Do you really want damage?

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I saw some people in another thread complaining about the lack of damage modelling in GT4. But when you think about it, do you really want damage? The way I see it, I don't think damage would really add that much to the game. Here's why.

First of all, if they chose to do damage in an ultra-realistic fasion just a minor screw-up can send you into a wall at the wrong angle and totally end your race...and who wants that to happen on the 65th lap of an endurence? But if that's going to be how damage is, they might as well not bother and just flash "DNF" on the screen when ever you screw up like that.

On the other hand, if they chose to do a "dents & scrathces" style of modelling, like in PGR and NFS, that would be just as unrealistic as no modelling at all. And personally, I got tired of seeing trashed cars in Hot Pursuit 2, so I turned the damage off. Perhaps if that type of damage modelling were accompanied by performace damage as in GT2, then it would be tolerable. But I'd just as soon have the performance damage without visual.

So basically it's either realism with less fun, or un-realism. And if it's going to be unrealistic then why bother?
 
i say, if you want a game with damage, go with Burnout 1/2/3. I understand why manufacrurers dont want they're beauties damaged. if i had an actual pagani Zonda and i'd scratch it, i would cry.
 
the thing is, damage is the most realistic thing that can happen to a car,and gt4 is the closest thing to the real thing.
 
I personally don´t like visual damage. Cars are nice to look only in pristine condition. Anyone willing to see wrecked cars should go check www.wreckedexotics.com, not GT4.

On the other side, I think that some mechanical damage due to abuse would help keeping endurance races interesting : for example, using max revs over a long period of time should create some sort of overheating, just as in real life. In order to reduce water/oil temp, you would have to use less revs, or less boost in tubo cars (if it was adjustable while racing), thus making more competitive races.
 
Originally posted by Event Horizon
i say, if you want a game with damage, go with Burnout 1/2/3. I understand why manufacrurers dont want they're beauties damaged. if i had an actual pagani Zonda and i'd scratch it, i would cry.
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Indeed. Burnout 3 is going to have the most realistic damage model in a racing game EVER! I mean just look at those videos. The problem with GT using that is it would either end the race or reset the car. And ending the race would be dumb, and resetting the car isn't in the spirit of GT.
 
I don't know what's brewing in the collective minds of Polyphony, but I think that one of their commandments for developing the series is to make a concession between real and simulation - to make the game fun (after all, for the most part, fun sells games).

Honestly, if I make a mistake when I race, I really don't want to pay for it (I am playing a GAME after all). Here's my example: Let's say that you're racing a 10 lapper. You make it 9 1/2 laps mistake free. You're home free when something, anything distracts you and you slam the wall doing 150 kph. If realism and damage were in, you're game should be over - in effect wasting the last 15-20 minutes of your time. That's not fun in my opinion - one of the reasons why I don't play super-sims like the NASCAR or F1 games too often.

But that's just my view. It cannot and does not explain why PD doesn't include car damage as an option.
 
I'd prefer more cars in GT than visible damage.

I would however like more realistic collision physics & car wear etc... (but no so bad it just gets annoying).

I doubt they'll be visible damage in GT5 either.
 
damage modelling would limit the amount of cars because you need different levels of a damaged car, i would by far rather have no damage and 500 cars!
 
g'day this is my first post here.

i read an interview with the head guy for the GT series (i can never remember his name) he's a perfectinast (spelling) and he said that if he was to have damage he would have to crash test each car about 5 times so the model would be perfect. so say 5 x 500 = 2500 cars wrecked, not cheap.

Personaly i like it without damage.
 
Visual damage would be great and here's my opinion...

Some of you say well if I get distracted this or destracted that, oh well your eyes should be on the track, and if you slam into a wall going 150mph then thats your fault, the point of it is to be realistic and make people race the right way and not bounce off walls and cars and not pay for it, that is why since they cannot add visual damage they are adding the penalty system, its there because you must learn how to race the right way or not race at all...

This is a great game but if you wanted to bounce off walls and not pay for it then play the arcade portion of the game but if you want the full flesh real deal then you play the simulation mode plain and simple. Thats why they are both there. I agree if your in a 90lap enduro and your on lap 60 and you crash and lose then well heck doesnt it suck, because in real life if that happened youd be out of luck aswell. now arent I right?

Before visual damage I myself would actually like to see the cars get dirty and put that car wash to better use.. i mean you dont race around a rally track for like 10laps and all your car as is a dull shine, they same with the rims. After a 10lap rally race I like to see actual mud and dirty on both the car and rims/tires, and for the raceing around the track why not add a tad bit of dirt when you drive off the track or race for a long time and not wash your car.... I mean for top races I want to be rejected from entering the series just because I need a super clean car to enter.. but oh well sorry for going off topic... To me visual damage has two side, the up side is with visual damage you open up alot more options, from buying new body parts, being rejected from races because your cars all dented up or haveing your car be un-driveable because of that bumper hanging off etc... Having mechanical damage along with visual is a must, because if your tranny goes bad you need to buy a new one etc... After awhile your engine gets slower and you need to buy that "upgrade" again to gain it back... Well all in all I doubt we'll see visual damage because they did say that some manufacturers don't want it because they know how perfect PD is and if they wont let it happen in GT4 then I doubt they'll let it happen on the PS3 or PS4 etc.. because the game will only get better and better, visually and mechanically. So yes I highly doubt we'll ever see it in any GT game but if we had the choice I'd have to vote for Yes.
 
Originally posted by Rport03
Visual damage would be great and here's my opinion...

Some of you say well if I get distracted this or destracted that, oh well your eyes should be on the track, and if you slam into a wall going 150mph then thats your fault, the point of it is to be realistic and make people race the right way and not bounce off walls and cars and not pay for it, that is why since they cannot add visual damage they are adding the penalty system, its there because you must learn how to race the right way or not race at all...

This is a great game but if you wanted to bounce off walls and not pay for it then play the arcade portion of the game but if you want the full flesh real deal then you play the simulation mode plain and simple. Thats why they are both there. I agree if your in a 90lap enduro and your on lap 60 and you crash and lose then well heck doesnt it suck, because in real life if that happened youd be out of luck aswell. now arent I right?
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Here's one thing that doesn't sit well with me: "make people race the right way " or any other argument to the effect of "forcing" people to drive perfectly or near perfectly.

You have to remember, you're playing a GAME. Games are supposed provide fun. Forcing a certain playstyle (in this case, somewhat flawless driving) limits two important factors for games: gameplay and accessibility. Limiting those things can almost guarantee a noticable (negative) difference in sales. True, some games such as the Metal Gears, Zeldas and Gran Turismos sell themselves, but why even attempt at narrowing your core audience (as in the case of what the Forza and Enthusia developers want)?

The only other thing that I wanted to address was contained in your second paragraph above. To prematurely end a 60 lap race (no matter the circumstances) does suck...it's amount of suckitude is near endless. I really can't see WHY you want to do that to gamers. I can see argument stating that you'd include something like that for the sake of realism, but think about it. If I were a game designer, the last thing on my list of things to add to this kind of game is some way to harshly penalize gamers for mistakes. Risk versus rewards go well with other games, but I can't see it being any kind of benefit to the GT series.
 
Originally posted by Rport03
now arent I right?
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You're entitled to your opinion - don't get arrogant about it.

Realism is all very well and good but you have to draw a line. This is fantasy ok? You're not driving a car, you're staring at a bunch of multicoloured dots. No matter how much money and belief you put into it, they're still dots. They're being put there by an electrical signal from a few pieces of silicon and metal. That's as real as you're getting here. I'm a die-hard Formula 1 fan. I like to believe that screaming at the TV as races transpire in some way affects their outcome. It brings me closer to the event and the people really there. But I still know deep down nothing can compare to the real thing, and all I'm really doing is pretending.

I don't want to have to train for years, put on a fireproof suit, driving shoes, gloves, a helmet and then sit infront of a TV for 3 hours without pissing for the sake of realism. If you do then there's probably a fetish site out there catering for your interest, but I'm not a member.

Oh and btw engines do indeed wear down in GT3, but only to a certain extent. I'd love to see parts wear, have to take care of the cars brakes, oil, the engine itself. I think that'd be great. That is another level of realism that can't be that hard to add that isn't that giant a punishment either - by the time newbies get to endurance races where they need to conserve the car, they should know how to do so.

Savman: Welcome to GTPlanet!
 
Welcome to GTPlanet, Savman. Now let's see what think about car damage.

If you ask me, I'll tell you why there is car damage in more popular titles than in GT. This is because when EA unleashed "Need for Speed: High Stakes," EA was able to work out a deal with other car companies. The deal was so close and tight that the cars had different-styled damage systems. So headlights blow out, front-ends were damaged, windshields were blown out, you name it. And if you look at Burnout (a game series I've never played yet), the cars are fictional. It's the only way to get around making cars with car damage. If you don't use real car names or you make real cars but not look exactly like the real-life counterparts (for example, play Midnight Club 2 or the upcoming Driv3r), then car damage is perfectly fine.

But me personally, I'd rather keep my cars shiny and clean than tattered and torn like a pair of jeans. Getting damage models for 500+ cars is too much work and I'd rather fly off the Laguna Seca corkscrew and bang into a tire wall violently than smash my car up at Monaco.

So, there you go. Have fun.
 
T5-R: Realistic collision physics are a must. I'm amased at how much of a beating cars can take in GT without being thrown around a lot. Watch real auto racing, and a lot of contact incidents send people off the track or into a wall backwards.

Rport: Not everyone can be perfect. More importantly, those telemarketers always know the exact worst times to call you. You'll be on lap 23 of a Nürburgring race, in a heated battle with an AI car. Then, right as you enter the Karussel, a phone call disrupts your concentration. Wereas in real racing, as you make the the analogy to, there are no distractions.

Anyway, I think the best solution to this would be to have different difficulty settings, where Pro is the ultra-realistic DNF crashes, Amateur is the internal damage + dents & scratches, and Beginner is no damage. But think of the trade-offs. You can get 200 more cars, 50 more tracks, and have it 6 months or more sooner by not making them do damage.
 
I want damage. Lots of damage. I mean, sure, sometimes I like to just drive around and do donuts, ram the computer off the course, and what not. I can use Arcade Mode for that. But, the game is called the "Real Driving Simulator" for a reason. True, it would take some extra time to work out the damage models and what not, but personally, it would be worth it.

Like people said before me, in real racing, even the smallest bump or hit on the wall can really mess up a car. I mean, they can just make it an option to turn on. Or, like the did with the tire wear in GT3, they could have it not in effect during the Beginner league, and then come on later in the higher Amateur and Pro Leagues. By the time you get there, you should be good enough to avoid walls and other cars. At that point, if you hit a wall on the last turn of an enduro or 10-lapper and end the race, tough luck. Get better and try again. To me, it would just make for soo much more realistic racing.

I mean, take the F1 race last weekend for example. Schumacher was running very well in the race, and probably would have pulled a 3rd, or even 2nd place finish out of the race. But, while under a caution, he unexpectedly braked hard, and while trying to avoid a direct rear-end hit, Montoya bumped wheels with him. That sent Schuey into the wall, and out of the race. Tough luck, for sure, but thats racing. In real racing, you can just as easily get put out of a race as easily as you can wreck yourself out. Its just part of real racing, and I really want to see it. Just make it an option, so all the arcade racers are happy. But, there are some of us out here that want realistic racing.

Hilg
 
I think one of the staples of the GT series has been making everyone complete the game at the same level. We all had to suffer tyre wear, oil levels, the AI was always the same, the level of challenge was never different because of things we had control over. This way everyone gets 100% in the same way, we all complete the same game, no one can say someone else didn't 'really' complete the game or certain events. Not having options makes it decisive, black and white, clear cut. I've no doubt that will remain.
 
I for one want the most realistic damage a game has ever seen in Gran Turismo. Toca 2 was a good start but I would like to see it taken all the way. 20mph into a wall and its over would be frustrating but at the same time an incredible experience.
 
I meant make it an option in Arcade mode. But, like I said in my first post, it should just be 'ON' full time in Simulation mode. Like I said before, they could just have it come in progressively like the tire wear did in GT3. You could have none in Beginner, then have it in the full 10-race (or whatever) championships in Amateur, and then every race in Pro. If you hit things and put yourself out of a race once you made it to Pro league, you need more practice. It would just make for real racing.

Hilg
 
Damage is the major thing missing, as of now reckless stupid driving doesnt punish you alot. And if you mess on the 65th race then tough luck! It happens, youre just not good enough for 65 tracks then. Live with it.
 
An incredible experience? o_O Incredible in just what way? Incredible in that it's, dare I say it, not credible? That I can agree with.

Sorry JNasty, misunderstood where it would be an option.
 
I guess, what I see here is just the big problem with having a huge game like this. With big games, you have many people who love the game, and they all want something different. Its understandable, everyone is different. But I, personally, would like to see the game progress to that point. Its just such a huge part of racing. I mean, damage is like 75% of the reason for cars doing well or very poorly in a WRC race. Hit a wall, hit a rock, hit a tree, anything like that can instantly end your weekend.

I guess, to me, thats just what makes watching races exciting. Not knowing whats going to happen is what keeps me interested. I mean, the way it is now in GT3, if you just happen to get way out to a lead, its almost impossible to lose. Its just not that fun once you get to that point.

Here's another example from F1 to help describe what I mean. Back in 2000, at the first F1 race at Indy, Schuey was just dominating. He had a very sizeable lead over Rubens who was in 2nd. But, with only like 2-3 laps left, going into the first corner after the long front straight, he got on the gas a little early, spun the car backwards and had to circle onto the grass to get back on. Just a little brain-lapse, and he spins out. Probably only lost about 10-20 seconds, so it didn't really matter with the lead he had. But, what if he didn't?? What if that happened to Trulli at Monaco last weekend?? He had JB right dead behind him. If either of them slipped up, it was a sure win for the other driver. Thats just part of racing.

I want to be interested in the races I'm completing in the game, not just going through the motions. I want to feel like I acomplished something if I finish the entire game, not that I just took the time to complete the races. Thats all. I just want the game to progress to that level. They have the realism factor going very good with what they have now, they just need to implement more features and it would be perfect. Like the much talked about gas mileage, or the body and engine damage that we've discused here. All of those, along with tire wear and car set-up, are big factors in real racing, and to me, it could only make the game better if they were all incorporated some how.

Hilg
 
I think damage would be a great feature. If I was looking to jack around in an arcade game, I would play one.

In GT4, I am playing a simulator to simulate an accurate racing envirionment.

In real life, the number one limiting factor in how close to the edge you can drive your car is the level of fear you have, and your desire to not ball your car up in the tirewall - especially if its a car you paid for.

If you were in a 70 lap race, you would adjust your driving style, because you would be aware that to win, you'd first have to finish. Ideally, the AI would adjust its driving style also.

I don't care if the damage is super-impressive visually - its the adition of risk to the experience that would increase the realizm.

I had a nascar PC game a while back... the white-knuckled intensity one experienced on a yellow-flag restart, in the final laps of the Daytona 500, diving into turn 1 3-wide, with certain destruction rumbling along each side of you at 190 mph provided a gaming experience that sent sweat running down your back. Without damage, I could bump and rub my way up through the field, knowning that the only risk was a stupid-looking replay.

On the other hand, with the AI experienced in GT so far, the introduction of damge would send the entire field home on a flatbed by the end of turn 2, so maybe its not such a good idea.
 
Originally posted by Greyout
On the other hand, with the AI experienced in GT so far, the introduction of damge would send the entire field home on a flatbed by the end of turn 2, so maybe its not such a good idea.
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:lol: That is very funny indeed!!
 
Originally posted by Greyout
On the other hand, with the AI experienced in GT so far, the introduction of damge would send the entire field home on a flatbed by the end of turn 2, so maybe its not such a good idea.
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LOL, yep.
 
Originally posted by JNasty4G63
I guess, what I see here is just the big problem with having a huge game like this. With big games, you have many people who love the game, and they all want something different. Its understandable, everyone is different. But I, personally, would like to see the game progress to that point. Its just such a huge part of racing. I mean, damage is like 75% of the reason for cars doing well or very poorly in a WRC race. Hit a wall, hit a rock, hit a tree, anything like that can instantly end your weekend.

I guess, to me, thats just what makes watching races exciting. Not knowing whats going to happen is what keeps me interested. I mean, the way it is now in GT3, if you just happen to get way out to a lead, its almost impossible to lose. Its just not that fun once you get to that point.

Here's another example from F1 to help describe what I mean. Back in 2000, at the first F1 race at Indy, Schuey was just dominating. He had a very sizeable lead over Rubens who was in 2nd. But, with only like 2-3 laps left, going into the first corner after the long front straight, he got on the gas a little early, spun the car backwards and had to circle onto the grass to get back on. Just a little brain-lapse, and he spins out. Probably only lost about 10-20 seconds, so it didn't really matter with the lead he had. But, what if he didn't?? What if that happened to Trulli at Monaco last weekend?? He had JB right dead behind him. If either of them slipped up, it was a sure win for the other driver. Thats just part of racing.

I want to be interested in the races I'm completing in the game, not just going through the motions. I want to feel like I acomplished something if I finish the entire game, not that I just took the time to complete the races. Thats all. I just want the game to progress to that level. They have the realism factor going very good with what they have now, they just need to implement more features and it would be perfect. Like the much talked about gas mileage, or the body and engine damage that we've discused here. All of those, along with tire wear and car set-up, are big factors in real racing, and to me, it could only make the game better if they were all incorporated some how.

Hilg
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Some solid points. I feel the same way about GT3, and it's simplistic (stupid, quite frankly) A.I.. I've also played Papyrus' NASCAR games and they are a perfect example of how damage should be handled in a game. Here are my reasons why I think damage should be incorporated.

1: It can be toggled off in multiplayer, free runs, single races and anything that isnt part of the main championships, and then again, it could ramp up depending on the difficulty chosen.

2. It looks cool. Face it, seeing cars destroyed is at the same time depressing and intensely gratifying. That's why there are games out that exploit that feature as core gameplay (destruction derby, GTA, Driver series, etc.). Seeing parts fly off your car, sheetmetal crumple, dents and scratches manifest themselves on the surface and, although not exactly damage, dirt and debris accumulate on the car all adds to the feeling that you are actually driving the thing. Colin Mcrae 04 even has different kinds of dirt and dust with varying degrees of saturation.

3. It gives the game an edge, keeps you on your toes and most importantly, it keeps you interested in the racing. I've dozed off a few times doing enduros and test track races in GT3 because there was simply no challenge. In fact, when you are out in front of the pack, it's almost a challenge to LOSE. Toca driver 2 uses the damage to take away that smug complacence (spelling?) while you are in the lead, and keep you focused on not screwing up instead of counting down the laps until you can win the prize car.

After all, the GT series is supposed to immerse you in the driving environment. Don't you ever get a wierd, dissatisfied feeling when you use other opponents as airbags or "ride the railings" to safety whenever you brake too late? Would you rather experience that dull thud and gradual deceleration from banging off walls, or a heart-rending "crunch!" accompied by mangled bodywork and limping internals? For those that argue it wouldn't be "fun", yet rag on games like Project Gotham for "not being realistic", what I can ask is: Was going through the pits to change worn tires "fun" in GT3? Not exactly, but it added to the game, and that's what proper damage would do. And even don't say it can't be done because uncle Kaz said "it has to be perfect". It's not an excuse, because bouncing around like a jack hammer is far from perfect, and blemishes the game much more than less-than-completely-convincing crash physics.
 
Trashing cars is fun.

The only people who say that GT doesn't need it are kidding them selves, as they don't like admiting its a flaw. There have been MANY games with many car brands with damage, so blaming the car makes is bull****e. So you crashed on the 65th lap? tough. it happens in real life, and GT4 is meant to be super realistic, so deal with it. I also think the player should pay for damages on his car, and that the AI should respect other cars ie. not want to trash it's own.

Best damage in a game? Carmagedon 2. Best looking damaged? RSC2.

flatout looks good too :D
 
Originally posted by JNasty4G63
I mean... I mean... But, there are some of us out here that want realistic racing.
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I mean, you would not like the game with realistic damage, for the exact reason Sven states - it would not be fun.

Cheers,

MasterGT
 
Originally posted by JNasty4G63
I mean, the way it is now in GT3, if you just happen to get way out to a lead, its almost impossible to lose. Its just not that fun once you get to that point.
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We all know that GT is not perfect (yet), but this issue is being addressed in the final GT4. We will soon find out how much "fun" it will be with an alligator on our tail, throughout a race.

Cheers,

MasterGT
 
It seems alot of those that are against damage are "afraid" that;
oh no I had the lead but I messed up and lost,
I didnt see that turn

Why dont we do then also do that if you take the lead but the oponets catch up to you then they slow down so you wont loose that precious lead you so deserve to loose


If you have damage then you gain more tactical game play, you dont do crazy driving on the last lap if youre 1st .

And if you only play to win and not winning is a waste then you maybe are playing the wrong game. You could allways allow to have no damage on "beginners" mode.
 

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