DiRT Rally Thread

LeGeNd-1
I would turn down "Tyre Slip" effects in wheel settings. This is the effect that makes the wheel goes light when understeering, and I find most games tend to exaggerate this effect. Around 20% would be a good setting. SAT is the steering force and you want this as high as possible.

I have been cross checking FFB across a lot of sims lately (GTR2, LFS, AC, GSCE) and there are basically 2 main forces in FFB:
1) SAT - this is the force from steering rack (pulls the wheel straight after a turn - hence the name self aligning) and gives you mass transfer info. Very useful and you want this as high as possible
2) Tyre grip/slip - simulates the light steering feel when you lose grip in tires (mostly understeer, because oversteer affects the rear tyres and you don't steer with rear tyres :P). Most games tend to over exaggerate this effect. The older sims does it, but the newer ones (LFS, AC) doesn't and it's only a subtle effect, just like in real life (yes, I have understeered and almost crashed into a fence once).

All other forces are "canned" effects that are just added random vibrations. You can safely turn these off as they provide no info about the actual car physics and just serves to muddle up the pure SAT forces. Also turn off steering center force. This is an old FFB "shortcut" when game physics didn't accurately simulate SAT.
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In which case they are using some very misleading descriptions indeed.

Self Aligning Torque is a tyre generated force, its the force generated as a tyre turns (and creates slip) as the rubber attempts to 'get back' to its original position. Effectively torque is generated as the rubber resists being twisted as slip is generated, which is felt as resistance to steering input. So as you turn the tyre resists and you feel 'weight' in the steering, however the rubber will reach a point at which it can no longer twist (as it starts to lose grip) and the force will reduce and weight will be reduced. While it can be influenced by the suspension geometry (caster in particular), its not a force generated by the steering rack, simply transmitted from the tyre via the rack.

Tyre Slip is not strictly a force, but rather the difference (in cornering) between the direction the tyre is travelling and the direction it wants to travel. Tyre Slip does produce a force (Self Aligning Torque), but is the cause, rather than the name of the force.

Its also something that will vary in terms of how abruptly it will break away, and while it will not normally breakaway as quickly as it builds it is still generally very abrupt and having experienced it countless times is not what I would describe as subtle. Particularly as you have been countering the build up in torque to that point.

GW688H737


Source: http://www.engr.colostate.edu/pts/Job/Understanding Parameters Influencing Tire Modeling.pdf
Source: http://white-smoke.wikifoundry.com/page/Self+aligning+torque+and+the+Gough+plot

Edited to add:

You can see both slip and SAT is action for yourself with a very simple experiment. Get a pencil eraser (rubber to all of us non-Americans) and put it flat on a surface (this is your tyres contact patch), then push down on it with you fingers (to provide load) and slowly try and twist it on the desk as if it were a tyre turning. You will feel the resistance build (this is Self Aligning torque) and see the eraser change shape as the direction it wants to be in and the direction you want it to be in differ (this deformation is in some ways the tyre slip). However as you keep turning you will notice that its will eventually lose this battle and all the torque that has been building will disappear (and quite rapidly). What is happening to the eraser in this is exactly what is happening to the contact patch of your tyre as you turn and forces build.

Oh you will also notice that the more force you apply to the eraser the harder it is to initially turn, but the more rotational force it will sustain before 'letting go', which is showing how your maximum tractive force is a result of load (the pressure you push down on the eraser with) multiplied by the mu of the eraser (how sticky the rubber it is made of is). This is again exactly the same with tyres, the total grip you get is a result of how sticky the tyre compound is multiplied by the load placed upon it (it does get more complicated that this as this is not a linear increase, unless you are applying that load via down-force).
 
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Finally got my hands on a hillclimb special. I went for the 405. Had a couple of terrifying moment where all I could see was the sky, and since the car was unfamiliar, I just didn't have the confidence to throw it around at anything more than 90km/h. Surprised that I kept hitting the rev limiter at 156km/h, given that I was topping 190km/h in the Escort Cosworth in Finland.
 
prisonermonkeys
Finally got my hands on a hillclimb special. I went for the 405. Had a couple of terrifying moment where all I could see was the sky, and since the car was unfamiliar, I just didn't have the confidence to throw it around at anything more than 90km/h. Surprised that I kept hitting the rev limiter at 156km/h, given that I was topping 190km/h in the Escort Cosworth in Finland.
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Had a similar experience on the weekly with rwd Group B, bought the 037 and it's insane. Did manage to finish the weekly in one piece however, so that's a step in the right direction.

Currently also doing a campaign session with an Intergralle and that thing is wonderful, loved it in the snow (video highlights incoming later today fingers crossed).
 
Scaff
Currently also doing a campaign session with an Intergralle and that thing is wonderful, loved it in the snow (video highlights incoming later today fingers crossed).
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You should try the Opel Kadett at Sweden, it is awesome in the snow if you get the suspension settings right. I will render out a video later on (or tomorrow), as I was recording replay footage lastnight. Just having to sort out my video settings however, as youtube is killing my videos atm on the compression aspect of things.

Made it to the end of Monteo Carlo in the F2 kit car monthly:


The damage you see on the car I did on the first race at Wales, as I manged to roll the car in the very first sector. Didn't help that I only had a crew chief, which I did not realize till I made it to Monte Carlo. I should be able to fix most of the damage in the next round.
 
Scaff
Had a similar experience on the weekly with rwd Group B, bought the 037 and it's insane.
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Yeah, but at least you get pace notes. Although Juha Piironen - Henri Toivonen's co-driver - did say once that when the car was under power, the front end would lift up and suddenly all you could see was the sky. When they added the light pod, it interrupted the aerodynamics so much that all they could see was the tops of the trees. In seven entries with the car, Toivonen wrote off five chassis.

That said, Markku Alén was always pretty confident with it - to the point where he moved his braking points forward a good twenty metres in Finland.
 
LeGeNd-1
I would turn down "Tyre Slip" effects in wheel settings. This is the effect that makes the wheel goes light when understeering, and I find most games tend to exaggerate this effect. Around 20% would be a good setting. SAT is the steering force and you want this as high as possible.

I have been cross checking FFB across a lot of sims lately (GTR2, LFS, AC, GSCE) and there are basically 2 main forces in FFB:
1) SAT - this is the force from steering rack (pulls the wheel straight after a turn - hence the name self aligning) and gives you mass transfer info. Very useful and you want this as high as possible
2) Tyre grip/slip - simulates the light steering feel when you lose grip in tires (mostly understeer, because oversteer affects the rear tyres and you don't steer with rear tyres :P). Most games tend to over exaggerate this effect. The older sims does it, but the newer ones (LFS, AC) doesn't and it's only a subtle effect, just like in real life (yes, I have understeered and almost crashed into a fence once).

All other forces are "canned" effects that are just added random vibrations. You can safely turn these off as they provide no info about the actual car physics and just serves to muddle up the pure SAT forces. Also turn off steering center force. This is an old FFB "shortcut" when game physics didn't accurately simulate SAT.



http://blog.codemasters.com/dirt/04/co-driver-calls-explained/

Give this a good read, it explains everything about the numbers and additional descriptions. Also, it shows you how much work they actually put into the pacenotes (they strapped the guy to a motion simulator just to give the effect of talking while going over rough bumps). It's not just simple computer generated notes. Of course with such a wide variety of cars and surfaces a few corners are always going to be a bit off, but it's the best that we can expect from a studio of Codemasters size.

DiRT-RALLY-pacenotes.jpg




Just because you are less sensitive to FFB than others, doesn't mean there isn't a problem. At the end of the day we all just want the best physics and FFB possible, it's called constructive criticism.
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No it's called overmoaning. I've read here of people skipping the game due to ffb issues. Yesterday someone posted "non existent" ffb. This is not constructive and doesn't help people that are waiting to judge the game.
 
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Bought on PS4 from eBay/cheap still not arrived.

Great to see most enjoying the game but even with a sensible breakfast digested I wonder why some constantly look at games for faults to real world physics FFB oddities not being for them perfect.

Is the situation that bad it effects the enjoyment or worse than other titles?
 
Mr Latte
Bought on PS4 from eBay/cheap still not arrived.

Great to see most enjoying the game but even with a sensible breakfast digested I wonder why some constantly look at games for faults to real world physics FFB oddities not being for them perfect.

Is the situation that bad it effects the enjoyment or worse than other titles?
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I think people just like to have a moan to be honest. Every ffb and physics system has its own foibles and none of them will ever reach true reality. However, as long as the game is good and fun it's pretty easy to look past them because you should have a smile on your face ;)
 
WARNING: Long post ahead. If you are not concerned with FFB discussion on a technical level you should probably just scroll down :lol:

Scaff
In which case they are using some very misleading descriptions indeed.

Self Aligning Torque is a tyre generated force, its the force generated as a tyre turns (and creates slip) as the rubber attempts to 'get back' to its original position. Effectively torque is generated as the rubber resists being twisted as slip is generated, which is felt as resistance to steering input. So as you turn the tyre resists and you feel 'weight' in the steering, however the rubber will reach a point at which it can no longer twist (as it starts to lose grip) and the force will reduce and weight will be reduced. While it can be influenced by the suspension geometry (caster in particular), its not a force generated by the steering rack, simply transmitted from the tyre via the rack.

Tyre Slip is not strictly a force, but rather the difference (in cornering) between the direction the tyre is travelling and the direction it wants to travel. Tyre Slip does produce a force (Self Aligning Torque), but is the cause, rather than the name of the force.

Its also something that will vary in terms of how abruptly it will break away, and while it will not normally breakaway as quickly as it builds it is still generally very abrupt and having experienced it countless times is not what I would describe as subtle. Particularly as you have been countering the build up in torque to that point.

Source: http://www.engr.colostate.edu/pts/Job/Understanding Parameters Influencing Tire Modeling.pdf
Source: http://white-smoke.wikifoundry.com/page/Self+aligning+torque+and+the+Gough+plot

Edited to add:

You can see both slip and SAT is action for yourself with a very simple experiment. Get a pencil eraser (rubber to all of us non-Americans) and put it flat on a surface (this is your tyres contact patch), then push down on it with you fingers (to provide load) and slowly try and twist it on the desk as if it were a tyre turning. You will feel the resistance build (this is Self Aligning torque) and see the eraser change shape as the direction it wants to be in and the direction you want it to be in differ (this deformation is in some ways the tyre slip). However as you keep turning you will notice that its will eventually lose this battle and all the torque that has been building will disappear (and quite rapidly). What is happening to the eraser in this is exactly what is happening to the contact patch of your tyre as you turn and forces build.

Oh you will also notice that the more force you apply to the eraser the harder it is to initially turn, but the more rotational force it will sustain before 'letting go', which is showing how your maximum tractive force is a result of load (the pressure you push down on the eraser with) multiplied by the mu of the eraser (how sticky the rubber it is made of is). This is again exactly the same with tyres, the total grip you get is a result of how sticky the tyre compound is multiplied by the load placed upon it (it does get more complicated that this as this is not a linear increase, unless you are applying that load via down-force).
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Thanks for the really informative post 👍 It's gonna take me a while to read that pdf, but I read the webpage and it does make sense. Love that eraser analogy too.

I don't have an engineering background, so it everything I've learnt is just by seat of the pants feel (or seat of the fingers in terms of sims :P). I have no doubt what you are saying is 100% correct when applied to real life, and all sims are also trying to get to that point. So I won't contest what you've written here.

For my original post however, I was merely remarking on how FFB settings seem to be implemented in sims (which may or may not be correctly named, and I'm just going by what the actual settings screen says here).

For AC, you have this screen below. Gain is the master setting, and to me seems to combine SAT and steering rack forces. Slip effects is canned vibrations when the rear wheels lose traction. Enhanced understeer effect is the light feeling you get when understeering. Without this box ticked the wheels doesn't get light all that much when understeering. The devs themselves have said this is an artificial setting, so you can see where I get the impression of understeer effects only being "subtle".
ITv6Uqc.png


For GSCE which uses rFactor's physics + RealFeel, the settings look like this (you have to edit it manually in notepad):
MaxForceAtSteeringRack=1700.000000 (steering rack + SAT)
SteeringDamper=11500.000000 (artificial to add resistance)
FFBMixerRealFeelPercent=100.000000 (how much of the FFB is from rFactor's base FFB or RealFeel, in this case it's 100% RealFeel)
FrontGripEffect=0.200000 (gives light feeling when understeering, the higher number, the more it's exaggerated)
SmoothingLevel=0 (how much the FFB is filtered)
Kf=11500.000000 (this and 3 below settings only serve to make the wheel heavy when turning it at a standstill - aka "Parking Lot Effects" - because rFactor tyre physics goes awry at low speeds)
Ks=5.000000
A=1.500000
Kr=4.500000

For GTR2, it uses base rFactor physics. Again, you have to tinker with notepad here. I only put the parameters which are not canned effects. Bolded settings are the main ones. Steer force is steering rack + SAT. Grip weight is the light feeling when understeer (the way the FFB is mixed in the game you momentarily lose steering force when the wheel goes light - that's why I set mine to zero). Grip factor is proportion of FFB derived from front wheel (realistically, 100% from front tyres).
FFB Gain="1.00000" // Strength of Force Feedback effects. Range 0.0 to 1.0.
FFB steer force average weight="0.90000" // How much weight is given to new steering force calculations each frame (0.01 - 1.0). Lower values will smooth out the steering force, but will also add latency.
FFB steer force exponent="1.00000" // Steering force output "sensitivity". Range 0.0 to infinity. 0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 = lower sensitivity.
FFB steer force input max="-11500.00000" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if controller pulls in the wrong direction).
FFB steer force output max="2.00000" // Maximum force output of steering force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0
FFB steer force grip weight="0.00000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force.
FFB steer force grip factor="1.00000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6. How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight.
FFB steer update thresh="0.00000" // Amount of change required to update steer force/vibe (0.0 - 1.0). Lower values = steering force updated more frequently = lower frame rate.
FFB steer friction coefficient="0.00000" // Coefficient to use for steering friction. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer friction saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering friction. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB steer damper coefficient="0.00000" // Coefficient to use for steering damper. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer damper saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering damper. Range: 0 - 1.0

LFS is non-moddable so there's no way to see the inner workings of the game. In game settings only shows Gain setting which is a master control. Again you can't really feel the wheel lightening much when understeering.

For Dirt Rally, Codies gives the following explanations (source: http://blog.codemasters.com/dirt/06/dirt-rally-force-feedback-update/). My thoughts are in square brackets.
  • Self Aligning Torque – scales the strength of the steering forces. [SAT + steer rack combined?]
  • Wheel Friction – scales the static friction of the wheel. [sounds to me like parking lot effects]
  • Tyre Friction – scales the dynamic friction of the tyre (this is friction when the tyre is in motion). [probably the light understeer setting]
  • Suspension – scales the information from the road’s surface via the suspension. The harder the impact to the suspension the greater the force felt.
  • Tyre Slip – scales the vibration felt when the rear wheels slip (front wheels are covered by the steering forces). [what I thought was understeer, but it's oversteer, whoops. Also, this means SAT above = SAT + steer rack + front tyre slip?]
  • Collision – scales the strength of impacts to the rigid body
  • Soft Lock – scales the strength of the soft lock effect, the higher the value the stronger the soft lock force.


TLDR: While I agree with you that steering rack, SAT and tyre slip are all different forces in real life, most sims treat (SAT+steer rack) as one setting, and tyre slip as another. In my original post I was just suggesting to @JvM that the reason why hillclimb cars go (too) light when understeering is possibly due to tyre slip setting being too high and he should lower that (not SAT as someone suggested). Though after reading the Codies' explanation above, probably he should try lowering tyre friction instead (sorry JvM!).

paulpg87
No it's called overmoaning. I've read here of people skipping the game due to ffb issues. Yesterday someone posted "non existent" ffb. This is not constructive and doesn't help people that are waiting to judge the game.
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I agree that skipping the game completely just because of FFB is too much. It's really not bad and it has been improved from what was in Early Access. Just that tarmac physics has always been an issue with Codemasters and now that they have a PROPER sim in the form of Dirt Rally, some of us who are OCD about physics/FFB want to see them get it just a littttle more perfect.

No one will ever reach perfection, but it doesn't hurt to aim for it y'know? :) Of course if you are happy to just treat it as a game, then by all means do 👍
 
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PzR Slim
I think people just like to have a moan to be honest. Every ffb and physics system has its own foibles and none of them will ever reach true reality. However, as long as the game is good and fun it's pretty easy to look past them because you should have a smile on your face ;)
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In my case, if something completely odd and distracting rather than helpful happens with the wheel, I like to mention it. Not really 'moaning', but just pointing it out. Either way, I can still enjoy the HC with pad. Also as its one of, if not the fastest way to make money. :) (single stage runs in custom champ is usually what I do). Fun to try getting to know the track more too.

In general, the game is very good indeed, and nice that its very solid on consoles too.

---

@LeGeNd-1 , I will try with all the friction and the tyre slip forces at 0 at some point. But as I mentioned earlier, I think it will still happen. :)
 
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JVM what professional grade of wheel are you using that the issue is so annoying?

Maybe your being a tad overcritical, yet having passion for excellence is no bad thing neither.
If you want to feel the car more on the road and the wheel is a limitation what about tactile units. :)

Remember its only a game (challenging one with authentic aspects of simulation but still a game)
 
@Scaff Here is the Kadett at Sweden, really is well worth a run at Sweden. Hell, even the really iced up sections of Monte Carlo allow this car to shine; just so much fun to throw it around.

 
Mr Latte
JVM what professional grade of wheel are you using that the issue is so annoying?

Maybe your being a tad overcritical, yet having passion for excellence is no bad thing neither.
If you want to feel the car more on the road and the wheel is a limitation what about tactile units. :)

Remember its only a game (challenging one with authentic aspects of simulation but still a game)
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I'm not using any 'professional' wheel. just a G27, it's in my sig. Maybe I should also point out again, that the 'issue' i'm speaking of ONLY happens with hillclimb cars and ONLY on tarmac. :)

Have you tried that combo yet? Although it might not act the same on diff. systems/wheels.



@Ialyrn , My SAT is aroun 75% and most other ones are lower around 20-40%.
 
Ialyrn
PC or PS4? If PC, what are your Logitech profiler settings? No one can help unless you are a bit more forthcoming with information.
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PC, and have played all kinds of sims with the wheel for quite a few years. I wasn't really asking for help as such, cause it's most likely how the game ffb acts atm in that certain combo. But thanks for trying to help.

Logi profile settings are overall effect 100%, others 0%. Allow game to adjust ticked. 900deg.


BTW. g27 isn't working on ps4 I think? Just wondering.
 
JvM
PC, and have played all kinds of sims with the wheel for quite a few years.
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Same here, been playing racing games since 1989.

JvM
I wasn't really asking for help as such, cause it's most likely how the game ffb acts atm in that certain combo. But thanks for trying to help.
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You have an issue with the FFB, you have instantly blamed the game instead of looking at your settings. Not exactly the best way to go about it. Try changing a few things first, and it certainly wont hurt anything to try a few different settings. It is why they are adjustable in the first place, so we can find what we individually like. Sometimes trying settings from another person may help you find 'other' settings you like better.

I use the G27 on PC as well, and I have no issues driving on Pikes Peak tarmac (assume that is what you mean by hill climb).



 
@Ialyrn Thanks, I can surely try those settings. The main reason I 'blamed' the game, is that I don't really see the same behaviour when driving on tarmac in the rally stages, Germany for example.

As far as I know. The damping and center spring are static/constant forces "slowing" or pushing the wheel towards centre. Usually i'm not too fond of those.
 
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Sorry if I'm asking this in the wrong place but do any of you fine chaps happen to know if its possible to map the TH8A shifter to be handbrake on PS4 whilst retaining the ability to keep manual gears with the paddles or are you then stuck with automatic transmission?
 
@Ialyrn , I did just try the settings, and the behaviour is pretty much the same. For the pikes peak cars it seems instantly when theres a little slip with the front tyres (understeer slightly for example) the wheel goes very light. Ofcourse its logical when spinning the tyres completely out of hairpin for example, but in those cases the wheel would pull slightly to the inside of the corner even. Quite weird.

Then I tried Germany stage with the WRC Polo and it felt quite different, and better in similar situations.
 
JvM
@Ialyrn , I did just try the settings, and the behaviour is pretty much the same. For the pikes peak cars it seems instantly when theres a little slip with the front tyres (understeer slightly for example) the wheel goes very light. Ofcourse its logical when spinning the tyres completely out of hairpin for example, but in those cases the wheel would pull slightly to the inside of the corner even. Quite weird.

Then I tried Germany stage with the WRC Polo and it felt quite different, and better in similar situations.
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Try turning 'Tire friction' and 'Tire Slip' to 0%
 
LeGeNd-1
I would turn down "Tyre Slip" effects in wheel settings. This is the effect that makes the wheel goes light when understeering, and I find most games tend to exaggerate this effect.
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Are you going by the name only? Tyre Slip merely triggers a generic rumble effect when the rear tyres break loose.
LeGeNd-1
Also turn off steering center force. This is an old FFB "shortcut" when game physics didn't accurately simulate SAT.
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All Steering Center Force does is return the wheel to centre when the car has been reset.

Rumbles and damping - that's what we're given control over, bar one setting. SAT? It's behaviour doesn't make sense to me. On track, the wheel is so willing to drift and jolt with barely a cause, if any - meanwhile, edge up a steep embankment off track and the wheel will do nothing. Extremely dubious about how the ffb is generated.
Ialyrn
Try turning 'Tire friction' and 'Tire Slip' to 0%
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Non-dynamic (despite their description) damping and rumble respectively. Not going to help.
 
paulpg87
No it's called overmoaning. I've read here of people skipping the game due to ffb issues. Yesterday someone posted "non existent" ffb. This is not constructive and doesn't help people that are waiting to judge the game.
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Skipping the game is bit too much because game is crazy fun, maybe people are used to Project Cars FFB and don't feel front tyre grip in Dirt Rally and therefore are disgruntled. But once you get used to it, FFB is "sufficient". I spent few days after release playing with FFB settings and came up with this (PS4+T300RS)
dirt.jpg

my take on description:
Self Aligning Torque (SAT) is main source of information about what your car is doing in Dirt Rally
Wheel Friction is sort of brake to SAT in its effect
Tyre Friction is just mudding of SAT which I don't prefer.
Suspension ... bumps and other road noise
Tyre Slip is rear tyres effect when you e.g. pull handbrake
Engine is supposed to be vibration from engine? ... I didn't feel any in Mini I used for testing
Collision, Soft Lock, Steering Centre Force ... self-explenatory/good in game description
 
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