Do you think there's a provable difference between views?

H

HarambeRacing

(Banned)
17
Canada
Canada
Something I've thought about recently is the viewing mode in which people drive.

I used the hood cam, I've pretty much always used this as the bumper cam just feels horrible for me as far as spatially & also when I'm racing amongst many people, i like to be able to at least see where my nose is. It doesn't help when i can't see the rear of my car & sometimes people might feel like I've pushed them when in reality I just assumed the move was done, but that's a whole other thing with clumsiness & checking radar in the moment.

Anyway, I've noticed that almost all of the top guys used the bumper cam, & even more interesting, most wheel users seem to use bumper cam too (that I've come across, obviously I can't know all of them).

I'm on controller, so understeer is basically part of the game at this point... & horrific tyre wear, but something got me thinking about this the other day when watching a top drivers livestream who was in the same top split lobby as me.

He's on a wheel in bumper cam, I'm on controller hood cam, he pits to softs 3 laps before my at Watkins Glen, & at the end of the race his tyre wear was slightly less than mine, on tyres that did 7 laps at x5 tyre wear, as opposed to x4. I have no idea how much of that is wheel vs controller, or throttle control (although I feel like WG forces you to have good throttle control otherwise you're spun easily).

What made me think about it was the way the cars rotate... I don't know if it's just a placebo effect, but I feel as though the bumper view has better rotation on the cars. That is to say that the cars feel like they have less understeer & a better turn in compared to other views, especially the hood cam view.

Hood cam feels like it has more understeer inherently, but again I can't prove it. I'm also not a programmer, so I have no clue whether this is even a thing... I feel like logically in a game world, it's certainly possible that some views "feel different" because of the spatial differences & how that's coded into the game?

It's probably a ridiculous topic,there's so many variables in the game that lead to advantages/disadvantages in one area or another... but it'd be interesting if there was a way to prove that one view gave a particular advantage or not, & that you'd be able to find a tenth or 2 consistently by switching to a different view.

The difference if there is one, is probably only marginal, it's not like I'm saying "change to bumper cam" & you'll be in the top 10.
 
Guffaluff
Pace can definitely vary between views. However, it is due to better visibility/feel for the positioning of the car, and not different car behaviour. It's also a personal preference and a matter of what you get used to.
Click to expand...
Is there any evidence to support that though?

That's what I really want to know, if there are any provable differences within the game code, or that much cleverer people than me can prove, that it's more than just a potential placebo.

Like it's not enough to just state something as a fact without evidence imo

Although the visibility & feel for position is an interesting point.
 
DiabloSV
The camera in front of the steering axle or behind the axle surely has a different feeling, but the car handling remains the same. It would be absurd otherwise.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying there's a purposeful difference. As in, the developers went & made a clear difference on purpose.

It's hard to fully explain what I mean, but I guess I mostly mean I wonder if there's a difference, that can be proven, which is a by-product of the different spatial variances in each view.

I don't know what it would even take to prove such a thing, because even if you did 100 runs in each view looking for consistency, it'd be hard to prove that it's not just a placebo effect or preference of a view down to better visibility like the other guy said.

To me, bumper view feels like it consistently has a sharper turn in compared to hood view, but proving it is a whole other level.
 
The view that allows you to see the apex sooner is the one that wins out, though GT interior view maybe the choice of realism,
it's somewhat static & delay's you seeing the apex past the pillars until you turn in, which makes you slower then the outside views.

If the game had a helmet view like ACC or having three screens then that could be a better choice.
 
regnar
The view that allows you to see the apex sooner is the one that wins out, though GT interior view maybe the choice of realism,
it's somewhat static & delay's you seeing the apex past the pillars until you turn in, which makes you slower then the outside views.

If the game had a helmet view like ACC or having three screens then that could be a better choice.
Click to expand...
Interesting point.

Something I've wished for in this game is the ability to lock view for some events. Maybe having one sport mode event that is locked to cockpit view for a "more realistic" & obviously difficult race.
 
HarambeRacing
I'm not saying there's a purposeful difference. As in, the developers went & made a clear difference on purpose.

It's hard to fully explain what I mean, but I guess I mostly mean I wonder if there's a difference, that can be proven, which is a by-product of the different spatial variances in each view.

I don't know what it would even take to prove such a thing, because even if you did 100 runs in each view looking for consistency, it'd be hard to prove that it's not just a placebo effect or preference of a view down to better visibility like the other guy said.

To me, bumper view feels like it consistently has a sharper turn in compared to hood view, but proving it is a whole other level.
Click to expand...
It's all about perspective and field of view, the bumper view is right at the front of the car, it's should feel the most responsive and the further back the camera is the less responsive the car may appear to feel. The reality is that it's just as responsive in all the camera views.

Think about moving objects, if you have two objects moving at the same speed horizontally on the horizon, one is twice as far away as the other, which will appear to be moving faster? The one closest to you. They're both still moving at the same speed.
 
There is no provable difference between the Views.
The underlying Physics don’t change suddenly only because you‘ve switched the Camera View.
It may “look“ as if the Rotation you mentioned seems more exaggerated but the truth is it’s just an optical Impression.
I always use Cockpit View with no HUD.
The only Visual difference in using Bumper View has already been perfectly explained by @regnar .
But the Physics are not influenced swapping between the Views.
It’s only in your Head 😁
 
I remember I big thing about someone analysing the different views in Sport years ago and they concluded that in fact there was a slight change in centre of rotation of the car. I remember thinking it was interesting and worthy of consideration, but not what I would call conclusive or scientific.
The conclusion was that the closer to the middle of the car the viewpoint was the closer to the middle of the car the centre of rotation also became.
So although I don't feel it personally, I don't think it necessarily means that you are crazy.

As a controller user I can confirm that it is much much easier to control tyre wear using a wheel and pedals. You can drive in a way to lessen wear (steer less/more gentlyvfor fronts, Accel easier/when straight for rears) but you can both feel it better and control it better with wheel/pedals
 
Mane
I remember I big thing about someone analysing the different views in Sport years ago and they concluded that in fact there was a slight change in centre of rotation of the car. I remember thinking it was interesting and worthy of consideration, but not what I would call conclusive or scientific.
The conclusion was that the closer to the middle of the car the viewpoint was the closer to the middle of the car the centre of rotation also became.
So although I don't feel it personally, I don't think it necessarily means that you are crazy.

As a controller user I can confirm that it is much much easier to control tyre wear using a wheel and pedals. You can drive in a way to lessen wear (steer less/more gentlyvfor fronts, Accel easier/when straight for rears) but you can both feel it better and control it better with wheel/pedals
Click to expand...
Are you on PS5?

I agree 100% on steering and maybe others with better setups will disagree... but with the dualsense triggers I am much more accurate with the throttle compared to my G29. But then it's not exactly realistic...
 
Yes, it is easier on dualsense than dualshock for sure. I was very much over-generalising, of course. Still far from the range of motion of a pedal or wheel.

I mostly use right stick for Accel and R2 for brake, which is great on both PS4&5 for ease of gentle throttle input (although I drive a bit too sideways to take any advantage of that)
Your comparison is interesting, I'm surprised dualsense beats the g29, do you attribute that to the extra feel of the dualsense triggers? Or do you feel they have more sensitivity?
 
I always used bumper cam but recently switched to cockpit as it feels a bit more immersive. I'm quicker on bumper but mainly because on many cars the drivers hands on the wheel obscure the apex of tighter corners...
 
Mane
I remember I big thing about someone analysing the different views in Sport years ago and they concluded that in fact there was a slight change in centre of rotation of the car. I remember thinking it was interesting and worthy of consideration, but not what I would call conclusive or scientific.
The conclusion was that the closer to the middle of the car the viewpoint was the closer to the middle of the car the centre of rotation also became.
So although I don't feel it personally, I don't think it necessarily means that you are crazy.
Click to expand...
Do you haev a link to this? I find it hard to believe that's true, not about there being an analysis, but that the COR changes at all based on the camera view. I think any effect would be nothing more than an illusion as the camera placement would have no impact on the physics unless obejects were attached to the camera as opposed to the camera attached to the object, which would be an absolutely bonkers thing for a programmer to do in a racing game.
 
Dave A
Do you haev a link to this? I find it hard to believe that's true, not about there being an analysis, but that the COR changes at all based on the camera view. I think any effect would be nothing more than an illusion as the camera placement would have no impact on the physics unless obejects were attached to the camera as opposed to the camera attached to the object, which would be an absolutely bonkers thing for a programmer to do in a racing game.
Click to expand...
Sadly not, like I said it was years ago and a quick search didn't find it.

I agree with what you say. Programming can have unintended consequences of coirse, still it seems far fetched.
Other people feel it enough to be interested in doing some analysis, which is noteworthy, I agree it is likely down to perception/visibility difference.
 
Cockpit view with a wheel feels more realistic to me in that the axis of rotation is where you'd expect and there's a better sense of where the individual tires are. But visibility isn't very good and I tend to misjudge apexes with it, so unless I'm just messing around, I always use bumper cam. My biggest wish for an update is more detailed FOV settings in cockpit view. I'm curious if it's possible to be as fast, but the fact that no pros use it is telling. Most of the streamers seem to use hood view, but I find sitting on the roof of the car is awkward.
 
One of the things that makes cockpit view feel different is how jiggly the camera is so you cant really tell what the car is doing. I'd be interested to see how well the frame rate holds up on PS4/PS4 Pro on cockpit view versus the others as that could make a difference as to how the car responds.
 
I am faster/braver on bumper and more precise with hood cam. I prefer cockpit view overall but for me it was a lot more difficult to gold some circuit experience so I was switching to bumper. Tho I prefer to race with cockpit view because I am not gonna be alien so I prefer fun/immersive way to enjoy the game and it is frustrating that Polyphony didn't add cockpit view settings like other titles (ACC, Project Cars etc.).
 
Last edited:
It's much easier to conserve tires when you have a wheel, have a much wider range of movement that allows for smaller inputs, and can feel the push against the tire limits. Also, just minimizing tire squeal is a good way to lower the amount your scrubbing those tires off, but the it takes a lot of practice to smoothly control your input on a tiny joystick. I used an extension on my steering stick when I used to use controller for a longer throw and more range.

As far as views the only difference is how comfortable someone is with it. I enjoy cockpit, but I'm not fast or as aware with it. Bumper feels ridiculous to me being on the ground and seeing none of the car. Chase is for replays... so I use hood for better or worse. When VR eventually comes to a GT title, I will likely in cockpit at that point.
 
Last edited:
Just on the "most of the top drivers" thing:

The streamers I follow, some of whom are "top drivers", are split roughly 50/50 between bonnet and bumper views.

Bumper
Kieran Blacklock
Luka Zavosic
Z28
Martin Grady

Bonnet
Rory Alexander
Terence Lallave
Alex Buller
Andrew Vasquez
Steve Alvarez Brown

Also, my driving buddy and I are split too - bonnet for me and bumper for him.

Personally, I switched from bumper to bonnet around about GT5 (bumper since GT3). I find the "perspective" gained helps me to correct more successfully when I lose the back end.
 
Last edited:
Monkey Man
Just on the "most of the top drivers" thing:

The streamers I follow, some of whom are "top drivers", are split 50/50 between bonnet and bumper views.

Bumper
Kieran Blacklock
Luka Zavosic
Z28
Martin Grady

Bonnet
Rory Alexander
Terence Lallave
Alex Buller
Andrew Racing

Also, my driving buddy and I are split too - bonnet for me and bumper for him.

Personally, I switched from bumper to bonnet around about GT5 (bumper since GT3). I find the "perspective" gained helps me to correct more successfully when I lose the back end.
Click to expand...
You can add arguably the biggest GT streamer to the list of bonnet/hood cams as well, SuperGT.
 
D'oh! Of course! He's the first I watched after all. Thanks man!

It's just a list of those I watch every night instead of telemavision off-the-top-of-my-head.

Can't believe I forgot the GOAT, Stevie-boy. :gtpflag:
 
The physics aren’t different, view is just what you feel comfortable with. Having a wheel will let you have smoother precise inputs over a controller.

I have never liked cockpit on a flat screen with no peripheral vision and using a controller. I play chase cam and have always been able to get gold in everything and win online.
 
Last edited:
The driving will vary because your perception will be different, therefore the handling will have sutil differences.
Other than that, the car should and seems to behave the same.
 
Monkey Man
Just on the "most of the top drivers" thing:

The streamers I follow, some of whom are "top drivers", are split roughly 50/50 between bonnet and bumper views.

Bumper
Kieran Blacklock
Luka Zavosic
Z28
Martin Grady

Bonnet
Rory Alexander
Terence Lallave
Alex Buller
Andrew Racing
Steve Alvarez Brown

Also, my driving buddy and I are split too - bonnet for me and bumper for him.

Personally, I switched from bumper to bonnet around about GT5 (bumper since GT3). I find the "perspective" gained helps me to correct more successfully when I lose the back end.
Click to expand...
Bumper
Igor Fraga
Mikail Hizal
 

Latest Posts

Back