Do you think perhaps Kaz's interest in GT as a game is actually waning? (TITLE EDITED

[Devedander]

A whole mess like GT5

But the commercial is about chewy fruit candy... not chocolate bars with caramel...

 

[Akira AC]

But the commercial is about chewy fruit candy... not chocolate bars with caramel...

Sorry for me,I didn't had audio,looks remarkable similar to a chocolate bar CM.

 

[Tenacious D]

I swear tennacious has some kind of freak power when it comes to turning a thread into a Forza Vs GT thread...

Well, while this is true, you did bring up Turn 10 and Vietnam as if VN Was some sort of secret Taiwan or something, and outsourcing hasn't had any issues with Forza. Maybe I stepped in some kryptonite today.

Oh well, gonna see about a patch. Sayonara.

 

[Devedander]

Sorry for me,I didn't had audio,looks remarkable similar to a chocolate bar CM.

You see why I was confused!

Well, while this is true, you did bring up Turn 10 and Vietnam as if VN Was some sort of secret Taiwan or something, and outsourcing hasn't had any issues with Forza. Maybe I stepped in some kryptonite today.

Oh well, gonna see about a patch. Sayonara.

Actually I brought up racism and a certain user who always brings up Vietname specifically.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Ugh. I had a fair-sized response typed out this morning to add to the discussion, because it's been a thought that's crossed my mind for a while too. Unfortunately, I see the thread has degraded for the same reasons a bunch of others have in the past. So forget that. Since it is always the same people who bring up the same other game, I'm going to address this.

Headlights having little to no use in darkness: not my experience, sorry. Your experience may vary.

Do you have a copy of GT5 that is different from the retail one? Or have you not yet done the Gran Tour race in Special Events with the Murcielago at night on Toscana? If you haven't, then that would explain it.

You've asked for specific examples from Terronium in regards to the Lambos. Good. You've been asked to provide specific examples of something from Lucas. Your response was this:

1. I have every right to be as ridiculous as the person I'm debating with.

Now, I'm asking:

Just so we're clear; you are aware that you're just now putting words in peoples' mouths (posts), right? I don't see the reasoning behind it other than kicking some dirt up under the guise of some imagined version of another member's opinion. And we do have some words to describe that kind of behaviour. It's a little late to play the sarcasm card, too. If you have a problem with Dev, or he has a problem with you, or if anybody has a problem with anybody else, that's fine, and to be expected around here at some level. Making knowingly inaccurate claims to further some done-to-death argument (that's off-topic no less, and has been warned against countless times in the past) isn't acceptable. It ends here.

For everyone: This thread is about GT. Discuss the title topic.

 

[Devedander]

You should still post your long rosponse... I am interested.

 

[Terronium-12]

You should still post your long rosponse... I am interested.

Agreed.

As for the providing of proof, I'll do no such thing. Why? So it can be inexplicably excused in some fashion? I'll save myself the (waste of) time and revoke that statement, if necessary.

 

[Destinkeys]

For everyone: This thread is about GT. Discuss the title topic.

Can't believe I'm reading this from a moderator. How do you discuss something without comparison? Games don't exist in a vacuum. When other games get so much right that has been ignored in GT5, even though some of their technical aspects may be crude compared to GT5, there's room for discussion. Even if you refer back to the OP and original topic, Kaz is just one of MANY game designers. His successes and failures can only be appreciated by comparison to others' successes and failures.

There's a difference between passion, and focus. People with ADD often are VERY passionate, just only for a few minutes (or seconds!). Personally, either from corporate pressure, or just from the myriad things we are shown Kaz doing that AREN'T coding for a game, I believe he has gotten a form of game ADD. Distracted by 3D, distracted by additional game elements, distracted by spending so much time on REAL racing (sure hasn't equated to real car sounds, collisions or AI behavior!), he has forgotten about what the CORE needs of the gamer are. Sure, he's passionate. But about too many things. It seems to me, at least, and to many I read here, that some of the NEW stuff is amazing. But some of the CORE, old stuff seems to have slipped into the cracks. And much of the new stuff ISN'T amazing, and if Kaz were the guy he used to be, he'd have cut it out in preference to what he knew gamers actually WANT.

Many have commented that GT5's in game path is shorter than it used to be... OK. I'll buy that. I'll buy that Kaz knew about it, too. So, where is the massive increase in an online path to compensate? "Coming... maybe. But look what we did with 3D! Look at the head tracking! Look.... a squirrel!"

Focus is the sign of TRUE passion. What would the great works of art have looked like if the artist had decided to do something else instead half way through? Whenever that DID happen, you rarely got the spark shown by single minded focus.

GT5 does not exist in a vacuum. Features from Forza and Shift and many other games show that Kaz is not God. Things CAN be done better than GT5. And no amount of pretending they don't exist won't show where Kaz could improve the gaming experience.

 

[side_winder_9]

interest waning? no way man, not by a long shot, this game is part of who Kaz is, its his creation.

it is definetely unfinished though, just by looking at some of the aero parts options for some cars (eg the rx-7), and the fact that theres no ae86 premium model, even though it is described as being one of the most popular cars in the world.....

 

[dominic280378]

Can't believe I'm reading this from a moderator. How do you discuss something without comparison? Games don't exist in a vacuum. When other games get so much right that has been ignored in GT5, even though some of their technical aspects may be crude compared to GT5, there's room for discussion. Even if you refer back to the OP and original topic, Kaz is just one of MANY game designers. His successes and failures can only be appreciated by comparison to others' successes and failures.

There's a difference between passion, and focus. People with ADD often are VERY passionate, just only for a few minutes (or seconds!). Personally, either from corporate pressure, or just from the myriad things we are shown Kaz doing that AREN'T coding for a game, I believe he has gotten a form of game ADD. Distracted by 3D, distracted by additional game elements, distracted by spending so much time on REAL racing (sure hasn't equated to real car sounds, collisions or AI behavior!), he has forgotten about what the CORE needs of the gamer are. Sure, he's passionate. But about too many things. It seems to me, at least, and to many I read here, that some of the NEW stuff is amazing. But some of the CORE, old stuff seems to have slipped into the cracks. And much of the new stuff ISN'T amazing, and if Kaz were the guy he used to be, he'd have cut it out in preference to what he knew gamers actually WANT.

Many have commented that GT5's in game path is shorter than it used to be... OK. I'll buy that. I'll buy that Kaz knew about it, too. So, where is the massive increase in an online path to compensate? "Coming... maybe. But look what we did with 3D! Look at the head tracking! Look.... a squirrel!"

Focus is the sign of TRUE passion. What would the great works of art have looked like if the artist had decided to do something else instead half way through? Whenever that DID happen, you rarely got the spark shown by single minded focus.

GT5 does not exist in a vacuum. Features from Forza and Shift and many other games show that Kaz is not God. Things CAN be done better than GT5. And no amount of pretending they don't exist won't show where Kaz could improve the gaming experience.

I agree with you 100%, I was actually working on starting a thread with a pretty long opening post with what my impressions are after playing for nearly 3 weeks when I read this. I'm really glad that some people are delighted with the game and wish them all the best, but the refusal to analyze or criticise the game is a bit much.

 

[Nielsen]

Gran Turismo is his job. A job cannot be compared to how you may lose interest in your hobbies from time to time.

 

[amar212]

Focus is the sign of TRUE passion. What would the great works of art have looked like if the artist had decided to do something else instead half way through? Whenever that DID happen, you rarely got the spark shown by single minded focus.

GT5 does not exist in a vacuum. Features from Forza and Shift and many other games show that Kaz is not God. Things CAN be done better than GT5. And no amount of pretending they don't exist won't show where Kaz could improve the gaming experience.

Without any urge to go deeper into this discussion I will try to elaborate two bolded parts of your post which I find most important.

First, FOCUS is subjective thing, what YOU find as a FOCUS probably isn't FOCUS of another person. Apply that to you and Kaz, or your girlfriend or neighbur, whatever. You may have expectations about your personal and subjective view on someone's FOCUS, but that does not need to be linked to what other persons FOCUS is made of.

Secondly, you may also reverse what you said regarding THINGS and easily notice that both Forza and Shift - which you use as an Vacuum-agrument - do not have plethora of things that GT5 exclusively offers. Where are the 16-cars grids in both games? where is the 60fps on consoles for Shift? Where are the day/night changes in both games? Weather engine too? How about moving aerodynamnic parts on corresponding vehicles? Why both games have no Course Maker? Where are the high-res photo-outputs? What about insane community features in both games? Where is online Qualify in both of them? Why Shift on consoles never got patch for physics? WHERE IS THE FOCUS ABOUT THINGS, HALOOOOOO?!?!?!?!?!

Understand?

Coin have two sides, and three if you put the edge into equation.

Try to think before you make your personal assumption sound like universal fact.

 

[Lucas]

Do you have a copy of GT5 that is different from the retail one? Or have you not yet done the Gran Tour race in Special Events with the Murcielago at night on Toscana? If you haven't, then that would explain it.

You've asked for specific examples from Terronium in regards to the Lambos. Good. You've been asked to provide specific examples of something from Lucas. Your response was this:



Now, I'm asking:

Just so we're clear; you are aware that you're just now putting words in peoples' mouths (posts), right? I don't see the reasoning behind it other than kicking some dirt up under the guise of some imagined version of another member's opinion. And we do have some words to describe that kind of behaviour. It's a little late to play the sarcasm card, too. If you have a problem with Dev, or he has a problem with you, or if anybody has a problem with anybody else, that's fine, and to be expected around here at some level. Making knowingly inaccurate claims to further some done-to-death argument (that's off-topic no less, and has been warned against countless times in the past) isn't acceptable. It ends here.

For everyone: This thread is about GT. Discuss the title topic.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you...
Thank you for stopping this madness.

Can't believe I'm reading this from a moderator. How do you discuss something without comparison?

You are not asked to compare GT to other franchises. You can just compare GT5 to previous GT games, and that is enough. At least that's what I think.

 

[Devedander]

Gran Turismo is his job. A job cannot be compared to how you may lose interest in your hobbies from time to time.

I was not comparing them, I was noting a parallel... you will note I said that I have experienced the same occurance both in my hobbies as well as my jobs.

It's just human nature and as such it will exist in all areas.

 

[MeechShrykull]

Yes, he obviously doesn't care about the "game" portion of it. The unlockable system is terrible. Making 99.9% of all prize cars purchasable completely ruins the surprise and reward of prize cars.

 

[Destinkeys]

I believe that nails it. Kaz cares about CARS... he just no longer cares about car GAMES. Now he can afford the real thing!

And to the two previous posters indignant that the mere mention of any other racing game was mentioned on these hallowed grounds... Grow up! First of all, I NEVER brought these games up as evidence of superiority overall. Don't invent stuff I haven't written. But there are ASPECTS of their games, and VERY important aspects to a gamer, that they get right and GT5 doesn't. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

And, Jeez.... the thought that GT5 can ONLY be compared to GT4/3/2 etc.... I shouldn't even dignify that with a response, but, what the hell!

I guess that blonds should ONLY be compared to other blonds, and brunettes shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. But when you are talking about GIRLS, how do you do that..? Only blond fetishists would consider that. And that is how I view many GT5 fanboys.

Fetishists.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

He isn't losing interest. He didn't want GT5 out because it wasn't done. Sony shoved him out of the way and started distributing copies. He would have taken forever, because he's a perfectionist. A perfectionist feels bad when he does something wrong. Kaz might feel like this sometimes, and then he goes out, and he does more, with a vengeance.

I'm a perfectionist. That's why I can explain.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

This thread wouldn't exsist, if GT5 was anywhere near the game it would, could, and should have been, in the standing tradition of the series.

IMHO this is a direct result of Sony's influence at PD.

I'm doubtful Kaz's interest, has anything to do with it.

Likewise it doesn't appear to hold sway anymore.

Given the current circumstances, my biggest concern is if we have seen the last of the the true greatness in the GT series that made it the "standout" game from all others and endeared many to it's uniqueness.

 

[Devedander]

He isn't losing interest. He didn't want GT5 out because it wasn't done. Sony shoved him out of the way and started distributing copies. He would have taken forever, because he's a perfectionist. A perfectionist feels bad when he does something wrong. Kaz might feel like this sometimes, and then he goes out, and he does more, with a vengeance.

I'm a perfectionist. That's why I can explain.

The main reason I have a hard time with a perfectionist being forced to release as the reason behind GT5 is that if that were the case, wouldn't a lot of GT5 be pretty much perfected by now and only the new features less than done?

 

[Luminis]

This thread wouldn't exsist, if GT5 was anywhere near the game it would, could, and should have been, in the standing tradition of the series.

Quoted for truth.

IMHO this is a direct result of Sony's influence at PD.

This on the other hand is something I've read often, but I kinda think it's a strange point to make.
I mean, Kazunori is SCE's vice president. With such a high position at SCE, it seems kinda strange that someone would be able to force a lot of stuff upon him.

 

[Devedander]

Quoted for truth.


This on the other hand is something I've read often, but I kinda think it's a strange point to make.
I mean, Kazunori is SCE's vice president. With such a high position at SCE, it seems kinda strange that someone would be able to force a lot of stuff upon him.

Exactly... if anything I think this is another way in which Kaz's passion for the GT game (compared to how it was when he started) has changed... he now has a passion for a lot of other things that sometimes conflict with creating the game he became so famous for...

Back in the day his one focus was making the GT game and he did. Now his focuses include GT acadamy, advertising licensing with car companies and SCE business... all of which take his time, mental focus and may change his point of view and or direction with the game to meet those other goals. It's like a guy getting promoted from mailroom to VP... when he was in the mailroom he was all about efficient mail delivery and giving good service, suddenly as VP his goals now change to cutting costs and outsroucing to save revenue even at cost of efficiency and quality of service.

I mean look at the redbull X1... what if as part of his advertising tie in's he was given a lot of money to work closely with redbull to get that in the game... maybe that time could have been used to make more premium cars or get weather on a few more stages... but since his focus is not entirely on GT as a game anymore, he chose to allocate time and resources to what is ultimately an advertising opportunity related to GT.

I again am not saying that's how it happened, but it's certainly a plausible situation for many such examples.

 

[Tornado]

The Nike 2022 from GT4 certainly didn't just happen because PD wanted it, either.

 

[AGNT009]

If he was focusing on the marketing, etc, wouldnt that be putting the kart before the horse? If he loses even a fraction of focus on the game itself, as it does appear he did, the empire will eventually crumble. Boast all you want, but when you release a game full of bugs and needs heavy patch work, people will only tolerate your BS marketing ploys for so long.

 

[Devedander]

If he was focusing on the marketing, etc, wouldnt that be putting the kart before the horse? If he loses even a fraction of focus on the game itself, as it does appear he did, the empire will eventually crumble. Boast all you want, but when you release a game full of bugs and needs heavy patch work, people will only tolerate your BS marketing ploys for so long.

I can't tell if you knowingly basically described what has more or less happened with GT5...

 

[UWanq]

Dont know if anyone else has posted on this but Kaz and PD seems to of had a lot of trobule making compromises with the hardware to squeeze in all the content initially laid out.

It was my friend who pointed out that the PS3 only has 256mb of ram which in this day and age is tres petite. Now if u imagine online with 16 hi res cars, (Premium,) voice chat, weather, smoke or water vapours etc this takes up an awful lot of resource bandwidth. Now throw into that trying to make everthing run at 60 fps, full anti alaising with a dash of 1080p and 3d that's a mighty big sandwich for 256 mb ram to chew at once!

I know and understand that RAM isnt everything and the processors in the ps3 are exceptional. But I remember the early articles i read on the net regarding what Kaz wanted in the game and I have the final product I for one can see compromises on a lot of things. Bare in mind that he also made a lot of compromises on gt4 to which was still a very well rounded game by all accounts.
... I wouldn't be surprised to see a PS3.1 before PS4 comes out....

 

[Luminis]

Dont know if anyone else has posted on this but Kaz and PD seems to of had a lot of trobule making compromises with the hardware to squeeze in all the content initially laid out.

You know, laying out the content without keeping the hardware in mind isn't an excuse, it's a plain moronic fault.

People would lose their jobs if they did stuff like that at the company I'm working at.

 

[UWanq]

You know, laying out the content without keeping the hardware in mind isn't an excuse, it's a plain moronic fault.

People would lose their jobs if they did stuff like that at the company I'm working at.

I totally agree with you on this point as a software developer it's a commandment laid in stone

 

[Devedander]

Dont know if anyone else has posted on this but Kaz and PD seems to of had a lot of trobule making compromises with the hardware to squeeze in all the content initially laid out.

It was my friend who pointed out that the PS3 only has 256mb of ram which in this day and age is tres petite. Now if u imagine online with 16 hi res cars, (Premium,) voice chat, weather, smoke or water vapours etc this takes up an awful lot of resource bandwidth. Now throw into that trying to make everthing run at 60 fps, full anti alaising with a dash of 1080p and 3d that's a mighty big sandwich for 256 mb ram to chew at once!

I know and understand that RAM isnt everything and the processors in the ps3 are exceptional. But I remember the early articles i read on the net regarding what Kaz wanted in the game and I have the final product I for one can see compromises on a lot of things. Bare in mind that he also made a lot of compromises on gt4 to which was still a very well rounded game by all accounts.
... I wouldn't be surprised to see a PS3.1 before PS4 comes out....

I will also point out that these system specs were known from the get go and trying to use them as rational for the final product would be like a carpenter making a char with only 3 extra long legs and explaining it as "I didn't have enough wood for the 4th".

I don't think anyones questioning why we see what we see from a hardware performance standpoint, but rather why we see what we see from a decision making standpoint.

 

[Tenacious D]

The usual Tenacious wall of text is coming.

I mean look at the redbull X1... what if as part of his advertising tie in's he was given a lot of money to work closely with redbull to get that in the game... maybe that time could have been used to make more premium cars or get weather on a few more stages... but since his focus is not entirely on GT as a game anymore, he chose to allocate time and resources to what is ultimately an advertising opportunity related to GT.

Dev, you sure think strangely, and this is why people have so much trouble dealing with you sometimes. Your above example is a great example. You just kind of glom a bunch of notions together which have nothing to do with each other.

Okay, the Red Bull X1 prototype was a big project, but the bulk of that work was done by their F1 head guy, Adrian Newey, and his team, as covered here: GT5 TO STAR NEWEY’S DREAM MACHINE Quoting:

(Adrian and Kazunori) came together at Newey’s offices in Milton Keynes in the UK where Yamauchi threw out the rulebook to give the car designer a blank canvas on which to create a virtual machine that would push the very boundaries of motorsports. That car is the X1 Prototype.

And yes, PD modelers and coders did build and paint the car - virtually - and assign parameters to it, but it was just one car. There was no mention of whether a group of modelers and programmers went on the expedition too, and I'm assuming they didn't. Maybe you do, but we have no indication of this, and it would make sense that they didn't because this was Adrian's baby and he had his own team of designers there. It was a PR-slash-dream inclusion, and as such involved the PR and advertising people of SONY Computer Entertainment.

I suppose you could say that when Kaz was galavanting around the world, that the team back in Japan just kind of did whatever the heck they wanted to because The Master was gone and the kids could run free. Crazy ideas were proposed and acted on without any guidance from their boss. But that would be a pretty hard supposition to support.

You do this kind of random thinking too much. It's like when you mentioned a few days ago about NASA taking bids on production work for their stuff and signing cheaper bidders, and how this caused no small problem for Apollo 13. Yeah, true. But then, isn't this the same issue when I mention Turn 10 hiring work from Vietnam? Bottom dollar versus quality? But no, you and Lucas have to turn it into racism instead of dealing with the substance of the matter.

You just pick and chose stuff, decide what's relevant in your discussions arbitrarily. By the way Lucas, go (somewhere) and (do something). Have fun with that.

I have a feeling you've mentioned that the online system is broken because PD just wasn't focused on what to do with it, rather than the fact that SONY didn't have the online structure in place they hoped they did to handle GT5. Let's discuss this. It's obvious that there was some kind of disconnect between PD and SONY with how much traffic could be devoted to the game. GT5 is way too connected to the internet, even to the point that the menu system is. So on the first day or so, we were told to unhook our PS3s if they weren't running smoothly. Something I unfortunately missed because I hadn't got around to installing my game till saturday, but oh well. Anyway, the network SONY has in place now couldn't handle the online game Kaz wanted to build, which sounded like something even BIGGER than GT4 by a quantum leap. He wanted all that, user race builder tools, online leagues and seasons as well, not just a bunch of private servers and leaderboards. Unfortunately, SONY has to invest a bunch more in their PS Network for this to happen. Right now, it just can't. So the online team had to cobble something together, which right now isn't a whole lot. Sad but true.

Yes, bad communication, bad planning. Because Kaz got tired and was losing interest in GT5? Sincerely doubt it. What do you think?

And my point is that this has happened all through GT5. As mentioned above, the PS3 is extremely powerful but skimpy on ram. You might be surprised to know that I was on the PS Universe boards way back in 2006 saying it really needed about a gig. But the PS3 uses some pricier, high performance stuff so we got what we got, and for something like GT5, it obviously is about as cramping as the PSP is for GT Mobile. For that matter, SONY informed him that they needed GT Mobile first not second, because they needed to bolster PSP sales for the 2009 holidays. Thus, the whole team had to drop work on GT5 for GT PSP. This has obviously been a bad thing.

I don't see GT5 as suffering at all from a man who has grown tired of dealing with a son causing problems because he's entering his pre-adult years, allegorically speaking. Nor because Kaz couldn't wait to get out of the office and get away from GT, though I'm sure it was a much needed breath of fresh air. Everything I see is because Kaz is at the mercy of a storm of issues which rained on his banquet. Maybe I'm more wrong, and maybe you're more right, but I don't see any evidence which supports your side. And I think I have better support for my position.

Dont know if anyone else has posted on this but Kaz and PD seems to of had a lot of trobule making compromises with the hardware to squeeze in all the content initially laid out.

It was my friend who pointed out that the PS3 only has 256mb of ram which in this day and age is tres petite. Now if u imagine online with 16 hi res cars, (Premium,) voice chat, weather, smoke or water vapours etc this takes up an awful lot of resource bandwidth. Now throw into that trying to make everthing run at 60 fps, full anti alaising with a dash of 1080p and 3d that's a mighty big sandwich for 256 mb ram to chew at once!

I know and understand that RAM isnt everything and the processors in the ps3 are exceptional. But I remember the early articles i read on the net regarding what Kaz wanted in the game and I have the final product I for one can see compromises on a lot of things. Bare in mind that he also made a lot of compromises on gt4 to which was still a very well rounded game by all accounts.
... I wouldn't be surprised to see a PS3.1 before PS4 comes out....

Actually it's 256mb + 256m, but I agree completely.

For most games, this is enough, but a few of the more ambitious titles would be much better served with at least twice that much, such as Killzone 2, Uncharted 2 and GT5. While I'd love to see a PS3.1, v2 or whatever, I'm not sure we'll ever get that.

After experiencing GT5 for a bit over a week - thanks to a lot of holiday and other interruptions, I would liked to have had it coded like a PC game, and modularly, so that features could be turned on and off by the user for more quality. 3D Install? Yes/No. Enable weather? Yes/No. Enable time of day transition? Yes/No. Quality of particles and shaders? High/Low. More cars in race with Standards? Yes/No. And one option I'd love to see is the refined physics of the TT, Mercedes and BMW demos, even if it meant fewer cars.

I have a feeling they toyed with the option idea but concluded there would be way too many headached with the online portion, and different games having different performance, and kids whining because they just didn't get it. Heck, we can't even set our own gear ratios yet!

Oh well, I have to go (somewhere) and (do something). Carry on with this.

 

[Luminis]

Actually it's 256mb + 256m, but I agree completely.

For most games, this is enough, but a few of the more ambitious titles would be much better served with at least twice that much, such as Killzone 2, Uncharted 2 and GT5. While I'd love to see a PS3.1, v2 or whatever, I'm not sure we'll ever get that.

This is a bit random, but... Do you guys remember the Nintendo 64's Expansion Pak? Doubling the RAM it had for various games?

I mean, the HDDs are already exchangable, making the RAM/VRAM upgradable wouldn't be too bad of an idea for the upcoming generation of consoles, imho.