Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> As I've heard around GTP, I saw a LOT of disgrunted GT gamers over all these delays, false promises, and with the worth a while game GTHD canned. Is Forza getting the upper hand here? Turn 10 the developer of the Forza series has been very aggresive with thier media contents with a lot less hype. While Polyphony Digital with all the hype from E3 and TGS with thier GTHD, ends up empty.

-> As far as I saw some screenshots regarding Forza 1 & 2, I think they're doing the job really well with not much delay:

^ After I saw these screenshots, the more I get convinced that PD is losing on this one. After I went ga-ga with some pics, videos regarding GTHD (back then), I think despite with the HD handicap up to 720p compared to the full blown 1080p, I think that Forza is on par graphically compared to GT. Plus with damage, online support, physics, not to mention Lamborghini and some juicier Ferrari's that everybody here in GTP keeps on demanding with no result due to all the false promises.

-> What do you think guys? (:

 

[jaxmkii]

Forza's damage is laughable
Forza's physics are weak
Forza's technical modding is as dumbed down as a game of halo

so im going to have to say No

BTW a 69 Fbody getting that much traction is exactly why Forza is the dumb 15 year olds GT

 

[Kent]

I wouldn't exactly say it like the guy above me.
But I totally voted GT rules!

Forza is only a substitute for GT if you don't have a Playstation. In the next gen it will be the same. Forza 2 will be for the GT lovers who bought a X360 instead of a PS3 (for whatever reason).

I can't imagine anyone picking Forza over GT based on the quality of the game.

For people like me, who have high expectations of GT5 considering the PS3's cost, Forza will be the replacement.

Forza's not that bad. It's pretty good if all you have is an xbox.
However, Forza is the diet soda and GT is the original. 👍

 

[Wolfe]

If Forza can improve on the horrid physics in the last game, my friends and I will be sold on it.

 

[McLaren]

Note*
The first 2 pics are not Forza 2. First is from Forza 1. 2nd is a photoshop that had absolutely 0 to do with Forza Motorsports.

 

[a6m5]

Forza's damage is laughable

I'm not defending Forza here, since Gran Turismo is getting a "realistic damage" in their fifth installment also, and I think it's going to suck too. I've never played Forza, but I'm sure it has "laughable" damage, because with a realistic damage, average players wouldn't even be able to finish a single race. And that is why I don't get the gamers desire for the realistic damage. Fender bender, running into the wall, going off the track, all those things at high speeds can end the race for you.

Forza is only a substitute for GT if you don't have a Playstation. In the next gen it will be the same. Forza 2 will be for the GT lovers who bought a X360 instead of a PS3 (for whatever reason).

I don't know about your soda comment , but I do agree with this.

I kind of wish that I didn't read this thread by Vanishing Boy now. With the high cost of Playstation 3 on top of yet another struggle by Polyphony Digital, I'm starting to entertain of maybe getting Xbox 360 instead. X360 has more games out obviously, since it's been out a year longer. Plus, some of their games actually interest me now. With the next Halo and the Forza 2, it might actually be worth the dough for me. Don't get me wrong, PS3 is well worth the retail also. It's just that for me personally, Gran Turismo is the major reason why I'm a Playstation guy. Minus the GT, I think I'm a Nintendo fan. You know, I drink both the Classic and Diet....... and Zero, caffeine-free, caffeine-free diet, C2, etc., etc.

 

[Kent]

Right.
My suggestion to you would atleast be... Don't buy a 360 until you know a confirmed release for GT5. I expect the end of 2007 but it may be closer to the end of 2008.

In any case, I plan to wait on GT before buying either system.
The X360 is 400 and that's a lot of money to spend on a system you could regret six months down the road.
I'm not saying you will, could or would, I'm just saying that personally, I'm waiting until I see both systems develop the key games I'm looking forward to seeing.

GT5 is just one. The next resident evil (confirmed for PS3) may be amazing (I was a huge Gamecube RE4 fan). Then all the other games like ace combat and armored core... I've just got to wait for the stuff I need before I can decide on one system over the other.

Of course, that's under the "one over the other" assumption. If I happen to have a lucrative summer, Say hello to both (and probably a Wii too)!!!!
I can only hope for that now.

Point is: wait as long as you can before buying a 360.
Just my opinion though.
(unless you can afford both!)

 

[Wolfe]

The 360 is already a good racing-game system. Project Gotham Racing 3, Test Drive Unlimited, Ridge Racer 6, and Import Tuner Challenge aren't perfect, but they're great fun.

 

[a6m5]

Kent: Yeah, I don't see myself getting any of the next gen system until next fall, winter. P.D. did lose a lot of credibility with me with the GT4(delays, no online, etc.), but I've been a GT fan since the first Gran Turismo, having followed the game even before the first game actually came out.

As for the Gran Turismo vs. Forza, I don't know much about what's expected of Forza 2, or the progress of the game.

The 360 is already a good racing-game system. Project Gotham Racing 3, Test Drive Unlimited, Ridge Racer 6, and Import Tuner Challenge aren't perfect, but they're great fun.

I have played PGR3 several times. It was OK. TDU looks very cool, but not something that would interest me enough to choose over GT, or possibly Forza. I've played Ridge Racer on the first PS for couple of minutes. After Gran Turismo, I just have much more appreciation for the realism, I guess.

 

[red7]

As of right now I can see forza 2 easily surpassing gt so long as they follow through with what they have going.

1. superior physics
2. solid online structure
3. potentialy great audio ( engine samples!)

I'm not holding my breath for gt5 but i'm sure pd will deliver in the end. Above all I've come to the conclusion that pc racing sims are already where I'd like a sim to be at and its only getting better....right now...

 

[extreme car]

I don't think GT will lose to Forza in anyway... Gran Turismo 4s physics is far more superior (IMO) and the car in Forza is nowhere near GT4s graphic... I think GT4 car graphic is better than forza

 

[Dave A]

Forza simulates some aspects of a car better than GT4 such as the tyres but that goes both ways, there's plenty of areas GT4 simulates a car better. I won't say which is better overall, only that neither are the best sims out there.

 

[Wolfe]

Forza simulates some aspects of a car better than GT4 such as the tyres but that goes both ways, there's plenty of areas GT4 simulates a car better...neither are the best sims out there.

Agreed. As much as I hate GT4, it's better than Forza.

 

[JohnBM01]

Do I think GT is losing the battle against Forza? Depends on what you would consider as "losing" and "winning." Microsoft and company know the online game. So that's a no-contest until Sony steps up in the online department in terms of taking on Forza. If online was all people cared about with racing games and not so much on content, then Forza would win hands-down. I was one of the biggest Forza haters until I grown quite fond of the game. I stated that Forza is XBOX's GT. Turn 10 (the group behind Forza) stated that they respect Gran Turismo and just want to offer up something for GT fans. I think it's been the media and us forum participants that turned GT and Forza into a heated rivalry. Forza is truly GT's biggest competition to date. GT's been to places most video games almost NEVER got into. They've been part of livery on existing race tracks, sponsors on cars, even sponsoring its own automobile events whereas "Best in Show" cars at SEMA have a GREAT chance of being in the Gran Turismo title. Can you ask for much more? Forza's going to have a show sponsored by Forza on Speed Channel this February. These are simply two of the best racing games out there. Most others are pretenders and inspirators.

On a content standpoint, I will agree that Forza has a leg up on GT with some of the different race cars Forza offers. I'd personally love to see the Panoz LMP Roadster in GT5. It's one of the VERY rare front/RWD prototype race cars. And damn... it's sexy. Forza also had the only Cadillac I'd ever want to race- the Cadillac Northstar LMP. Forza has damage and a certain variety of tracks. I think most of the content in Forza was grounds for why most liked Forza over GT. On the other hand, some of the tracks were badly inspired including how close the New York City street course in Forza looks to GT4's variant. Blue Mountains Raceway was Bathurst's evil twin brother. The best original race track in Forza has to be Alpine Hills Ring. That is a first-class circuit to tackle Löwensering of Enthusia and Grand Valley Speedway in the GT series. I thought the AI, while competitive, was thuggish. So I had very little to say on that front.

Now let's look at GT. Gran Turismo has been the reason why most racing games drawn inspiration or had competition in the rear-view. This was a game that didn't have online play or damage, yet still retained most of the essentials of racing games. Six to a track is going to be a thing of the past for race tracks in GT5 as many more cars could fill grid positions in GT5. I still say that 20 is a good number and 24 is perfect. People complained of failed promises, multiple variations of a single car line, and all this. I still feel comfortable with the GT series because it's the one series I can still fall back on after playing Enthusia, Forza, GTR, and countless other series. I haven't been fully disappointed with any GT since GT2. Even PD admitted that that trying to rush things could lead to a substandard game title. After a while, I thought GT3 was a prettier GT2, only a bit better.

So my vote to this detailed debate? My heart is still with Gran Turismo even though I highly respect Forza. Some people just get too picky. But at the end of the day, it's been most other games (at one point or another) following the taillights of Gran Turismo and PD.

 

[Dave A]

I would not agree that GT is losing the battle between GT and Forza, at present the two games aim for different needs of what I want in a racing game. Gran Turismo offers the diversity of being able to race cars you wouldnt dream of racing or seeing anywhere else. Forza allows the more creative side of me to come out and have good time. I really enjoy modding and painting cars i Forza, which is something I can't do in GT. To comment on features overlapping is just specualtion at this point as we know very little has been confirmed about GT5 so I'd have to wait and see on the next generation of Gran Turismo v Forza.

 

[MustangSVT]

i would say at the moment yes. This poll isn't too accurate since most people that are on this forum are here because they're Gran Turismo fans so they're going to say GT is better. I happen to have liked Forza more than GT4 even though I have a DFP to play GT4 with, simply because of better menus, better graphics, better supercar selection, smaller loading times, so on (i.e. no annoyance of oil change, no annoyance of having to change ASM/TCS for every single car) and the races are properly balanced at least and when you selecting a race/series, if you're not in the proper car, the game takes you to eligible car list to pick from. That's not to say I don't like GT4. I really like the game, I just find Forza to be the better game. Seeing how GT:HD has been cancelled, I think it will quite a long wait for GT5, so I'm happy Forza 2 will hopefully come out next spring, looking forward to it, and in that respect as well, Forza is winning the battle (getting a "next-gen" product out).

 

[Scaff]

Cobra UK,
If my "wondering if you have ever driven a car or raced in Forza" was offensive to you, I apologize. I had no intention of seriously implying you had done neither of these.
My words were subjective and without foresight of the possibility that you would percieve GT4's "understeer" as non-realistic (compared to Forza's).
At the heart of my original topic the subject remains the same to this point. With my new understanding of the discussion. Please allow me to say this...



I contend that Forza is far more unrealistically glued to the road than GT4.
On Forza...
Braking distances in Forza seem shorter. Turn-in is dramatic. Long turns are easier for all vehicles. Weight-shifts to drift angles are easy to achieve and hold.

Understeer seems to be an issue as well...

It's almost as if nothing understeers in Forza.
We seem to disagree about understeer, how common it is, how commonly it is tuned into cars stock, and how to remove it (as I am well versed in tuning a car to show "good" handling).
Problem is, I can't change your mind about understeer and the role it plays in motorsports. So, while I appreciate your efforts to explain why understeer from GT4 wouldn't work in real life, I would rather you spare me the long winded story of slippery recycled goodness.
On the other hand though, I don't mind if you want to mention the Handling of Understeer in Forza in relation to FF, AWD, and 4WD vehicles.

Moving on... I found this odd...


At first I was worried that I was having this discussion with someone doing doughnuts. Just kidding, but I did think about how I've never been one to worry about doughnut physics. So with that in mind...
I've just now gone and tested your claim about GT4 and you are either mistaken or outright lying.
270R gykhama, circles- full throttle- wheel lock, 19-20mph in full doughnut mode. Consistant up to 3rd gear doughnuts and no difference at all between no wing, 0/0 downforce and max 30/30 downforce.

To top that, GT4's use of downforce at speed and based on the car is incredible... Race cars at 100mph cut a path for drafting cars far better than street cars at the same speed. Likewise, when following a car you can hear the wind changes and notice the draft of cars in front of you change throughout the range of speeds covered (building from nothing at low speed to great downforce at high speed). Basically I've described just part of what you see in Mission Hall and you've totally ignored it.

Flat out dude, I believe you are wrong in your assesment now more than ever.

I have to say with my experence with both Forza and GT4 I'm in agreement with Kent, particularly in the areas of braking and overall tyre grip. Push front tyres right to the limit on a track and you can get very, very severe understeer. GT4 goes slightly too far in this regard, but Forza is very inaccurate in this area.

Braking distances are totally wrong for stock tyres in Forza (EPR and GT4 are almost spot on), and while I like the fact that you can turn the ABS off in Forza, when you do the results are just nasty, with almost no difference in the point of lock-up regardless of the speed being done.

On the area of downforce in GT4 (just to set out my stall here - aero in all console sims is appallingly simplistic) it most certainly is speed dependent, you can set a car up with opposing aero and suspension balance and quite clearly feel the shift from one to another.


I have also tried out the same car in all three test (using my current company car - a Toyota Celica) and I have to say that GT4 and EPR are close to it (neither quite gets it right) but in Forza its just plain wrong. FWD cars in Forza are particularly bad, as the level of grip from the front end is off by quite a large degree.

Regards

Scaff

 

[RedOak]

well its a good question... i'm not as experienced as most here, but i do agree with the Tire issue. It is superior in Forza (i just tried it to see) and it does feel more confortable to take turns at moderate to high speeds... easier to correct while GT "puts you down" too quickly.

But as for the question at hand, i have a different opinion on the matter...

I see this has the battle between Sony and Microsoft... the GT series's always been strong because it was the only one... and now microsoft shows up with Forza... and of course, FM1 struggled a bit because GT4 was there and p3wning it hard... but now comes the PS3 and the X360... and the tides are reversed... the Ps3 is struggling very hard at its launch to offer something of value to its fans, while the x360 is slowly gaining a lot of ground with stronger titles...

I understand the fact that there is a year's difference between the two consoles... but their power and performance is pretty much equal (give or take here and there). I think Forza can do a LOT better then the first in its first installment... bring in more features, correct a lot of their "newcomer's" mistakes... But GT5... well its the 5th installment of the series, and i feel that PD might have overstepped their bounderies a little and gone off track... its time for PD to look back a bit, and see what worked in the past, making "newb " adjustments to their product, while FM2 is clearly, slowly stepping up to the veteran audiance.

Of course we won't know until both games are out... but the way i see it, and its my opinion alone... there might very well be 2 years difference between the two.. which at first glance, should put PD's GT5 at an advantage; studying FM2's good sides... but i think Forza3 could be around the corner, to greet GT5 to its debut in 2008 (most probably)...

Overall... PD kind of got sloppy a bit.. and Corner's working hard to "Make it into the big leagues"... which might just work pretty damn well..

anyhow... just a though.

 

[buickgnx88]

what i really hate is trying to burnouts, which has been mentioned before. in most other games, and in real life, you can hold the brake and the gas and do a burnout, without having to have a little momentum first. but in GT you have to start moving a tad bit, then hold the brake, and you cant have max brake power either. when i play gt4, im in gear, the brakes are held, and the revs are at a max and a burnout still doesnt happen! in most high power vehicles, you can hold the brakes fairly hard and still produce a burnout in the mid-range revs.

 

[shawtyoner]

I've been an avid GT player for years and GT has always been the pick of the litter for me. I also have FM, and have played it for a while as well. To me, both games have their strong points, but something in me wants to play GT more so rather than FM, probably since i have a DFP wheel, i honestly hate playing sim racers with a controller. Whatever it is, GT4 had alot of upsetting mistakes, but i have learned to overcome those details for the time being. However long it takes, it would be really satisfying if PD makes GT5 amazing, because that's what it should be, nothing less. Iron out all the stupid little kinks that were in GT4, and produce what you have come to call "The real driving simulator". Until then, i will be waiting to see how FM2 turns out once released.

 

[Dave A]

what i really hate is trying to burnouts, which has been mentioned before. in most other games, and in real life, you can hold the brake and the gas and do a burnout, without having to have a little momentum first. but in GT you have to start moving a tad bit, then hold the brake, and you cant have max brake power either. when i play gt4, im in gear, the brakes are held, and the revs are at a max and a burnout still doesnt happen! in most high power vehicles, you can hold the brakes fairly hard and still produce a burnout in the mid-range revs.

In real life if you attept a burnout whill holding the brakes your going to really knacker something in your car. What I think your thinking of is some cars have an aftermarket device installed where you press a button and it disconnects the rear brakes, so when you press the brake pedal only the front brakes are applied and the rear wheels are left unlocked and free to spin (provided it's a rwd car, if it's fwd or 4wd then your still going to knacker something). There is absolutely zero use for a device like this in Gran Turismo at this point in time.

 

[McLaren]

Forza wins obvoiusly. You get to do donuts.

I feel zero are winning, and zero are losing. Each bring something to the table better than the other. GT4 simulates drifting more realistically than Forza ever while Forza simulates other things differently.

IMHO, Forza 2 is for me right now because nothing on the PS3 makes me want one ASAP until GT5 and that won't be out for a while. For now, and until both are out, I'll just stick to playing games like GTR2 and TDU for some entertainment.

 

[SavageEvil]

doesn't matter to me, although i prefer gt4 to Forza. Each has it's merits and downfalls. Something said earlier had me in stitches, PGR3 being a good racing game. I have never been soo upset in my life, this game is exactly like PGR2, the visuals look almost identical(draw distance is greatly improved). Now TDU is a very GT-esque approach, but with it's own twist. Now that's a good driving game.

Anyway, Forza is nice alternative to GT4. GT5 looks like it will definately bring it, 1080p visuals, incredible car detail, actual driver in the vehicles, awesome trackside details, improved audio and last but not least, incredible choice of vehicles to traverse the game with. Nothing else comes closer. GT provides you a combination that no other game can claim.

 

[Kent]

You guys are all right in this... There's just one problem, price.
I'm not really sure what's going to happen but for now I'm just going to wait. If GT5 comes out and the PS3 is still a solid 600 for the 60gb and Forza 2 looks good- say hello to x360.

I'm all about waiting for GT5, I'm all about buying a PS3 just for GT5, I'm not all about paying out the wa-zoo for a high def version of GT4.

That's the challenge in my opinion. Can GT5 bring everything GT is known for and deliver on the pop fun of Forza (like body mods and paint)?
If yes then I'm sold on a PS3.
If no then I'm buying a X360.

 

[IMADreamer]

I love how the GT fanboys get all heated on this one.

First off all comparisons between the two games are from the last generation systems and mean nothing now that the games are moving to the next gen. So the only thing we have to go by are claims made by the companies. Well PD lies, alot so I want to play their product before I believe they have done anything to actually improve this game which they really haven't done since GT2. Why start now?

I've never played a full version of Forza, I've played a demo and I liked it so I can't even comment on it. So I will stick to what I know. I love how some of you think GT4 had great physics. Honestly, they weren't that good. Yes they were slightly better then Forzas (again I've only played a demo) but they are laughable for something called a "simulator". Have any of you ever driven a high powered car on a track? (your civic at SI club meet day doesn't count) GT is no where near that in the physics department. I'll admit I'm no race driver but I have had a little track time in the last year to atleast get a taste for it.

Moving on the areas I feel GT needs improved the most Forza is already ahead of them. Namely computer AI and sound. I also think the variety of cars available are better in Forza then in GT. Sure GT has more but they are all slight variations of the same car.

I don't know much about upgrades or tuning in Forza, but I felt like GTs were lacking. Basically you slap on parts, tune your suspension and call it a day. I would like to see some real tuning in future games. Let me play with the timing, injector pulse, and so on so I can get a my own ideal af ratio.

Ok, moral of the story is both have their strong points and both have a long way to go to be what they are striving to be. I think it's really premature to sit here and say one is winning over the other on the next gen platforms considering neither is out. I think Forza 2 comes out in January? but GT is likely two years away. I guess that gives GT an advantage because it can see what Forza does and do it better. I'm sure both games will be good and have their own strong followings. Don't be such fanboys though guys, open your minds up and just enjoy the games.

 

[Kent]

AI, they seem to both work about equally as poorly. The main difference is that Forza's AI will cost you money in damage and time on the track, GT's will only cost you time on the track.
Sound, the first day I played Forza I was let down by the sound.

I feel that if Forza can up the physics, sound, and AI, they'll be unbeatable.
That is, unless GT ups the body / paint mods, AI, and online.

As of right now the deck is stacked against GT if you ask me.
I'm still going to wait though...

And IMADreamer, don't be such a downer on everyone with the fanboy trash... Lots of us (like myself) still to this day play both Forza and GT (on a regular basis).

 

[DuckRacer]

GT5 is just one. The next resident evil (confirmed for PS3) may be amazing (I was a huge Gamecube RE4 fan). Then all the other games like ace combat and armored core... I've just got to wait for the stuff I need before I can decide on one system over the other.

Resident Evil 5 and Armored Core 4 will be on the X360.

TDU looks very cool, but not something that would interest me enough to choose over GT, or possibly Forza.

TDU really isn't in the same class as GT4. GT4 is a "simulator". TDU is an arcade live-a-virtual-dream-life game, which it does very well at.

2. solid online structure
3. potentialy great audio ( engine samples!)

I would think both would be a given considering how Forza 1 excelled in those categories.

You guys are all right in this... There's just one problem, price.
I'm not really sure what's going to happen but for now I'm just going to wait. If GT5 comes out and the PS3 is still a solid 600 for the 60gb and Forza 2 looks good- say hello to x360.

If GT5 comes out in late 2008 or early 2009, I would think the price would have dropped $100. I'm expecting the X360 to have a $50 price drop next year, however, and by 2009 there'll probably be the premium 360 for $300 with the possibility of a $400 360 with a 70GB HDD.

Personally IMO, I do think that GT is losing. It's still ahead, but Forza is catching up, and if FM3 releases at about the same time as GT5, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they're evenly matched or that Forza is ahead. PD has been seriously slacking off, and they need to get back into shape. I thought the actual racing in Forza 1 killed GT4, with better quality cars, much better sound, damage, etc. The only reason I played GT4 a lot was because of the tuning, and I know I'm not going to do the same with GT5.

 

[greenlightning]

I have skimmed through this thread and only have the following comments to make. Personally I have not played Forza very much at all only a few hours at most over a year ago. This was on my brothers Xbox, which he has now sold and is enjoying GT4 now. We have even done some network races. GT4 has incredible depth and replay value and there are only a few small details that would of with out a doubt made it one incredible game. For me the lack of single play replay in two player arcade. The lack of the ability to use your garage cars in arcade mode single player. Or the limit of only two laps in family cup mode are big mistakes. Not to mention the horible race events and race grouping in sim mode. Also lack of using garage cars in network races is a huge mistake.

If GT5 has simple overlooked thing such as above and nothing to make up for it then without a doubt I would never even look at it. What GT5 must have is 12 to 20 car field, much better A.I. Then just to please the masses damage. If damage only gets limited to race cars because of car makers what is this saying. That GT series is so more realistic then all the rest of the games ? Otherwise why would they not restrict it on other games also. I would also say that having a full custom paint option will be critical. Not to mention a very strong and powerfull online mode. I guess what I am saying is that GT5 will have an enormous amount of ground to cover. At this time it is very questionable on what will be offered. All I know is that incredible graphics and enormous amount of cars will not easily get me to buy it like all the other times. Like most things on this forum it is all speculation at this point and subject to change as each day passes

 

[Cobra_UK]

I guess it's just down to personal preference.

I don't think GT is loosing to FM just yet. I don't think overall GT4 is better than FM. I think GT will loose the next round, FM2 vs no GT in 2007. We'll see what happens when GT5 is released, whenever that may be.

I will say one thing though, if some people are prepared to wait until Xmas 2008 or 2009 or 2010 (GT = delays galore) before they decide to try FM2, good luck to them. I am prepared to spend £300 or so to buy and XBOX360 and FM2 next year. I'd rather have that than some GT demo on a £400 PS3. Like I said before, if GT5 makes any other driving game look like a kindergarden rocking horse I'll buy a PS3 and GT5 then.

 

[Kent]

Ok, I've deleted the flame-fest between UK Cobra and I.

Please feel free to continue the discussion regarding the winner in a next gen Forza GT battle.

Just remember to keep the subject on next gen speculation and not current gen comparisons. 👍

And of course, on a final note... I'm still hoping you can show me those links duck. I'm a huge fan of AC and RE, and even more so a fan of saving money.
So let me know if there's anything solid you can point me towards (regarding the confirmation of AC and RE on X360 👍 ).

So, with that said...
Have fun everyone and enjoy the topic.