Don't you think Nissan GT-R is too fast in this game?

[Derrict]

Then what is it? Nearly every review has stated it's because of the advanced electronics controlling the AWD, etc. Every modern mass produced car has computers up the wazoo so I wasn't insulting the car, but when just about everyone says that the computers make it faster, I'll believe them.

There are probably a lot of amateur and semi-pro racers on this forum. It's not just about the numbers. One subjective factor is the driver confidence in a vehicle. You can have a fast car that with a lot of grip, but if the driver isn't confident because the rear end is twitchy, that car won't be consistently fast. But, if you have an equal or slightly lessor car with a higher threshold of confidence, the driver will run consistently better laps.

The GT-R is just a freak of nature for a vehicle that weighs two-tons. On paper, it's hard to fathom how it can run with vehicles that have better power-to-weight ratios, but it's able to do so with a ridiculous amount of grip and high level of driver confidence.

 

[ZR1fan]

I find its actually pretty easy to upset a GTRs balance... my 599 has wrecked two of them with basically the same move.. a nice little tap to the inside corner of the rear bumper while the car is in midturn usually upsets it pretty easy... mind you both GTRs were AI and the 599 clipped them both accidentally.. but it just shows how much of that engineering is computers

 

[freedomweasel]

There are probably a lot of amateur and semi-pro racers on this forum. It's not just about the numbers. One subjective factor is the driver confidence in a vehicle. You can have a fast car that with a lot of grip, but if the driver isn't confident because the rear end is twitchy, that car won't be consistently fast. But, if you have an equal or slightly lessor car with a higher threshold of confidence, the driver will run consistently better laps.

The GT-R is just a freak of nature for a vehicle that weighs two-tons. On paper, it's hard to fathom how it can run with vehicles that have better power-to-weight ratios, but it's able to do so with a ridiculous amount of grip and high level of driver confidence.

Definitely true, and I understand that. My point, which I guess was poorly articulated, is that the GTR has a ton of technology in it that effectively adds speed around a track. For example, not all AWD systems are created equally, and as you say, a good one can greatly increase confidence and thus "add speed".

I never meant to imply that the car was fast just because it had a tricky bit of electronics.

I find its actually pretty easy to upset a GTRs balance... my 599 has wrecked two of them with basically the same move.. a nice little tap to the inside corner of the rear bumper while the car is in midturn usually upsets it pretty easy... mind you both GTRs were AI and the 599 clipped them both accidentally.. but it just shows how much of that engineering is computers

That's the PIT maneuver and will easily spin just about anything.

 

[ZR1fan]

Definitely true, and I understand that. My point, which I guess was poorly articulated, is that the GTR has a ton of technology in it that effectively adds speed around a track. For example, not all AWD systems are created equally, and as you say, a good one can greatly increase confidence and thus "add speed".

I never meant to imply that the car was fast just because it had a tricky bit of electronics.


That's the PIT maneuver and will easily spin just about anything.

yeah i know what the PIT is but the PIT the car would stay on his bumper.. the Ferrari merely tapped both cars... hell the 599 clipped the second one with its BACK bumper.. what i say when they come undone i mean the GT-Rs lose composure pretty violently.. no progressive powerslide or anything... the tail will just totally snap out and spin the car..

 

[jergto]

I think Tom Coronel in the GT-R will smoke his time he put up in the Viper.

Also, I think we can all agree that Viper is a borderline production car. The thing has adjustable suspension and race car aero. The result is incredible but is a bit unfair to use as a comparison.

With the 2012 GTR claiming a 7:24, I'm damn sure the 2010 Viper ACR with revised gearing (5th gear) and more time on the Nurb, it can fetch a 7:TEENS time. (7:13-7:19).
From what I read on the Viper forums, SRT engineers w/ Tom Coronel driving only had 4 laps and did the 7:22 time at the Nurburgring.

 

[ScariestGariest]

With the 2012 GTR claiming a 7:24, I'm damn sure the 2010 Viper ACR with revised gearing (5th gear) and more time on the Nurb, it can fetch a 7:TEENS time. (7:13-7:19).
From what I read on the Viper forums, SRT engineers w/ Tom Coronel driving only had 4 laps and did the 7:22 time at the Nurburgring.

Well revised gearing yea, but I think he meant the way it sits. You could go on all day with things like "if they changed this or added that it would totally do this"

 

[RASG809]

Yes and the bugatti

 

[Negrumir]

I think it's kinda odd that one of those things kept up with my TVR Speed 12, totally maxed out and set for top speed. We were on Circuit de la Sarthe with no chicanes and I drafted my way up to about 265 mph but this guy was still pulling away with no draft. Unless the tuning options let you put a rocket in that car, something was seriously up.

 

[GTP_roadrunner]

I've done some research but couldn't find anything on this topic, so...

I'm doing some car test on the Nurburgring GP/D with stock cars on Sport Hard Tires, just to compare the lap times between these supercars in stock conditions, and noticed that the GT-R is a lot faster than some other overpowered cars, even if they are lighter than the GT-R :

1:38.167 Nissan GT-R
1:38.875 Lexus LFA
1:38.988 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
1:39.334 Ferrari 599
1:39.762 Audi R8 5.2 FSI quattro

The gt-r has less HP (between 20-100) and is heavier (at least by 300-400 kg) than all the other cars, but still is the fastest in terms of lap time. How it can be possible? I can think at only one reason : The GT-R has a better stock set-up than the other cars, but still is a lot strange to me... What do you think?

It´s fully packed with assists and such. Even PD was involved designing the boardcomputer for this car which gives you high control about the car´s setup.

Additionally, I´ve read in a few tests, that every motorblock is assembled manually, and the performance output often is higher than generally stated. Measurements on dynos showed more than 30-40 bhp in many cases.

Nissan knows the drill

 

[skylinefx]

What scares me is the 0-60 time in a fully tuned GT-R SpecV. Has anyone measured the exact time it takes? It's like 2.x seconds?

 

[niky]

Too many people are focused on headline numbers without understanding them. The GT-R is heavy, yes, but weight does not affect grip. Given dry conditions and fresh rubber, an R35 is undoubtedly very fast through the corners.

And coming out of the corners, it has a transmission with tighter ratios and less lag than most, and it has a torquer of an engine. It may have "only" 480 hp, but the twin turbo V6 builds up as much torque as most turbocharged 600 hp engines. Which means it's putting out 400-480 hp to the wheels over a wider range of speeds than many 500+ hp cars, which will have areas in the rev range where they're not putting out as much power as the GT-R.

If it does a 7.24 with cut slicks (by the chief engineer's own admission), then it will go slower around any track with more conventional tires, simple as that.

The actual comment by the engineer is that stock tires were used, but that the tires used were not at full tread depth.

In other words, either stock tires with the treads shaved down or worn down. But he doesn't elaborate (and seems to suggest they're worn down). It's an important distinction. The prior, you could achieve through tens of thousands of kilometers of careful driving... and this will give you a few seconds a lap. The latter, through dozens of laps of the Nurb... and this will make those poor SP Sports a few seconds slower.

This isn't about the GT-R. This is about PD's bias to the GT-R.

Shame on them for making them so fast in the game when they're... well... errh... fast in real life? Funny. I could always get better laptimes in GT4 with my Mustang SVT Cobra than my GT-R, both with the same weight and power.

 

[GTP_roadrunner]

What scares me is the 0-60 time in a fully tuned GT-R SpecV. Has anyone measured the exact time it takes? It's like 2.x seconds?

Yes, that may be a realistic time. Don´t forget, nothing stands in the way of Godzilla

 

[checkyoursix]

The GT-R is heavy, yes, but weight does not affect grip.

Liked your post. But this is just a silly thing to say. The Nurb has undulations and transitions where the weight of the car moves around. It takes more time for a heavy car to shift it's weight, and until it does it the tires are at reduced grip.

Circuit racers are obsessed with reduced weight and for a good reason. The GT-R does what it does in spite of it's heavy weight.

It's about the weight *transfer*, heavy cars simply don't transfer weight fast as a light cars.

 

[soniae74]

Don't you think Nissan GT-R is too fast in this game?

Hell no! Best car in the game

 

[ZEROX]

what could be the causes that makes this car so fast?

Simple.
4WD.

The only car that have 4WD (its counter part) is the R8 V10.

 

[niky]

Liked your post. But this is just a silly thing to say. The Nurb has undulations and transitions where the weight of the car moves around. It takes more time for a heavy car to shift it's weight, and until it does it the tires are at reduced grip.

Circuit racers are obsessed with reduced weight and for a good reason. The GT-R does what it does in spite of it's heavy weight.

It's about the weight *transfer*, heavy cars simply don't transfer weight fast as a light cars.

I quite agree that transitions and bumps are killers for heavier cars... so does Nissan... which is why the GT-R is tuned quite stiff.

Still... those bumps are even worse for lighter, stiffer cars with rear-wheel drive, which do need to tiptoe through sections where an all-wheel drive vehicle can just barrel through.

Anyway... the comment was in reaction to people saying it has an amazing amount of grip for the weight... the weight doesn't (shouldn't) affect the grip... as long as it's not bumpy or wet. And with a zillion laps of the 'ring, it's quite possible for Nissan's test drivers to have found an extra few seconds where no one else had before.

Then again, there's the "wet" lap that Chris Harris did in a production GT-R that was only a few seconds slower than the "dry" lap that Porsche's "professional" test drivers did in their GT-Rs... a fact which I still find quite hilarious.

 

[checkyoursix]

Agreed the real life GT-R is awesome. I still think PD did a little something sneaky so we all can see the awesome a bit easier.

 

[GTP_roadrunner]

I quite agree that transitions and bumps are killers for heavier cars... so does Nissan... which is why the GT-R is tuned quite stiff.

Still... those bumps are even worse for lighter, stiffer cars with rear-wheel drive, which do need to tiptoe through sections where an all-wheel drive vehicle can just barrel through.

Anyway... the comment was in reaction to people saying it has an amazing amount of grip for the weight... the weight doesn't (shouldn't) affect the grip... as long as it's not bumpy or wet. And with a zillion laps of the 'ring, it's quite possible for Nissan's test drivers to have found an extra few seconds where no one else had before.

Then again, there's the "wet" lap that Chris Harris did in a production GT-R that was only a few seconds slower than the "dry" lap that Porsche's "professional" test drivers did in their GT-Rs... a fact which I still find quite hilarious.

Sure your statements are understandeable. Would be interesting to know which "professional" driver we talk about. Evo´s Harris is fast, no question.

But it it may be about Röhrl, Porsche has someone who setup ALL their cars since ´93 on the Schleife. Just to ensure that you enjoy your Porsche everywhere you´ll take it with you, surely even on a racetrack.

Besides, that "professional" guy is nearly twice the age of Harris

 

[Tonnie073]

Specs isnt everything, iys about tje feel

 

[niky]

Sure your statements are understandeable. Would be interesting to know which "professional" driver we talk about. Evo´s Harris is fast, no question.

But it it may be about Röhrl, Porsche has someone who setup ALL their cars since ´93 on the Schleife. Just to ensure that you enjoy your Porsche everywhere you´ll take it with you, surely even on a racetrack.

Besides, that "professional" guy is nearly twice the age of Harris

The "professionals" Porsche used to set their near-8 minute lap times with the GT-Rs, done side-by-side with 911s doing close to 7 and a half... when they called out Nissan on the laptimes.

Chris Harris may be very good for a journalist, but it's still amazing to me that he managed to set a "wet" lap close to Porsche's times... which made their calling out of Nissan seem very silly.

 

[GTP_roadrunner]

The "professionals" Porsche used to set their near-8 minute lap times with the GT-Rs, done side-by-side with 911s doing close to 7 and a half... when they called out Nissan on the laptimes.

Chris Harris may be very good for a journalist, but it's still amazing to me that he managed to set a "wet" lap close to Porsche's times... which made their calling out of Nissan seem very silly.

Sure it is amazing. But doesn´t have Harris some kind of racer background? Nevertheless, for me Clarkson makes the show, but Harris shows me some real details about a car

As you are describing that test, so much about a "neutral" testing enviroment. Röhrl easily couldn´t be part of this team.

 

[jergto]

Well revised gearing yea, but I think he meant the way it sits. You could go on all day with things like "if they changed this or added that it would totally do this"

What?
The 2010 ACR's have revised 5th gearing and the owners themselves know they could squeeze more out of the car compared to the '08 car which had run the track only 4 times.

It's only speculation, but to think that it couldn't run faster than a 7:22 is insane, did you see how many times in that fast lap the driver kept bouncing off the rev limiter?

 

[rssjib]

Another factor is that the GT-R makes more hp than the published ratings.......

Of course the advanced 4WD and launch control makes it easier to drive fast. Several different companies dynoed the GT-R and it was putting down almost 480hp at the wheels. Nissan published that it had 480hp but everyone knows that is measured at the crank, and there is always drivetrain loss of power. So that being said the GT-R probably makes closer to 530hp or so.

It is definitely a bad-ass car no doubt. In reality, they are incredibly expensive to maintain, and initially they had the issue with the transmission self-destructing after doing several hard launches. What did the tranny cost? Close to $18K??? Wow!

Still, it is one of my favorite cars of all time. I loved them in the earlier versions of GT, and I still love them now. I would take one in a hearbeat.....

Now, the SpecV is coming.....to America?? We hope....

 

[veyron1001]

Another factor is that the GT-R makes more hp than the published ratings.......

Of course the advanced 4WD and launch control makes it easier to drive fast. Several different companies dynoed the GT-R and it was putting down almost 480hp at the wheels. Nissan published that it had 480hp but everyone knows that is measured at the crank, and there is always drivetrain loss of power. So that being said the GT-R probably makes closer to 530hp or so.

It is definitely a bad-ass car no doubt. In reality, they are incredibly expensive to maintain, and initially they had the issue with the transmission self-destructing after doing several hard launches. What did the tranny cost? Close to $18K??? Wow!

Still, it is one of my favorite cars of all time. I loved them in the earlier versions of GT, and I still love them now. I would take one in a hearbeat.....

Now, the SpecV is coming.....to America?? We hope....

Car makes 480hp at the crank. Abuse any thing and it breaks

 

[OLDSKOOLACURA]

every car is different. some may have 50 more horse power (in real life any way), I don't know about the game.

this thread reminds me, i still have not bought one (time to start up the ps3)

 

[aragorn318]

Hey...check out Gran Turismo TV...There's a free episode on Nissan GT-R and Kaz explains!

 

[VQuick]

Computers drive the car... Ferraris are a lot more unforgiving, maybe a good driver in a F430 could beat a GT-R.

Considering the fact that most Ferraris don't even have awd, they are riddled with computerized aids. Even the F430 back in 2004 had an 'e-diff,' the equivalent of an active differential that worked similarly to the Active Yaw Control on Lancer Evolutions, distributing power based on steering angle and lateral g.

The latest crop of Ferraris such as the 458 and 599 GTO take things a step further. They are purposely designed to be inherently unstable for the sake of agility. Ferrari then uses their F1 technology know-how to create layers of electronic intrusion to keep the car manageable for the driver. The driver simply uses the steering wheel-mounted 'manettino' dial to choose how much assistance they want. With the aids completely disabled, the new cars are said to be very difficult to drive.

It's true that the GT-R has some serious computing power behind it, but the amount of other cars doing the exactly same thing may come as a surprise.

 

[VQuick]

The "professionals" Porsche used to set their near-8 minute lap times with the GT-Rs, done side-by-side with 911s doing close to 7 and a half... when they called out Nissan on the laptimes.

Chris Harris may be very good for a journalist, but it's still amazing to me that he managed to set a "wet" lap close to Porsche's times... which made their calling out of Nissan seem very silly.

That test by Porsche was a bit wacky. They claimed a 7:38 for their 911 Turbo. You'd think they'd celebrate, since it would be the first time a 911 Turbo broke the 7:40 barrier...but there wasn't much hoopla over it for some reason. However, they later made a big deal about the 7:39 for the revised 2010 997mkII Turbo with more power and other enhancements. Either that's a serious lack of progress, or they were fudging the times when they tested the original 997 Turbo against the GT-R.

Of course, as you mentioned, Chris Harris running a 7:55 in wet conditions to their 7:54 in the dry also made things look very suspect.

Porsche also failed to mention which tires were used on their GT-R, which would make a huge difference in the results. Nissan was claiming the GT-R ran a 7:38 on the Bridgestones, but a 7:29 on the Dunlop tires. Chris Harris admitted that they were using a Bridgestone-shod GT-R, and not one on the Dunlops, so their attempt to replicate the 7:29 lap was doomed from the start.

Finally, Porsche did not name the driver used, only saying that it was a 'Nurburgring specialist.' Hey, if the company's reputation is on the line with a comparison test like this, wouldn't the top gun, aka the legendary Walter Rohrl, the guy who developed these 911s and has done thousands upon thousands of Nurburgring laps, be the man for the job? If they did in fact use him, then why not give him the credit for the driving? 💡

That test was just a failed attempt at discrediting Nissan and showed that Porsche may indeed have felt a little threatened by the GT-R.

 

[niky]

Amazing... how many years of development to lose that one second?

Several different companies dynoed the GT-R and it was putting down almost 480hp at the wheels. Nissan published that it had 480hp but everyone knows that is measured at the crank, and there is always drivetrain loss of power. So that being said the GT-R probably makes closer to 530hp or so.

This was argued in the GT-R thread in the Cars in General section. I'm familiar with most of the dynos mentioned, especially the one that put out the claimed 480 whp number... and the idea that they show 530 bhp comes from unfamiliarity with the dynos. The Dynapack sheetof the early production GT-R that showed around 480 was showing calculated crank hp via the Torque Correction Factor built into the dyno, that's set by the dyno operator. (In fact, the TCF correction factor of 1.15 was quite visible in all the screen shots) Motor Trend's dynos were the worst. They applied SAE corrections to a turbo-charged car with a MAP sensor... said MAP sensor already compensates for atmospheric conditions, changing boost depending on temperature and air pressure.

In other words, all GT-Rs make around the same power on the dyno in varying conditions, with wildly varying boost levels. The confusion of how much power the GT-R actually makes comes from people applying wildly different SAE corrections to the dynos after the fact!

The worst was the Dastek dyno test by one small UK garage... they took two load-point readings and connected the two... the computer automatically created a curve between the points and their power peak reading came from the extrapolated curve! They didn't even bother to do a load-point test at the motor's claimed power peak.

And finally... not all dynos are built the same. Which is why those of us who deal with dyno-sheets all the time know that the only valid comparison is side-by-side comparison with another car on the same day and the same dyno. Which is why dyno-shoot-outs are so popular.

Credible, repeatable testing of stock GT-Rs side-by-side with other "480" bhp cars (such as the Mark I 997 Turbo) show the GT-R putting out around the same power.

But the new GT-R is supposed to make 520 hp. So it will.


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It's likely the Viper could put out better numbers with a revised final gear. But then that's a "street car" with racing aerodynamics and a front-splitter that actually has to be removed for road use.

 

[Derrict]

With the 2012 GTR claiming a 7:24, I'm damn sure the 2010 Viper ACR with revised gearing (5th gear) and more time on the Nurb, it can fetch a 7:TEENS time. (7:13-7:19).
From what I read on the Viper forums, SRT engineers w/ Tom Coronel driving only had 4 laps and did the 7:22 time at the Nurburgring.

Aren't the ACRs running Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires (similar to the Porsche GT3)? Those will have more grip than the Dunlop tires that the GT-R is running.