Does GT5 have an identity crisis?

[Mekanaizer]

First of all I want to make it clear that this is not a whinge, a complaint or a gripe. I've more than got my moneys worth out of this game and have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Having said that, what is GT5 for?

It is billed as the "Real Driving Simulator" but if that is what it is why is it that I can only drive on race tracks? And why is it that the only way to progress in the game is by winning races? That's not simulation. I would have thought a simulation would have a free roam mode where I could go anywhere.

So is it a racing game? Well I guess it is partially but there are better ones out there. I was at a lan party last weekend and was playing GTR Evolution on the PC and it struck me how much more realistic the feeling of driving was than GT5.

Also if it is primarily a racing game why are so many of the cars useless for racing? Unless you're going to do a one make race who in their right mind is going to enter a Subaru 360 for example against anything faster than a bicycle? That car (and many others) belong in a simulator but where is the simulator part of the game to use them in?

You should try some PS3 games and I can name a old one now: the 2008 Ferrari Challenge: Trofeo Pirelli. The A.I. is way head of any GT. The rain effects the same, wet tarmac ReaLy afects driving, Flags (thought incomplete it as a flag system, try overtake on a yellow zone and you get a penalty), the greatest weight transfer simulated in a game, front (big) engine cars realy handle like in real life at high&low speeds and more...

Thought the game is missing the pit-stops (license/gameplay issues), there is no tyre change or refuel on the real life Ferrari Challenge: Trofeo Pirelli championship, thought you may have permision to pit for other reasons and timed in real life.

 

[RWB1213]

If GT5 exists because of it's fan base, then it is clear that it DOES suffer from an identity crisis. The debate in this thread, between fans is clearly Driving Simulator vs. Racing Simulator. Some want both, but there hasn't been a title to do both very well. Given the competitive market of racing/driving titles, I think PD needs to look at this split very closely as they look at development of GT6. I for one would prefer more attention be placed on the racing aspect of the game. I have a nice car IRL, why would I want to sit in front of my PS3 to simulate traffic signs and stop lights? So I can feel cool at a stop light in a Zonda R? Not my thing. I'm concerned that Kaz's latest fascination is with a real world sandbox type setup for GT. My hopes are on better game progression and better AI/Racing sim . . .

 

[Destinkeys]

GT6 needs to come in TWO incarnations.

A PURE 'driving simulation' with no racing at all, free roam, normal driving hazards (if EA can make HP and you dodge regular traffic, so can PD), and more content by way of a massive track (oops, I meant 'road'!) layouts, maybe a REAL online map creator, etc.. A chance for Kaz to practice his 'mimetics'...

And, finally a PURE racing simulator, with qualifying, proper track rules and penalties, race cars ONLY (all liveried and RM'd), real tracks, proper rally courses, proper NASCAR rules and regs, championships, series, drag racing, flags, and basically everything about racing MISSING from GT5.

GT6D and GT6R. Same physics engine for both.

That's how you make EVERYONE happy, not just the tiny minority currently happy with GT5's half-assed approach to BOTH aspects.

 

[Big Ron]

And, finally a PURE racing simulator, with qualifying, proper track rules and penalties, race cars ONLY (all liveried and RM'd), real tracks, proper rally courses, proper NASCAR rules and regs, championships, series, drag racing, flags, and basically everything about racing MISSING from GT5.

This is the better solution. This is, what GT started with, but never did a perfect job.

 

[sher_da_putt]

Gran Turismo has always had its own awesome style. If GT5 needs any improvement its simply the racing structure, rally needs to be more than just a set of special events, A.I needs to keep up, and events need some cleverly thought up restrictions. These sort of things are all that needs done, and this game will be a perfect racing game aswel as driving game. Keep the massive variation of cars, keep adding weird and interesting features.

Just look at all the past GT games and think why we played the heck out of them compared to other games that were better at creating a racing simulation.

They definitely have an identity crisis (somehow I think they didn't have enough time, yeah 5 years just weren't enough for them) but hey with updates anything is possible and GT5 is still the best game Ive ever played.

 

[Destinkeys]

Gonna need them BOTH, or the whining would become epic.

Mind you, I bet the racing title sold 1000:1 over the driving title. Which makes, IMO, the excuses that GT5 is a 'driving' game the rubbish it really is. But explains why PD hasn't actually been so dumb as to do it.

 

[Sm0k3:D]

I can see a big mistake in this game: PD did a big effort in doing nice graphics... but they have't improved their "game formula" for years...
With the same "feeling" on driving cars (now i'm talking about physics) they could do a better game.
I think they can do something better in online. (Most important featoure for me, same to other features) But just, they get lost in graphics, and doing versions of skylines to reach 1000 cars...
Yes, identity crisis. I'm sure of it.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Just look at all the past GT games and think why we played the heck out of them compared to other games that were better at creating a racing simulation.

Are you sure it didn't have something to do with it being the only game of it's kind with hundreds of production cars?

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that was why I loved GT1-3. As soon as competition hit the market, I was no longer married to that one-of-a-kind game and could play the field.

 

[eyeamg0dly]

what i dont understand is that you guys know exactly what you were getting into when you decided to play this game. its not like pd did some kind of bait and switch marketing, or lied about what the game play was going to be about. it is same game (more addons) all these years.

i guess what im trying to say is, whenever a new mario brothers game came out, i knew it wasnt going to play like street fighter. so what are you guys trying to compare this to? did you not realize in the first 4 games of the series that racing was easy ? why did you still play those games? why are you complaining about this one ?

 

[SS_1182]

Good points in the OP. The thing that I don't like is that if they're going to have so much racing in the game, they could spend even a little bit of time to make it incredibly better. Time trials, pole positions, even half-decent AI rather than moving obstacles. If they continue to improve the online portion it will still be a great game.

 

[CarreraGT]

GT is its own game and should not be compared to others.

You've got to be kidding right? Maybe that's why GT5 turned out the way it did, because PD were working in a vault and payed no attention to what competitors like Turn 10 are doing. Reality is, it's a competitive market. It doesn't matter who came up with the idea originally, you either keep up or get left behind.

Admit it, guys... GT5 has great physics (for a console), and a great 'Ring. And that's about IT...

Bang on, my thoughts exactly 👍 Don't get me wrong, those two things really are fantastic, but is that enough to keep me going until GT6? Considering I've already gone back to F1 2010, I doubt it...

 

[Uxi]

We got a bunch of features from GT4 with 1.06... Game is really far more complete on those little things that made you wonder why they were there in GT4 but not in GT5.... Seems obvious that SCEI forced PD to release before they were ready, so they could get the holiday sales in.

Even if we don't get the A-spec from GT4 in the next couple patches, they could do something pretty easily and give us all the seasonals in their own A-spec tab. That's a good number of races there...

They could seriously one-up GT4 by giving us a race creator functionality in the track creator... combined with online League and/or team/guild/clan management, that would make an already great game something beyond epic.

 

[ElSecundo]

You've got to be kidding right? Maybe that's why GT5 turned out the way it did, because PD were working in a vault and payed no attention to what competitors like Turn 10 are doing. Reality is, it's a competitive market. It doesn't matter who came up with the idea originally, you either keep up or get left behind.

'Keeping up' doesn't mean making the same thing the other guys made. Nobody needs another Forza -- we have that already.

If you're going to make a product that you know won't be replaced for years, you'd better come up with something distinctly your own. For all its faults, GT5 is unique in the marketplace, and that's why it continues to be successful. In a competitive market, you can't be successful just doing what everyone else does.

I'm typing this while I'm watching my impatient driver in a knockout car (Citroen GT race car) push a JGTC car out of the way in the pouring rain at Suzuka. It's like watching a great race, not knowing the outcome, and having a say about how it turns out. No other car-based game gives me this. I refer to it as a 'car-based game', because racing simulator just doesn't cover it.

I'm glad PD was given some leeway here, because if we let the fans decide, every single racing game would be the same.

 

[CarreraGT]

'Keeping up' doesn't mean making the same thing the other guys made. Nobody needs another Forza -- we have that already.

If you're going to make a product that you know won't be replaced for years, you'd better come up with something distinctly your own. For all its faults, GT5 is unique in the marketplace, and that's why it continues to be successful. In a competitive market, you can't be successful just doing what everyone else does.

I'm typing this while I'm watching my impatient driver in a knockout car (Citroen GT race car) push a JGTC car out of the way in the pouring rain at Suzuka. It's like watching a great race, not knowing the outcome, and having a say about how it turns out. No other car-based game gives me this. I refer to it as a 'car-based game', because racing simulator just doesn't cover it.

I'm glad PD was given some leeway here, because if we let the fans decide, every single racing game would be the same.

Yeah imagine a game with fan input, it would have realistic AI, qualifying and full racing rules, realistic damage, licenced race series, leaderboards and plenty of real world tracks. I couldn't bare the thought of it...

You make it sound like a bad thing that Turn 10 have adopted a similar formula to Gran Turismo. The market is driven by competition and if anything competition = better games for us. I credit Turn 10 for being able to challenge such an established formula and, in many regards, improve on it.

Keeping up means not only refining what is existing, but challenging new ideas. GT5 added content, but that's about it. The racing is still bland, AI is woeful, B-spec is a complete waste of time, and everything else is a carry over from GT4.

I have always been a GT fan but bring on FM4 I say 👍

 

[splaky]

Did he give up on this? i would love to have a free roam

They should make a free roam and have the Autobahn in it 👍 21,000 kms galore

 

[pay2021]

First of all I want to make it clear that this is not a whinge, a complaint or a gripe. I've more than got my moneys worth out of this game and have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Having said that, what is GT5 for?

It is billed as the "Real Driving Simulator" but if that is what it is why is it that I can only drive on race tracks? And why is it that the only way to progress in the game is by winning races? That's not simulation. I would have thought a simulation would have a free roam mode where I could go anywhere.

So is it a racing game? Well I guess it is partially but there are better ones out there. I was at a lan party last weekend and was playing GTR Evolution on the PC and it struck me how much more realistic the feeling of driving was than GT5.

Also if it is primarily a racing game why are so many of the cars useless for racing? Unless you're going to do a one make race who in their right mind is going to enter a Subaru 360 for example against anything faster than a bicycle? That car (and many others) belong in a simulator but where is the simulator part of the game to use them in?

Look, they are racing series of one brand, you cant imagine how much they are, and sure you have a mono brand of Subaru 360 somewhere.

I understand when you say free roam, took a car and track and go, the GTA comparisions... well.

GT5 is a racing game, not a racing simulator, a simulator is just that, you dont have carrer or gifts or something you just go drive alone or with others.

You shoud try rFactor, that is the "Real Driving Simulator", no doubt, and you can drift in rF (someguy says you can do it in GT5 but not in rF, challenging the physics engine), forget GT5 and wait GT6, pick rF now, you gonna have so much fun.👍

 

[freedomweasel]

They should make a free roam and have the Autobahn in it 👍 21,000 kms galore

Have you driven on the autobahn? Hop in your car, and jump on the nearest interstate. Now imagine yourself able to go a little faster. Now imagine the people in the car next to you are speaking German. Done.

Someone please explain to me the allure of driving on city streets, commuter roads, and interstates in traffic while following the rules of the road. I do that every single day on the way to and from work. Doing it in a sports car would just be more uncomfortable and frustrating. I just don't understand.

As I said, the Fuji mountain road track in Forza 3 is sweet. It's a little back road hill climb type track. All the fun of a backroad drive without all the real world annoyances like traffic and speed limits. Driving in city can be fun, we have an autocross event downtown every year. A few blocks get closed down and we can drive like mad. Driving those same streets 24 hours later is terrible and boring though.

 

[RWB1213]

Yeah imagine a game with fan input, it would have realistic AI, qualifying and full racing rules, realistic damage, licenced race series, leaderboards and plenty of real world tracks. I couldn't bare the thought of it...

You make it sound like a bad thing that Turn 10 have adopted a similar formula to Gran Turismo. The market is driven by competition and if anything competition = better games for us. I credit Turn 10 for being able to challenge such an established formula and, in many regards, improve on it.

Keeping up means not only refining what is existing, but challenging new ideas. GT5 added content, but that's about it. The racing is still bland, AI is woeful, B-spec is a complete waste of time, and everything else is a carry over from GT4.

I have always been a GT fan but bring on FM4 I say 👍

Dead on.

 

[KiroKai]

First of all I want to make it clear that this is not a whinge, a complaint or a gripe. I've more than got my moneys worth out of this game and have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Having said that, what is GT5 for?

It is billed as the "Real Driving Simulator" but if that is what it is why is it that I can only drive on race tracks? And why is it that the only way to progress in the game is by winning races? That's not simulation. I would have thought a simulation would have a free roam mode where I could go anywhere.

So is it a racing game? Well I guess it is partially but there are better ones out there. I was at a lan party last weekend and was playing GTR Evolution on the PC and it struck me how much more realistic the feeling of driving was than GT5.

Also if it is primarily a racing game why are so many of the cars useless for racing? Unless you're going to do a one make race who in their right mind is going to enter a Subaru 360 for example against anything faster than a bicycle? That car (and many others) belong in a simulator but where is the simulator part of the game to use them in?

(Sorry, I'm going a bit off topic in the following posts, just wanted to say it.)

I agree to your whole post, especially the bold part. I'd LOVE to have a game where I can just drive free roam (with good graphics, not like "3D Fahrschulsimulator"), but there's no good game out in the world (at least no game I know).

Of course I just could buy Need for Speed Hot Pursuit, start Free Roam, and drive with 200 mph through the streets. But that's unrealistic... way too unrealistic for me.
I tried Test Drive Unlimited on the PS2... totally fail. No manual suspension means you can't cruise using a high gear, and the physics are quite unrealistic, you nearly can't drive constantly on a low speed if you don't own a wheel with pedals.
I also tried GTA, at least you have quite good graphics, a big choice of cars, and you can go anywhere you want. But well, San Andreas became boring... and the car physics are very unrealistic.

I tried the following in GT5: When I started the Grand Tour, after completing some events, I made the race on the Toskana Road with the Murciélago LP640. As I tried it the first time, I was totally amazed of the track, the car (it was the first time I drove a Lamborghini in GT5), and the whole setting. Than I restarted, but I didn't race, I only cruised.
After about 5 minutes of driving at about 50 km/h in the 6th gear and listening to the AWESOME sound of the car, I came to the finish.
I watched the replay 2 times, enjoying the awesome graphics and sound (and taking some pictures of the LP640 and the sunrise on the track), than I started the race again and got silver.

That was one of the best moments I ever had with Gran Turismo 5, together with the first race I ever drove in GT5 (GT-R on Cape Ring against some Ferraris, 2x SLS, MP4-12C and so on).
Why aren't there more races in GT5 that are like the Grand Tour?

Hhm... now I've written this text, I've no idea what it has to do with the title 'Does GT5 have an identity crisis?', I will post it anyway.

Oh, and if there's anybody in the world knowing a good Free Roam-Simulation, please post the name and maybe a link here or contact me via PM.

EDIT: Didn't saw that post:

Someone please explain to me the allure of driving on city streets, commuter roads, and interstates in traffic while following the rules of the road. I do that every single day on the way to and from work. Doing it in a sports car would just be more uncomfortable and frustrating. I just don't understand.

I, personally, just like cruising on open streets and having the freedom to do whatever you like (like in GTA).
Driving sports cars in the real world is maybe uncomfortable (but I don't think driving an SL55 AMG for example is uncomfortable ), but if you sit on your lounge, listening to the (incredible *-*) sound of your Murciélago driving at a low speed...
Well, I can't really explain it, maybe I'm just a freak, but I love driving at low speed in a beautiful city, as I can't do it in real world (I'm too young to drive myself and I don't have enough money to buy a Gallardo, GT-R or something like that), I want to do it virtually.
Maybe that's an explanation... at least it's the way I'd personally explain it.

 

[Bigbazz]

Rfactor is great, massive fan and raced it loads. but GT5 is better for drifting, miles better to be honest. Rfactor is good but its really not anything out of this world, slow car physics and drifting/power oversteer are just better in GT5.

Rfactor 2 however, that is likely to be a different story.


iRacing or Netkar are the closest things to real simulators, and you know what, not even they get everything right. GT5 is a great simulator / game, just as much as Rfactor is.


The key is that the simulation is in the driving physics, driving does not have to mean driving around a city, when you race on a circuit you are still driving. The Real Driving Simulator really can mean anything, its clear that the game is aimed at driving many cars, and racing them. I love the free roam idea, but no chance i would be obeying any speed limits or laws.

 

[VBR]

If GT5 exists because of it's fan base, then it is clear that it DOES suffer from an identity crisis. The debate in this thread, between fans is clearly Driving Simulator vs. Racing Simulator. Some want both, but there hasn't been a title to do both very well. Given the competitive market of racing/driving titles, I think PD needs to look at this split very closely as they look at development of GT6. I for one would prefer more attention be placed on the racing aspect of the game. I have a nice car IRL, why would I want to sit in front of my PS3 to simulate traffic signs and stop lights? So I can feel cool at a stop light in a Zonda R? Not my thing. I'm concerned that Kaz's latest fascination is with a real world sandbox type setup for GT. My hopes are on better game progression and better AI/Racing sim . . .

+1, my sig say's it all.

 

[ElSecundo]

Yeah imagine a game with fan input, it would have realistic AI, qualifying and full racing rules, realistic damage, licenced race series, leaderboards and plenty of real world tracks. I couldn't bare the thought of it...

You make it sound like a bad thing that Turn 10 have adopted a similar formula to Gran Turismo. The market is driven by competition and if anything competition = better games for us. I credit Turn 10 for being able to challenge such an established formula and, in many regards, improve on it.

Keeping up means not only refining what is existing, but challenging new ideas. GT5 added content, but that's about it. The racing is still bland, AI is woeful, B-spec is a complete waste of time, and everything else is a carry over from GT4.

I have always been a GT fan but bring on FM4 I say 👍

So, lay out what's needed, and every car-based game should have those same features? Same interface, too, while we're at it?

Competition doesn't mean doing things the same way, does it? Can you imagine if Porsche tried to design a supercar that looked like a Ferrari? Let the Germans be German, let the Italians be Italian, and enjoy their own unique visions of what a supercar should be. Same with video games -- don't force one to try and be the other.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with leaderboards, real world tracks, etc, but I'd like to see variety in my games, too. Forza provides things that GT5 can't, and GT5 provides things that Forza can't. Competitors, yes, but extremely different styles, and I enjoy both. But if the style isn't to your liking, why force a square peg into a round hole?

Seems people have pigeon-holed GT5 into just a 'racing game', and if you're of the mindset that GT5 isn't meant for anything different, then you'll try and force PD into doing things the way you interpret a 'racing game' has to be. Well, it doesn't have to be any particular way, and I totally enjoy the differences, the way we like Porsches and Ferraris as different cars.

In fact [edit: should read, in my opinion], a game will get an identity crisis if the creators get forced into turning it into something it's not.

 

[Jack002]

+1, my sig say's it all.

IMO, GT needs to grow up as a series & start imitating real world motor racing, instead of aspiring to be more like Pokemon!

So maybe a future version should have a setting in the control panel:

Like real world racing [ ] yes [ ] no

 

[Marmurma]

Interestingly, the consensus is that things went downhill after GT3 -- right when qualification was scrapped. There's little doubt in my mind that it would be in PD's best interests to refocus the series on accurately simulating race events. Just look at FM3, for example; it's leading in review scores despite suffering from inferior graphics and physics.

 

[defaultoasis]

What we have here for example is a game with almost every Super GT car in it, but no real Super GT racing series.

We DON'T have "almost every Super GT car". Far from it actually.

 

[ElSecundo]

Interestingly, the consensus is that things went downhill after GT3 -- right when qualification was scrapped.

Not so sure about 'consensus'. Many people (on this board at least) seem to indicate that even numbered releases (GT2 and GT4) were the best, many stating that GT4 is the best of the bunch. I'd conjecture that if we took all of the GT3 and GT4 owners, we'd probably be pretty split.

You might get consensus, though, that removing qualification was a step in the wrong direction, while things may have improved in other areas. Personally, I did like the option to qualify in GT4's championship races. I didn't like to qualify all the time, but it was very handy in some situations. 👍

 

[Destinkeys]

PD has, in effect, made an incredibly photo accurate reproduction of a soccer field and team, and incredibly accurate soccer moves by the players, then forgot to make a game where these guys actually play SOCCER...

Oh, sure, online, if you can get 22 people all in one lobby, and get them to all agree to NOT do all the many things that soccer players aren't allowed to (voluntarily), and can deal with the goalie being able to handball anywhere on the field without a penalty, you can SORT of pull off a semi-decent game of soccer.

But why is it so HARD? And why was the one-player part completely UNLIKE soccer? And the weirdest thing is, the game creator is a semi-pro soccer player!

Epic fail.

 

[Strittan]

Slightly off-topic, but to be honest, GT is for kids, but what does one do if one can't afford a powerful gaming computer and an iRacing subscription?

Even if PD would go more serious, there would still be way too many douchebags online that are everything but serious and basically suck.

I really had my hopes up that GT5 could compete with the way more serious PC sims, but I was wrong, and I guess it's impossible to achieve on a console, because it's simply not what people buy a console for.

It's still fun though (for an hour or so and if don't have a job, like me), and I hope they give us more online options, so that we who want to be serious is allowed to be.

 

[Destinkeys]

The thing that grinds my gears is that most of what the 'racing sim' players want could VERY easily be added as OPTIONS, so the kids still get a game they can play easily.

Tougher collision detection and penalty, qualifying, upgraded AI more aware of your car choice and upgrade level and driving style, License Tests and Events made hard enough that few can gold them... None of this stuff HAS to be the base level for playing the game. But as TBH, pretty minor patches (except the AI, and if other games can get them right, then so can PD) it seems so LITTLE to add to GT5 to please SO MANY players (over the age of 16!).

Sure, let the goalie touch the ball anywhere on the field if you want to. But put in real soccer rules for people that want to play real soccer. I'm sure they'd be surprised at how many there are!

 

[deftonesmx17]

Let the Germans be German, let the Italians be Italian, and enjoy their own unique visions of what a supercar should be.

Is that why the Gallardo (Italian) and the R8 (German) share many of the same parts?

We DON'T have "almost every Super GT car". Far from it actually.

Um, yeah it pretty much has all of the GT500 class ones in regards to the 2008-2010 season.

If I am not mistaken, all it's missing is the new Honda HSV that was used in the 2010 season.