Does this explain AI contact/aggression?

[Bo]

After pondering the AI for a while, and looking at posts on 'aggressive' AI that wants to take you out at every opportunity, I have come to a conclusion. My conclusion is the AI are, quite simply, very wimpy and would never want to touch you. They brake very conservatively, they move offline to let you past etc, so there is no way they would ever try to take you out. So why do they run into the back of you and end up spinning you out? I think i've stumbled across the answer.

Everyone's been complaining about the NASCAR series, where you go around them on the high side and they follow you up, only to tag you at just the wrong time and spin you out. I do not believe this is aggressive AI. I was doing the classic series today in a Daytona Coupe, and on the first corner at Apricot Hill I went up the inside of another Shelby very cleanly - he lifted off and let me drift right up the inside, but he immediately cut across into the back of me. This is very similar to what happens in the NASCAR series, and i've come across other instances of it when playing. When I watched the replay from this, I saw the car had boundary issues. This means that even though the cars did not visibly make contact, the cars still touched. If the boundaries were fine, the car would have just pulled behind mine without making contact.

This means that because the AI are programmed to move back onto their line as soon as possible, they will end up tagging you in the most unfortunate of places, ultimately sending you off the track. It therefore means that the so called aggressive AI is nothing more than a small coding glitch.

Please discuss my findings .

 

[VBR]

I thoroughly agree. PD aren't very good at programming AI, let alone aggressive AI. Like you said, it's probably just a case of them cutting back onto the racing line too early.

 

[Bo]

I'm going to get some pictures today that hopefully prove my theory.

 

[IceMan PJN]

They're a problem with NASCAR again? As I recall, in GT5 they were bad about slam-drafting, by which they gain on you by drafting but just keep coming, not respectfully stopping just short of you or even lightly contacting but rather banging into you as hard as they can. That wouldn't be so bad on a straight, but not when turning left at 200 MPH.

 

[NurburgRay]

No, Kaz just programmed the AI to be ruthless,careless and hatefull murderers! They will kill you if they get a chance and when they done that, they will go after your family and friends!

Ai's...ai's everywhere!!!!!!

 

[nuvolari7]

No, Kaz just programmed the AI to be ruthless,careless and hatefull murderers! They will kill you if they get a chance and when they done that, they will go after your family and friends!

Ai's...ai's everywhere!!!!!!

 

[Bo]

@IceMan PJN The issue here is what people have been referring to as aggressive AI, as they seem to tag your rear end at every opportunity. What I believe it is down to is boundary issues, as demonstrated below - the physical boundaries are beyond the visible boundaries:



Because the AI are programmed to move within the visible boundaries, they move thinking that they are safe. However, the physical boundaries touch, causing contact, making it look as if they are taking you out. See below for an example:

 

[Spongeinside]

I think you're on to something... I've noticed cars touching without the car models actually touching...

 

[Bo]

I think you're on to something... I've noticed cars touching without the car models actually touching...

If anybody has contact in a race that is purely down to the AI moving into you, please take pictures and post them here. It could explain and prove the biggest AI flaw on GT6.

 

[Nuschel01]

Other cars seem to have too short physical boundaries, noticed this when I tried to win the 24 Hours Minutes of LeMans in the 2012 DeltaWing yesterday

 

[Bo]

Other cars seem to have too short physical boundaries, noticed this when I tried to win the 24 Hours Minutes of LeMans in the 2012 DeltaWing yesterday

Yes, it seems they either bounce off thin air or go through each other.

 

[Grayfox]

I have known the collision boxes for the cars are screwed.

It is like someone at PD just makes one large rectangle prism over the car and that is it.
A proper way to do it is to make several small boxes so it matches the static mesh.

 

[omnibusse]

Very interesting findings! Had some races dumped in championships due to AI cars "crashing" into mine (because they did not brake in time) or when changing tracks behind me.

 

[starknight97]

When were overtaking them on the inside via braking better than them (obviously) they just wanna go back on their line asap and act like we are not there even though they should, even when they do know we are there that problem occurs anyway.
This is the result on only 2 people working on the AI (including sounds).

 

[daan]

Because the AI are programmed to move within the visible boundaries, they move thinking that they are safe.

The AI cannot "see", so a visible boundary will probably mean nothing to them.

I'm sure it would be easier to program them to know where the box is rather than the numerous different individual shapes of each car.

 

[The_Rpg_Moogle]

Yes, it seems they either bounce off thin air or go through each other.

Having read your findings, I've got my 0.2 cents to add here, as I've had a hunch for a long time and this seems to hint at that direction. What if:

A) This is the reason for the delayed B-Spec? Could it be the A.I. is not up to snuff yet?
B) This would mean the B-Spec update will come with an A.I. improvement? It's not that farfetched if you think about it, right?
C) Perhaps a little off-topic, but what if the same update came with the missing endurance races? It has been confirmed B-Spec will be back in the same form it was in GT4, so they wait with these events until you can actually switch between you and your A.I. drivers?

Also, perhaps the exclusion of endurance races can be explained because PD does not think the A.I. is up for it? I know they have been hard to listen to the fans the past few years, but they've been changing that since a while, and I see proof of that time and time again.

I still believe GT6 will become much better than it already is (I REALLY, REALLY love it so far), even if it comes in slow steps. My body is ready.

Please let me know what you think. If you want to call me a complete nutcase then that's fine too. Don't hold back

 

[starknight97]

Having read your findings, I've got my 0.2 cents to add here, as I've had a hunch for a long time and this seems to hint at that direction. What if:

A) This is the reason for the delayed B-Spec? Could it be the A.I. is not up to snuff yet?
B) This would mean the B-Spec update will come with an A.I. improvement? It's not that farfetched if you think about it, right?
C) Perhaps a little off-topic, but what if the same update came with the missing endurance races? It has been confirmed B-Spec will be back in the same form it was in GT4, so they wait with these events until you can actually switch between you and your A.I. drivers?

Please let me know what you think. If you want to call me a complete nutcase then that's fine too. Don't hold back

I think all of that is true (I hope) better AI from b spec can be applied to the career mode then as a result of b spec drivers having the ability to drive for you in longer races PD will then be comfortable with adding endurance races because the majority of players will find it easier to complete them.

 

[The_Rpg_Moogle]

I think all of that is true (I hope) better AI from b spec can be applied to the career mode then as a result of b spec drivers helping you in the endurance races they add long races to help casuals participate in them also.

Indeed. Seeing as GT6 is leaning more towards first time players, they perhaps thought the traditional endurance events were too much for casual gamers.

I know there are many fans of Endurance races, as am I but seriously guys, 24 hours is too much for me to handle...

 

[Bo]

The AI cannot "see", so a visible boundary will probably mean nothing to them.

I'm sure it would be easier to program them to know where the box is rather than the numerous different individual shapes of each car.

I meant in terms of programming - PD haven't taken into consideration the dodgy boundary issues, so they have programmed it in terms of visible (theoretically physical) and not actual physical. I noticed another example of this earlier this morning, although the other way round - I was passing a MKIV GT40 up Eau Rouge, and I was visibly nowhere near him, yet he still got nerfed sideways as if I had driven full-throttle into the side of him. If it was him doing it to me, it would look as if he was trying to push me off, but according to the coding he would still be inside the safe visible/theoretical physical boundary.

 

[R4nd0m]

It's far cheaper in resources to use the collision mesh to pretty much everything but the rendering, so I believe it's not related to them. Anyway, just a box is more than enough for many cars.

The AI problem is probably just a small coding issue.

 

[Bo]

It's far cheaper in resources to use the collision mesh to pretty much everything but the rendering, so I believe it's not related to them. Anyway, just a box is more than enough for many cars.

The AI problem is probably just a small coding issue.

It's not really, because you end up with this problem and things like wheels/bits of the car sinking through the ground.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Oh you're slowing down from the Mulsanne? It would be a shame if I rammed you...

 

[Bo]

Oh you're slowing down from the Mulsanne? It would be a shame if I rammed you...

But maybe they don't actually touch you - the visible boundary is the theoretical physical boundary. So if the car in question has boundary issues, which I think they all do to varying extents, they will touch you even though they shouldn't. Or you've been braking too early.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I brake just as the curbing appears right before the sharp right hander to the long stretch to Arnage. So I'm braking where real drivers will start. It's just that maybe I'm braking too hard or the draft is killing me.

 

[Bo]

Or maybe boundary issues?
They do have weird braking points though, wouldn't be surprised if they were completely unrelated. I think however there is a difference between thick AI and aggressive AI.

 

[RacingManiac]

Boundary is one thing, awareness is another. They need to have AI that knows where you are and avoid you. Go down the back stretch of the Ascari coming out of the hairpin. There is a kink then follow by the longest straight on that track. AI's line is weird in that they track out out of the kink(slowly), then they move towards the right of the track, then before the next kink leading to the uphill right hander, they move back towards the left side for that kink. If you are anywhere near them during those to left to right or right to left move on that straight, they will run into you....

They also take some weird line on corner entry if you are behind them and a lot of the time since that effectively block the inside, and you go outside they track out into you even if you are side by side.....

Funny thing is I've seen them avoid other AI cars when the car in front of them get into a powerside on corner exit the car behind will try to avoid them and sometimes also gets into a slide. But they don't do that for you...

 

[andryush]

Yeah, very annoying. Blind AI not letting you pass in corners... they seem to notice you only on straights, for example on Le Mans straight i wanted them to overtake me, so i can draft behind to go faster - they didn't wanted to overtake me!

 

[Tired Tyres]

No, Kaz just programmed the AI to be ruthless,careless and hatefull murderers! They will kill you if they get a chance and when they done that, they will go after your family and friends!

Ai's...ai's everywhere!!!!!!

No joke my innocent little BRZ GT300 was punted into a massive fully sideways slide by a totally mass murderer of a McLaren F1 in the Nurburgring 15 minute race in the really fast bit around the flying place.

What the hell was that McLaren playing at? You can't pass there! Anybody would think it had won Le Mans or something.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

The AI cannot anticipate the human inputs.


I admit, most times the AI has spun me have been a bit of "shared fault." Don't immediately blame the AI, either. Go and watch the replay, sometimes you'll notice that you expect them to back down because they're AI, and they simply don't.


Certainly, I race differently with AI than I do against other online players. I give online players more room to race properly, and tend to "force the issue" with AI way more. This leads to the occasional time when they'll just keep turning, almost oblivious to my existence.


AI = always dumb. You can't fix stupid, but you can avoid it by a 5-10' gap on most tracks. I learned that.

 

[NixxxoN]

The AI doesn't want to take you out. BUT it can take you out if you cross in front of the AI's racing line.

This is very easy to understand... In GT5, the AI pathetically slowed down everytime you get a bit in front and close to them... but in GT6, that's not the case anymore. The AI tries to never slow down even if you are close, which is good.

Now the only need to stop slowing down at the last part of the race to let the player win, and it will be pretty good.