Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[kinigitt]

I don't think any racing game is ever going to get over the hurdle of repetitive races.

yeah if you dont like driving the car you have to use to beat stupid car-specific races that put you in the hole financially. It's like a simulator of my real life financial situation. Gran Turismo 5: insufficient funds.

Screw the "car ownership" tag line. You don't own the lines of code. You just had to race the same goddamn track 5 times in a row with a car you dont' care for because you needed the virtual cash to unlock the damn thing.

 

[Tenacious D]

What drives me nuts is the GTfanatics who insist that there's nothing wrong with the AI or collision physics, & that there's no need for damage - all areas where IMO Forza 1, let alone Forza 2, is far superior to GT4. As far as I can judge from the GT5P demo, PD still has not seriously addressed these points & is still focused on improving the already stunning visuals.

My fear is, as long as GT fanboys remain convinced that the GT series is "perfect", it will continue to sell well & there will not be much incentive for PD to make the changes that will dramatically improve the series.

I think you need to cut back on sugar or caffeine or something.

There are actually very few people who say that Gran Turismo is perfect around here. Even I have commented on some of the flaws in Prologue, such as turning off ABS only allows you to lock the brakes on the smallest cars, for whatever reason. Maybe Forza spoiled me, but it does seem that you have to take some turns slower than I'd like. And collisions, yes they sometimes look cheezy, and many of the sounds are a little rough. But you're ignoring virtually everything Kaz and the lads have put into the game so far, and the real finished version may well be a year off yet. When Forza 2 was a year from release, everything was made of gray blocks, had no sound and used incomplete Virtua Racing-like physics.

And Kazunori-dono isn't just competing with Forza - and dozens of other racing games, he's competing with reality. Dan Greenawalt may own a somewhat hopped up Audi, but Kaz owns supercars, a Porsche, a modded S2000 and two Ford GTs. And he's one of the few developers with racing experience.

I have a freaking huge game library, and I can see how devs used their "performance budget," where there's only so much processor power to go around to different features, AI, resolution and effects. Some here can't stop raving over Enthusia, and I beg to differ with some of them over what they claim is uber real. But that aside, I can see where Konami dropped the ball in certain aspects. I don't think it's because they're dummyheads with no clue. I think the head guys just decided certain things were more important, and because the PS2 can't do everything, some elements just got by with partial accuracy. Heck, Gran Turismo from the start had the bots brake by slamming on them full force, and it does seem that in Prologue they're a little heavy footed.

But to say that there's nothing different in Prologue is just short sighted. Since it seems your mind is made up, I suppose I'm done dropping pennies on the subject. Back to gaming.

And kingitt, I don't know what to say to your posts, except I disagree completely.

 

[kinigitt]

And kingitt, I don't know what to say to your posts, except I disagree completely.

completely? Gee wiz.

So if I follow your logic... Forza is beautiful? GT5 prologue has bad physics? Having to retread ground you already covered in a video game to earn meager rewards is...FUN?

shrug.

look up argument clinic on youtube.

 

[ilovethescudo]

IMHO, Gran turismo is a very good game. I've never played Forza, hell i don't even have an XBOX.(I'm seemingly being compelled to steer clear of Microsoft, what with their obsession with Yahoo and all).

I really don't care that theres no damage in GT. Think of it this way. In order to make crashes realistic, you'd have to crash several different cars at several different angles, at several different speeds, and in several different conditions just to get realistic damage. Also, how would you like it if you were say, the owner of Ford, and PD wants to crash your latest concept car. You'd probably call security and have them kicked out. So, all in all, it's probably better for damage not to be in GT.

 

[Dave A]

You're a bit wide of the mark there. PD don't need to crash real cars to get crashes to look realistic. All you need is a good engine to simulate polgon deformation and to study what pressures exerted on what materials will cause it to bend / break. You simply apply thoe values to the different virtual parts of the virtual car and then run the damage engine. It doesn't require any real world testing, though seeing some real crashes wouldn't do any harm and would be a big help with regards to tweaking the engine all they actually need is mathematical calculations.

 

[EmArA]

well I have not played Forza so GT is the best there is for me

 

[dylansan]

I'd rather have no damage then the completely unrealistic damage present in Forza 2. No matter what you do, you can't actually wreck your car completely and your engine is always running, albeit more brokenly. Grid got it right I think, with the race ending crashes and at the right speed. Forza is way off the mark in that aspect, and it's one of only two things I can think of that Forza claims to have an advantage in (The other being customization, which is also usually pretty bad when the vinyls are so glitchy).

 

[JDMKING13]

I own both PS3 and Xbox360. I have played forza2 and GTP I must say GTP gives me the best feeling when It comes to driving a car around the course. sometimes when i zone out in the game it really feels like im driving. thats why i stoped playing forza. my car connection with forza is not as strong as GTP. the one thing i like about forza is the customization level and how they take It to the community. other than that GTP all the way!!!

 

[Rusty*]

Well as for Forza...I wont go there.
Have a look at it this way;
How is it possible for a Producer to truly understand and put it all into making a great Game on a 'said' topic if he/she is not overly interested in the topic for which that 'said' Game is based. Gran Turismo's Producer, Producer of all Gran Turismo titles has a genuine and noticeable passion for all things Automotive, AFTER ALL that is the reason why he was compelled to make Gran Turismo in the first place...regardless of the whether or not it was accepted!
In short how can a Producer with no real interest create a Game of the same topic, as a Producer with genuine interest and have it be superior?
The Racing genre has so many areas that have to be taken into account(GUI, Cars, Physics, Tracks, Sounds etc) that to really say one game is better than the other you have to have a rate the game with all areas considered...and when you do have an UNBIASED look at all the Titles in the Racing/Driving Genre, you are more than likey going to find that Gran Turismo is far ahead in realism in almost all areas of the Race/Driving Genre making it far superior to any other Game in its class.

Also note that the Polyphony Digital TEAM right from the start has been 100% dedicated to the Racing Genre, Producing only Racing Titles since it was practically possible to make Games, isn't it blatantly obvious that others just..."Don't stand a chance."?
OnlineGT

 

[Wolfe]

...when you do have an UNBIASED look at all the Titles in the Racing/Driving Genre, you are more than likey going to find that Gran Turismo is far ahead in realism in almost all areas of the Race/Driving Genre making it far superior to any other Game in its class.

That's unbiased? Sorry, GT3 was a lot of fun, and GT5 has definitely taken a step forward in realism, but at no point has the series even begun to demonstrate that PD has what it takes to compete with higher-level PC sims, much less be "the best." Also, when you say "almost all areas of the Race/Driving Genre," I hope you don't mean to say that Gran Turismo is a good choice for a rally or F1 sim. Street/touring cars are its focus, and you can tell that's all PD concentrates on.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

That's unbiased? Sorry, GT3 was a lot of fun, and GT5 has definitely taken a step forward in realism, but at no point has the series even begun to demonstrate that PD has what it takes to compete with higher-level PC sims, much less be "the best." Also, when you say "almost all areas of the Race/Driving Genre," I hope you don't mean to say that Gran Turismo is a good choice for a rally or F1 sim. Street/touring cars are its focus, and you can tell that's all PD concentrates on.

Actually, someone in the Racing Sims forums website made a review of GT5P, and he said it was pretty good...coming from a sims enthusiast, I'd say those are high marks for a console racer.

In any case, Rusty did say "in it's class", i.e. Forza, Race Driver, etc.

 

[Rusty*]

That's unbiased? Sorry, GT3 was a lot of fun, and GT5 has definitely taken a step forward in realism, but at no point has the series even begun to demonstrate that PD has what it takes to compete with higher-level PC sims, much less be "the best." Also, when you say "almost all areas of the Race/Driving Genre," I hope you don't mean to say that Gran Turismo is a good choice for a rally or F1 sim. Street/touring cars are its focus, and you can tell that's all PD concentrates on.

Well Wolfe, you say that at no point has PD what it take to complete with PC-sims...I'm not talking about PC-sims, I never mention PC sims, did I? This is strictly Console Sims only, and when it comes to console Sims I'm refering to the Racing and general Sealed road style of Driving, like Forza, NFS:U, GRID, etc. Then you mention Rally/ F1, I'm sorry the way I worded my last post I might have made it seem as though I meant all types of Driving such as Rally & F1 being included. GT5P has a focus on the Road Driving of the Cars available, but Gran Turismo 5 as a finished piece will most likey aslo include Rally/Offroad and F1 as it has been in previous GT Titles. However as Gran Turismo is more centralized around OnRoad Driving, then its understandable that its Rally might not be quite as good as some dedicated Rally Titles, and I believe that is fair enough, Gran Turismo is a game where you can try anything that involves Cars basically. So AS A WHOLE, LOOKING AT ALL ASPECTS Gran Turismo 5 will be the Game with greatest variety of Driving options and most likely to outsell all other Driving titles like its predecessor Titles have, besides GT has without a doubt the largest fan base of all Driving games, I dont think its possible for that many people to all be wrong lol. But yes definetly if you are more into Rally Games, as your prefered style of Racing, then you should check out the dedicated Rally Games. But if you want to try everything that is Driving then you will want to go for Gran Turismo.
Peace Out,
OnlineGT👍

 

[nick09]

GT is the best for me as I don't wanna spend cash on a another console, video game, and the online service.

I'm a cheapo in the long term.

 

[Wolfe]

In any case, Rusty did say "in it's class", i.e. Forza, Race Driver, etc.

Well Wolfe, you say that at no point has PD what it take to complete with PC-sims...I'm not talking about PC-sims, I never mention PC sims, did I?

He/you did say that out of "all the Titles in the Racing/Driving Genre," Gran Turismo is "far ahead in realism in almost all areas."

GT has without a doubt the largest fan base of all Driving games, I dont think its possible for that many people to all be wrong lol.

Wrong about what? Many people who play the game don't care how realistic it is, and an even greater number have no clue how a car is supposed to handle near or beyond its limits. Hell, GT has such a positive reputation that PD doesn't even have to put any effort into the physics anymore. Everyone just assumes they're great and more realistic than the last game, even if (or maybe especially if) it's too difficult for them to play. As a games developer, PD is in a very enviable position.

Now that you've explained your view in a bit more detail, I understand and have no complaint. However, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the GT series is as good as it gets simply because Kazunori is passionate about cars and has done nothing but develop racing titles with Polyphony Digital. You can enjoy the games as much as you'd like, but looking at them with a bit more of a critical eye wouldn't hurt.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

This is strictly Console Sims only, and when it comes to console Sims I'm refering to the Racing and general Sealed road style of Driving, like Forza, NFS:U, GRID, etc.

NFSU isn't a sim. GRID isn't much of a sim either.

 

[Rusty*]

Originally Posted by SUPER NUMBBER
In any case, Rusty did say "in it's class", i.e. Forza, Race Driver, etc.

Originally Posted by Rusty*
Well Wolfe, you say that at no point has PD what it take to complete with PC-sims...I'm not talking about PC-sims, I never mention PC sims, did I?

He/you did say that out of "all the Titles in the Racing/Driving Genre," Gran Turismo is "far ahead in realism in almost all areas."

Yes, I neglected to mention that I was refering to 'Class' as meaning Race Game ie. Forza, GRID, NFS:U, the fact that these games are Console Games, I thought it was obvious I was refering to Console Games only, sorry.

Originally Posted by Rusty*
GT has without a doubt the largest fan base of all Driving games, I dont think its possible for that many people to all be wrong lol.

Wrong about what? Many people who play the game don't care how realistic it is, and an even greater number have no clue how a car is supposed to handle near or beyond its limits. Hell, GT has such a positive reputation that PD doesn't even have to put any effort into the physics anymore. Everyone just assumes they're great and more realistic than the last game, even if (or maybe especially if) it's too difficult for them to play. As a games developer, PD is in a very enviable position.

If you were take all the fans of Race Games(Console only), who care about realism and ask them which game they play they would probably say Gran Turismo. Wrong you say, those that purchased GT did so because they wanted a game in the Racing/Driving Genre, they chose GT over numerous other Racing/Driving Class Games(Console) for what ever reason, in doing so they say GT is better, they can't all be wrong.
You say that PD is "in a very enviable position", this I can 100% agree with!:tup: However they do have a great deal of pressure derived from high fan expectations!! lol .

Now that you've explained your view in a bit more detail, I understand and have no complaint. However, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the GT series is as good as it gets simply because Kazunori is passionate about cars and has done nothing but develop racing titles with Polyphony Digital. You can enjoy the games as much as you'd like, but looking at them with a bit more of a critical eye wouldn't hurt.

You say to that looking at GT with a critical eye wouldn't hurt, yes thats right, there will always be room for improvement in most games, (including PC games), careful observation is always a good thing. Thats what GT5P is for, in essence PD has a working platform for which they can try new ideas and test existing ones. Cheers Wolfe, take it easy!
OnlineGT

PS.

NFSU isn't a sim. GRID isn't much of a sim either.

Yes my mistake, I don't think those Games where made with the idea of trying to create Simulator. They were created to be a fun Driving Game that would sell well pretty much.👍

 

[Kent]

I've noticed this thread slowly slipping away and coming back from time to time but it no longer holds value as it once did.
Where we once had an on-topic discussion of FM v. GT, now we see a generalized GT v. the World with at least two distinct parties (those who don't like GT and those who do).
Criticisms and compliments are being perverted, comments are being taken out of context (such as citing a comment regarding GT as the best without concern for the 'in its class' which followed).

My point here is simple (though my words may be more difficult to understand...)

This topic is dead.
Forza doesn't even come up (for whatever reason, and I have my opinion on why that is ).

Point is, I'd say this is a case closed.
Case closed not because a winner has been decided but instead because the topic is no longer consistent and the discussion is not logical (or in my opinion, not entirely honest either).