayed out front. Think it was Rohrl who said the E2 engine in an A2 Quattro would have been the best combination.

Always hoped that someone would try and reproduce the short lived mid-engine S1.

Not sure if Rohrl or Mikkola, but I definetly read some factory Audi driver didn't like the "shorty". The thing had a worse weight distribution (according to GroupBshrine) than the long wheel base one. With the E2 they went bananas trying to fix it:

Spoiler: Source: GroupBshrine

Like you said, it was never gonna work against mid engine prototypes like the Peugeot and Lancia. Engineers knew, but Audi executives didn't want to expend money on something that wouldn't have resemblance with their cars (that's why the 205 is pure genius: the best one and most similar to its road legal counterpart). That would lead to the amazing spy stuff that is the developing of the mid engine Quattro.

On the (very) bright side, this situation gave us the most iconic rally car ever made. Drivers had to drive it like maniacs, using all kinds of extremely difficult techniques at once (left foot braking, triple scandinavian flicks...) and engineers had to transform a tainted concept into a technological marvel: PDK, anti lag system, fierce aerodynamics... And that sound.

GOD GROUP B IS AWESOME.

 

[tbtstt]

Like you said, it was never gonna work against mid engine prototypes like the Peugeot and Lancia. Engineers knew, but Audi executives didn't want to expend money on something that wouldn't have resemblance with their cars (that's why the 205 is pure genius: the best one and most similar to its road legal counterpart). That would lead to the amazing spy stuff that is the developing of the mid engine Quattro.

I have always respected Audi for their stance with the rally program and trying to retain a connection with the whole Audi range. As you say the engineers clearly recognized early on how much this compromised them, but it took too long for the management to accept that fact.

Yeah, Peugeot struck a good balance by using the central tub of the 205, though by the time that they had chopped it up the connection to a mass produced 205 was pretty tenuous (though it did at least vaguely look like one from a distance!). Lancia took the silhouette racer idea to the absolute extreme with the Delta S4. Although the 205 was the statistical winner, I personally think the Delta S4 was the best Group B rally car in that it pushed every limit of the regulations and, even with a rushed development, it was the only car to consistently challenge the evolved 205 T16...

...if Group B had continued - or if Group S had been implemented - it would have been fascinating to see where things went. Audi had accepted they needed to go mid-engine and the Evolution version of the RS200 looked to address the shortcomings of the first iteration.

On the (very) bright side, this situation gave us the most iconic rally car ever made. Drivers had to drive it like maniacs, using all kinds of extremely difficult techniques at once (left foot braking, triple scandinavian flicks...) and engineers had to transform a tainted concept into a technological marvel: PDK, anti lag system, fierce aerodynamics... And that sound.

It has long amused me that the E2 is seen by many as "the" group B car and this huge icon of the sport, but it was by far the least successful iteration of the Quattro and, unlike its predecessor, was utterly outclassed by its rivals. Can't dispute that noise though, arguably the greatest sounding competition car of all time!

GOD GROUP B IS AWESOME.

From a technical and development standpoint it was an incredible time. Gave us some astonishing cars which, in their later life, went on to provide a golden era of rallycross as well.

Considering the overall picture though, I personally don't believe Group B was the best period for rally.

 

[SlimCharles]

It has long amused me that the E2 is seen by many as "the" group B car and this huge icon of the sport, but it was by far the least successful iteration of the Quattro and, unlike its predecessor, was utterly outclassed by its rivals. Can't dispute that noise though, arguably the greatest sounding competition car of all time!

IMO it deserves that place. It wasn't as competitive as the 205 E2 and S4, but a strong underdog. It was very entertaining to watch (205 wasn't as fierce and the S4 struggled sideways driving) and while the S4 was indeed the most extreme interpretation of the regulations and one of the most nightmare-ish looking racecars ever made, the S1 E2 didn't look like a puppy either. It was the first group B awd supercar before group B.

Considering the overall picture though, I personally don't believe Group B was the best period for rally.

That's also an incredibly magnetic topic of discussion, as a matter of fact, many well respected journalists of the sport, will say the same as you. I think it is not just the greatest period of rallying, but it even might be of all motorsport history.

They look stupid compared to 2017 WRC or Rally1 cars. Couldn't jump higher than half meter without crashing and let's not talk about hairpins. Modern wrc cars are way more spectacular besides sound and looks: it's like a combination of rally raid, gt3 and karting. Incredibly agile, high downforce, flying monsters.

Group B appealing is more nuanced, referred to what's happening behind what you see. Overpowered beasts taking legendary drivers way off their capabilities. Drama and political struggle. Total indifference for human safety (not good, just fascinating). Ludicrous technical applications: who the hell thought it was a good idea to use a ventury device in a racing car that's bouncing all the time.

PS: I know we are way off topic, but the discussion is getting to places that are way too interesting and rarely seen online.

 

[MrCrynox]

I can remember going out with my Dad in the early to mid eighties, standing in a cold dark wet layby on a miserable day on the A46 (by the M4 J18), and watching/listening in amazement as these cars like nothing I'd seen before drove by on a road section, all the colours, pops and bangs, whistling, flames etc. My Dad can't remember it, I was only 7-9 years old at the time. It stuck with me and then later getting into the WRC toward the end of the 90's when I moved out and got cable TV it all came flooding back.
I think DR1/2 does a wonderful job of portraying GrpB as we like to remember it.

I think the 2017-21 cars are the modern equivalent. Totally special and never to be seen again, just like GrpB

 

[Jtheripper]

The 4WD Group B cars are a handful in the game but, in my personal opinion, are toned down from real life.

ALS isn't accurately modelled in the game and the Group B cars aren't as laggy as they should be. I like driving the E2, but it handles WAY too well: the real car understeered like a pig! As you have pointed out the suspension is too effective as well.

That is reflected in the potential stage times you can achieve in the Group B cars versus the other 4WD classes.

Well in general, it seems dr2 makes you feel the thrill of older cars pretty well, and landing not ligned up is pretty intense, hoping you pull it off and keep it under control.
Certainly much more than the older cars in wrc games.

That's right. The S1 E2 was a bit better, but there was no corner where they didn't use left foot braking with the Sport Quattro. I think it was Blomqvist who said it drove similar to a FWD car.

That technique is completely useless in the game. Dirt games have suffered this lack of understeer for ages.

That being said, DR2.0 is great overall. I hope they keep pushing in the right direction.

The old audi in dr2 for me understeers quite a lot as soon as you throttle it, if you dont put it sideways a lot 1st in curves, i don't know, im no expert of course,,but it's a handful still and most older cars are fun to try handle.
It's a lot of effort as it is lol to me.

 

[tbtstt]

IMO it deserves that place. It wasn't as competitive as the 205 E2 and S4, but a strong underdog. It was very entertaining to watch (205 wasn't as fierce and the S4 struggled sideways driving) and while the S4 was indeed the most extreme interpretation of the regulations and one of the most nightmare-ish looking racecars ever made, the S1 E2 didn't look like a puppy either. It was the first group B awd supercar before group B.

I'll respectfully disagree - or rather partially agree - with you there; I absolutely agree that the Group 4 Ur quattro deserves maximum respect, as it shifted the sport in a new direction that we are still travelling in today. However, as much as I prefer the look of the shorter cars, I think both the S1 and E2 (especially the E2) are overrated within Group B. The E2 definitely looks the part and sounds immense but, for the reasons discussed in the earlier posts, Audi went from redefining the sport to stragglers in an incredibly short period of time. The E2 is the epitome of that.

Perhaps an unfair statement to make, but I think there is a fair argument for the Audi withdrawal in 1986 being more a face saving exercise than a reaction to the FISA decision to cancel Group B.

Group B appealing is more nuanced, referred to what's happening behind what you see. Overpowered beasts taking legendary drivers way off their capabilities. Drama and political struggle. Total indifference for human safety (not good, just fascinating). Ludicrous technical applications: who the hell thought it was a good idea to use a ventury device in a racing car that's bouncing all the time.

All true and there is no doubt that it was a unique period in the history in the sport however, considering the era as a whole, the competition wasn't the closest. Plenty of manufacturers were involved, but few were truly competitive at any one time, mechanical failures were rife and Group B was ultimately unsustainable.

That isn't to say it wasn't an amazing moment in rally (and motorsport) history but, for me, other eras were more complete.

PS: I know we are way off topic, but the discussion is getting to places that are way too interesting and rarely seen online.

I blame Codemasters for the off topic: if they'd hurry up and give us a new game we'd be talking about that instead.

I think the 2017-21 cars are the modern equivalent. Totally special and never to be seen again, just like GrpB

Yeah, I thought the 2017 WRCars had more than a whiff of Group B about them. I think every one of the 2.0L and 1.6L have been technically impressive in their own way, but the first time I saw a 2017 car in full attack mode I was absolutely stunned. The speed - and control at speed - just looked unreal.

The 2022 hybrid cars have arguably moved even closer to Group B as they are now effectively space frames with some panels hanging off them. I have only heard the Puma in person, but I was surprised by how good the hybrids sound as well, reminds of some of the best cars of the early 2.0L WRCar era.

Well in general, it seems dr2 makes you feel the thrill of older cars pretty well, and landing not ligned up is pretty intense, hoping you pull it off and keep it under control.
Certainly much more than the older cars in wrc games.

The old audi in dr2 for me understeers quite a lot as soon as you throttle it, if you dont put it sideways a lot 1st in curves, i don't know, im no expert of course,,but it's a handful still and most older cars are fun to try handle.
It's a lot of effort as it is lol to me.

I am fairly surely they have dialed the Group B cars down a little. I was fortunate enough to played a very early version of Dirt Rally at Codemasters and the E2 we tried then was an absolute nightmare. Of course that was my first introduction to a much more challenging style of game, but I just remember copious understeer and horrendous amounts of turbo lag.

In their current DR2.0 form I definitely still find them a handful though and, as you say, there is quite a thrill driving/hanging onto them when you are absolutely flat out. I have said it many times - but I don't think it can't be stated enough - how great the audio for the cars is, especially those in the Group B class. Many iconic engine sounds all, in my opinion, superbly represented.

 

[SlimCharles]

Not a fan of Coddies, but they don't get nowhere near the respect they deserve in the sound department. They are arguably the best there is.

Raceroom got a lot of recognition years ago, and I was baffled because while sounding amazing, wasn't nowhere near as faithful as Dirt Rally.

 

[MrCrynox]

Codemasters are definitely soundmasters. Nothing can complete with engine sounds of DR1/2. The only one game that is slightly on the level is ACC.

Edit: I've got a pretty decent sound setup but I generally play DR with headphones on because it sounds even better and really hits the spot

 

[MagpieRacer]

Agreed, going back to Dirt Rally 2 after WRCG really rams home how good Codemasters are with sound.

 

[tbtstt]

Codemasters are definitely soundmasters. Nothing can complete with engine sounds of DR1/2. The only one game that is slightly on the level is ACC.

Ha. The first thing I was going to comment after reading SlimCharles post was a mention for ACC, the audio in that is fantastic.

 

[MrCrynox]

Ha. The first thing I was going to comment after reading SlimCharles post was a mention for ACC, the audio in that is fantastic.

Yeah to be fair it's pretty damn good. I really like the sound of the Mercedes especially driving past the start/finish straight.

@MagpieRacer I've done the same. In fact I've been playing the WRC games for so long I've neglected DR2, I'm currently getting stuck in and in awe tbh. Amazing game, so tactile compared to the mute and numb feeling of WRCG, (mainly because of the lack of sound that I keep moaning about). I've just played the weekly with the WRC class Fabia in NZ, first time with this car, man I love it, so intuitive, feels so right.

 

[merseyxshore]

Regarding Group B: it was incredible from an engineering free-reign point of view, and the cars looked cool and sounded insane. But as I'm sure I've said many times elsewhere on this forum before, the 4WD 'supercar' top flight of Group B is probably my least favourite era of rallying to look back on and watch. I'd actually also say it was one of the least spectacular driving-wise. Sure, everyone has seen the same few clips of the cars bursting through the crowds and whatnot, and the straight-line speed was undeniably amazing, but what you don't see is how much they struggled on tight and twisty stuff. They often had to do three-point turns on the tighter hairpins, as the primitive four wheel drive systems wouldn't allow for handbrake turns. The rear wheel drive stuff was much better to watch, and were mostly derived from road cars, as opposed to the spaceframe supercars of the B12 class. And that's all disregarding the ethical nightmare that was the Group B regulations which essentially sent crew and spectators to their deaths.

Group A (and also late 70s/early 80s Group 4, but it's not quite as well documented on video) was the absolute peak of top-end rallying for me. Go and watch any of the British Rally Championship reviews from the late 80s, especially the Manx International footage. Seeing the Sierras battling the BMWs on Isle Of Man tarmac is some of the most exciting and spectacular motorsport you'll ever watch on video. And of course the McRae era of the WRC speaks for itself.

 

[tbtstt]

Group A (and also late 70s/early 80s Group 4, but it's not quite as well documented on video) was the absolute peak of top-end rallying for me.

Yeah, Group A for me as well: gave us some of the closest racing (with many of my favourite drivers) and put a raft of performance icons into the showrooms. Such regulations would never work now, which it perhaps why I appreciate the era so much.

National European events in the late 90's were incredible, with a mixture of Group A and some of the early WRCars in the hands of privateers.

 

[merseyxshore]

National European events in the late 90's were incredible, with a mixture of Group A and some of the early WRCars in the hands of privateers.

The Irish Tarmac Championship springs to mind here, some amazing drivers on amazing stages, even to this day.

Also I feel like people who are actually involved in rallying don't rate Group B anywhere near as highly as those who aren't involved.

 

[Scaff]

Also I feel like people who are actually involved in rallying don't rate Group B anywhere near as highly as those who aren't involved.

For me, the biggest myth that still exists around Group B is that they were fastest rally cars that have ever been, while the reality is that within a short few years Group A cars were already exceeding Group B in every area of speed. Car's built to the current regs utterly destroy Group B in terms of pace.

 

[tbtstt]

The Irish Tarmac Championship springs to mind here, some amazing drivers on amazing stages, even to this day.

Also I feel like people who are actually involved in rallying don't rate Group B anywhere near as highly as those who aren't involved.

Ireland and Belgium are the two countries that were foremost in mind when I made that comment. The ITRC has (in my personal opinion) long been one of the most consistent Championships, but the quality and quantity of machinery in Ireland during the Celtic Tiger was something else. Can't tell you how many times I have re-watched the season coverage from the late 90's and early 00's events!

For me, the biggest myth that still exists around Group B is that they were fastest rally cars that have ever been, while the reality is that within a short few years Group A cars were already exceeding Group B in every area of speed. Car's built to the current regs utterly destroy Group B in terms of pace.

Absolutely. Group B does seem to have become a favourite of social media and you see a huge amount of misinformation perpetuated in articles and the subsequent comment sections. As you rightly say, the Integrale had caught and bettered the Group B stage times within the first few years of Group A. Cars have only got faster since.

I think a Rally2 (R5) would easily best a Group B car on a typical stage, the current Rally1 car would annihilate it.

 

[merseyxshore]

For me, the biggest myth that still exists around Group B is that they were fastest rally cars that have ever been, while the reality is that within a short few years Group A cars were already exceeding Group B in every area of speed. Car's built to the current regs utterly destroy Group B in terms of pace.

Ireland and Belgium are the two countries that were foremost in mind when I made that comment. The ITRC has (in my personal opinion) long been one of the most consistent Championships, but the quality and quantity of machinery in Ireland during the Celtic Tiger was something else. Can't tell you how many times I have re-watched the season coverage from the late 90's and early 00's events!

Absolutely. Group B does seem to have become a favourite of social media and you see a huge amount of misinformation perpetuated in articles and the subsequent comment sections. As you rightly say, the Integrale had caught and bettered the Group B stage times within the first few years of Group A. Cars have only got faster since.

I think a Rally2 (R5) would easily best a Group B car on a typical stage, the current Rally1 car would annihilate it.

100% on all counts. Like you say, the Delta and the Subaru Legacy were putting in faster stage times than the Group B cars, let alone a modern R5! There's a joke among rallying circles that Group B stands for Group Boomer 😂 due to older more vocal armchair fans

 

[SlimCharles]

I take the myth as proof of Group B awesomeness. For example, the rumour of the Delta S4 on Estoril keeps on going, and it doesn't have any sense when you think about it. There is a quote from Vatanen that says something like "you don't meassure value with stats, but by impact on people". I know this is quite a dangerous argument that leads to defend any kind of position independently of how absurd it sounds, but it must have some truth underneath.

Drivers from that era pretty much define it as the best part of their lives. And I'm not sure there are other motorsport periods that transcend the sport like Group B does.

Side note, there is a clip of the S4 at full power that is one of the times I've been more impressed with footage of a racing car in straight line. Speed demon.

 

[tbtstt]

I take the myth as proof of Group B awesomeness. For example, the rumour of the Delta S4 on Estoril keeps on going, and it doesn't have any sense when you think about it.

That kind of ties back to my last post...

Group B does seem to have become a favourite of social media and you see a huge amount of misinformation perpetuated in articles and the subsequent comment sections...

...that Estoril story has been proven to be inaccurate, but continues to be referenced by people who haven't read anything beyond a headline.

There is a quote from Vatanen that says something like "you don't meassure value with stats, but by impact on people". I know this is quite a dangerous argument that leads to defend any kind of position independently of how absurd it sounds, but it must have some truth underneath.

There is definitely a valid point there: faster stage times don't necessarily mean things are better. For me the last of the 2.0L WRCars were perfect proof of that, as the stage speed was high, but the cars were clinical to watch. I was against the switch to 1.6L at the time but, having seen the cars that followed, they looked and sounded better than those they replaced (in my opinion anyway).

Sort of related, but I saw that Juha Kankkunen finally acknowledged his (annoyingly over-repeated!) "Group B for men..." statement was no longer true after driving a Rally1 car last year.

There's a joke among rallying circles that Group B stands for Group Boomer 😂 due to older more vocal armchair fans

Yeah, have seen that term bandied about before: there is definitely an older fanbase (with their rose tinted spectacles on!) who refuse to accept that anything could be better - and I think there is always a bias towards the era of the sport you grew up with - but I do note that a lot of online praise for Group B comes from younger fans who weren't even born when Group B was a thing. Something common that unites the two is that, when asked, many of the proponents of Group B haven't actually seen a modern rally car in action for themselves (though I do appreciate that is easier said than done).

Funny thing is, is that after rallycross was done with Group B in '92, there was over a decade where it seemed to be rarely discussed. It is only in more recent years where the level of interest seems to have risen again.

 

[doblocruiser]

You guys make me want to fire it up again ✌️

 

[merseyxshore]

The Juha quote is extra ridiculous considering one of the best drivers of the era was a woman haha.

 

[MrCrynox]

The Juha quote is extra ridiculous considering one of the best drivers of the era was a woman haha.

One of his better quotes was, 'black round perilli'. Cracked me up.

 

[tbtstt]

The Juha quote is extra ridiculous considering one of the best drivers of the era was a woman haha.

I am a big Juha fan, but that quote is a major facepalm moment for me...

One of his better quotes was, 'black round perilli'. Cracked me up.

...his best quote in my personal opinion! Gronholm is still the king of short, sarcastic, comments though!

 

[MrCrynox]

I am a big Juha fan, but that quote is a major facepalm moment for me...

...his best quote in my personal opinion! Gronholm is still the king of short, sarcastic, comments though!

You never knew what you were going to get with Gronholm, but it was always hilarious
A lot of it was him struggling with English at the time so it would always come out funny, and once the commentators/stage end interviewers realised this they'd ask him all the more. A bit like now with Tanak, but for different reasons, always asking stupid questions on purpose to try and get him to give a snappy answer.

Edit: in fact I love the look on Tanak's face when they ask him something stupid, he doesn't suffers fools at all. Some people dislike his always seemingly negative outlook but personally I love it, call a spade a spade etc.

 

[merseyxshore]

You never knew what you were going to get with Gronholm, but it was always hilarious
A lot of it was him struggling with English at the time so it would always come out funny, and once the commentators/stage end interviewers realised this they'd ask him all the more. A bit like now with Tanak, but for different reasons, always asking stupid questions on purpose to try and get him to give a snappy answer.

"Up in the ass of Timo" with accompanying hand movement is the most iconic moment in rallying history for me 🤣

 

[MrCrynox]

"Up in the ass of Timo" with accompanying hand movement is the most iconic moment in rallying history for me 🤣

Yeah, brilliant. Again struggling to say it right and therefore hilarious. 😆