Dr. Kazunori Yamauchi Gives Lecture on Gran Turismo's Driving Physics & Production

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by GTPNewsWire, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    I understand exactly what is being said to me, don't mistake disagreement for a lack of understanding.


    No one uses camber as a tool to adjust tyre temps?

    Well apart from the entire motorsport industry that is.

    I'm not basing this on any other sim, I'm basing this on reality, and in reality camber is used to get as even as possible the tyres across the tyre face.
    https://nasaspeed.news/tech/wheels-...cordingly-can-pay-dividends-on-the-racetrack/
    http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43078
    https://www.elephantracing.com/tech-topics/reading-tire-temperature/
    https://www.toyo.co.uk/page/index/identifier/set-up-advice
    https://www.joesracing.com/rt-4219-tires-temperature.html
    I can keep going on this one......

    Now this one helps out by discussing how camber is used to ensure that a tyres maximum grip is obtained via tyre temps and also covers toe, interestingly not mentioning it as a tool for tyre temps at all.

    http://www.motorsportessentials.co.uk/car-setup/

    Even if you are using a set value, you are still simulating it. Just to a lower level of fidelity.


    If you're going to use a source then please link to it, with the appropriate time code.


    I'm not using other sims as a benchmark, I'm using reality.


    Have you ever done a standing start in a FWD car?

    I mean full throttle and lift the clutch?

    You see I'm not talking about PC2, or iRacing or AC. I'm talking about the areas in which GTS differs from reality.

    Interestingly enough its other members who tend to throw in the 'yea but this is wrong in other sim X' any time any discussion starts about areas that GTS falls down on in terms of its physics fidelity. Its almost as if the GT series has to be treated as a sacred cow, and no bad word can be said about what could well be issues.

    Now part of the reason why you may feel that GTS relates well to your car when you drive it on a public road is that you will never drive you car omn a public road in teh same way you would in GT! GTS has some quite clear and demonstrable issues with what seems to be a move from a low speed tyre model to a higher speed one around the 18 to 20mph mark. However this is only apparent when you are driving in a manner you would never do on the public road. Its physics are also reasonably good below and just up to the limit, its what happens when you go over the limit, particularity with understeer when things go wrong. Now that's not a place you should be finding yourself on a public road, as such you are comparing apples to oranges.

    Oh and in regard to iRacing, could not agree more with you, and its the tyre model that is the main cause of the issue, it mU and Cf values are all way to low, resulting in far less available grip in all situations that I have ever come across on the road, track or proving ground.



    Exactly how many racing drivers have you discussed this with?

    I've never met a racing driver who didn't understand the impact of tyre pressures and temps, not a single one.
     
  2. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    A competitive sim racer in GTS should not be required to fully understand tuning. Camber distributes the angle of the tire resulting in more or less grip of the inner outer tire walls. This will cause inner/outter to heat up faster than the other. camber changes does not increase/decrease the temperature of the tires.


    It would be very nice to have solid credentials to be compelling while you are going on in this topic.:gtpflag:


    You really don't know if it is the tyre model that is giving you problems. It could be human errors in the overall settings you are using. What are you experiencing going wrong at 18 to 20mph?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  3. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Yep, because its not a part of the sport being simulated at all is it!

    Wrong way around.

    The grip comes from the tyre temperature, and yes the camber does cause the tyre to used more effectively and heat up more and more evenly.

    I quite literaly posted up near a half dozen links that goes through that. Not only that, but you seem to have forgotten that I said the two main tools were tyre pressure and camber!

    What have my credentials have to do with the credibility of the sources I provided?

    However you are not the first to question it (oddly it always occurs when I query GT physics, never any other title), I have around twenty years experience in the motor industry, mainly in training. I've worked for dealerships, dealer group, manufacturers and third party suppliers, over the years I have gained hundreds of hours on track and proving grounds in both road and race cars. I've attended dozens of road, rally and race school events (and organised and run a few myself). I've designed, developed and delivered driver training, vehicle dynamics training and worked on the product development of a number of vehicles. I'm now in a management position for a third party in the motor industry, which provides me with a lot less time on track than in the past, but doesn't diminish the knowledge, contacts and information I have managed to gather.

    I've provided details of this to the site owner in the past, and to be blunt if I were making this up I would no longer be a member, let alone on the staff. I have no intention of sharing any of the proof of that publicly, as the last time I trusted members here even remotely with that my home and family details got doxed (because GT is that :censored: important to some people).

    Which is why I used a whole host of independently verifiable sources from the motorsport industry. Which does make it odd that rather than discuss what they say on the subject you instead target me?



    I'm using the default settings, so if they are the problem its a PD issue.

    As for what I think its doing wrong, I've posted that up on a number of occasions, so I tell you what why don't you do a standing start, full throttle in a FWD car and explain why its right using reality as a benchmark.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  4. super_gt

    super_gt

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    If I was paid one dollar each time I read such a post from you because some dispute your credibility I would be a millionaire!
     
  5. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    You can't classify it as a game problem if default settings doesn't agree with your driving style.

    You mentioned earlier about aggressive and non aggressive sim drivers; I would also add experienced and non experienced sim racers.

    The default game settings in GTS are divided into three categories (beginner novice or professional) depending on your experience level you would choose the level accordingly, further tweaking is required for taste. Beyond this point if you are a aggressive or non aggressive driver you will have to make changes in your car settings depending on what car you are driving (RR MR or FF) in order to get the correct feel for your taste.
     
  6. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    It has nothing at all to do with my driving style, but nice attempt at deflection.

    I'm also quite clearly referring to the vehicle settings, not the driver aids!

    How about you do the test and then come back and tell me why GTS is right, rather than attempting to make it my fault.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  7. rono_thomas

    rono_thomas Premium

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    Bottas and Hamilton spring to mind here, one able to switch the tyres on and the other struggles.
     
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  8. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    No it is not a deflection, Im telling you that the problems you are experiencing with default settings must be adjusted to your style. You can't speak for everyone when you think default settings should suit everyone perfectly and if not, you feel theres something wrong with the game.

    Staff Theres nothing wrong with sharing your objective opinions. But it become questionable when one decides to make their objective opinions as a standard fact.

    No, how about you learn to adjust your setting to suit your driving style, then you come back and tell me what you think. After all, you are the one expressing your problem with the FF cars.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  9. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

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    Holy deflection, Batman.

    For the umpteenth time, the issue here is not that a car is not behaving to one's tastes, it's that it's not behaving as it does in reality.

    The bone-stock ND Miata's penchant for oversteer, and the Civic Type R's tire-murdering understeer, are two prime examples.
     
  10. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    It's pure deflection, as it has nothing at all to do with settings or driving style.

    Good job I'm not doing that then isn't it.


    I'm not the only one, not by a long shot, and here's the issue. I'm driving it in the exact same way I do in the real thing, and GTS doesn't drive in the same way.

    On some private land I have access to I did a standing start, full throttle, invalid car with more torque than a Focus ST, on road tyres, in 7c slightly damp conditions. Full throttle and dumped the clutch.

    Guess what, it wasn't a bit like GTS attempt at it.

    So tell me again what settings and driving style I need to adopt in the real world to match what is quite clearly not right in GTS?

    As you have now entered the absurd zone if GT white knighting that sees reality as wrong in order to defend GT.
     
  11. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    I never told you what setting in the real world to use, where did you get that from?

    It does't matter.
    You can say you have realistically driven every car in the game, but if you don't learn how to adjust the GTS settings to fit your style, the simulated car is not going to behave in the way you expect.
     
  12. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    I'm talking about cars in the game I have driven in reality, not that any FWD car I have ever driven on track has behaved in the way they do in GTS from a hard launch or while understeering. Not that I need to in order to know what they should be doing, real world physics does that for us, that's why we use it as a benchmark, not GTS as you have now started to.

    Nor did I say that you had said "what setting in the real world to use", i asked you point blank to tell me what ones to use, as you have clearly gotten to the point in which GTS trumps reality, as quite frankly this has gotten so far from any rational conversation that sarcasm is the only remaining option.

    Now how about you run the test and tell us all exactly why GTS is right?
     
  13. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    You did say that you wanted me to tell you again.
    which I never told you anything like that in the first place.

    No I haven't clearly gotten there to where you saying because I never talked about that.

    What I'm telling you is "point blank" that you need to adjust your settings.
     
  14. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Sarcasm, clearly went over your head.


    Time to humour you , which settings and how are going to make it behave correctly, I would also like you to explain why they will make such a difference.
     
  15. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

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    Oh look, more dodging.

    Since you seem to know the "correct" settings, you should be able to share them.*

    * - I fully expect this to be ignored/dodged again.
     
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  16. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    Okay, but first tell me what defaults you are using; game settings and setting for the FF car you are using.
    No Im not trying to leave you in the dark, but if one is in the business of just poking holes and not really wanting help, don't expect any solutions from me.
     
  17. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Zero 'false driver aids', stock set-up on the car, stability off, TC 0 or 1 (no difference on these at all) and ABS off or mild (no difference on these nor should it make one from a standing start).

    No one is simply poking holes, and you need to drop these false accusations.

    Pointing out where titles differ from reality, using supporting evidence and sources is not 'simply poking holes', and analysis of physics engines and tyre models for a whole range of titles has a long history here at GT Planet.

    Unfortunately so does this absurd defensiveness, however it's frequency is significantly higher for one particular series.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  18. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    This message is for all in including Scaff

    When you are using a ff car in GTS.

    Stability system: should be set to off this would eliminate some of the understeer in corners or chicanes

    Traction control: set to zero may give you that excessive sliding when you dump the clutch or floor the accelerator at start however it will help eliminate that understeer at corner exits. Set to anything above zero may will give you a level of undesired power understeer because it is a front wheel pull. I recommend zero.

    Brake balance: since this is a front wheel pull, balance the brakes towards the rear to eliminate the front tires from overheating losing exit grip and understeering.

    Other factors to consider for realism but not limited:

    level of fuel in the tank: full makes the car feel heavy
    use counter steering assistance: this will not slow you much but gives you a better sense of control
    use abs: for difficulty honing in on sense of speed
    adjust cockpit view: personal preference but the closer I set this makes the feel to behave more realistic, if i have it set too far back it feels like a boat.


    Scaff remember this: The car in the game doesn't do anything by itself you are in control of it. if you are not able to make adjustments and get better control of the simulated car, the physics or tyre model will not seem exactly right to you

    Don't you tell me to stop doing something that I am not doing. As a said before, if you are only here to bring this game down don't expect me to help you with your difficulties with it at the same time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2017
  19. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Well that was exactly zero use and not even remotely helpful in regard to the example you said was occurring because I can't get settings right.

    Now explain to me exactly why something I can do in reality doesn't come close to being recreated in GTS (well aside from the car moves forward, but that's it)!

    A full throttle launch, leaving the throttle pinned and dumping the clutch, with a flat shift into second is a doddle in a moderate power FWD car in reality. With or without TC and SC engaged. No bogging down, no excessive wheel spin, no absurd bouncing off the rev limiter, etc.

    You have utterly failed to explain why I can't do the same in GTS, and its got nothing to do with settings or driving style.

    So please do explain exactly why this difference exists, as either GTS is wrong or reality is wrong? Which is it?

    You will when requested by the staff, cease posting any content.

    It's in the AUP you agreed to when you joined.

    As such if you wish to keep making these claims of 'only being here to bring the game down' the staff are going to need some rather robust evidence.
     
  20. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    No, No,No Scaff, it is you who failed to get your settings right. The way you view reality and translate it to a simulator is only your perception.
    The reality is not incorrect, the simulator is not incorrect but you are incorrect when you say that it is wrong.
     
  21. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Which settings have I failed to get right? I have asked and you haven't highlighted anything I haven't already tried.

    If I'm doing the same in both and the results are different then one of them is wrong.

    This is not a hypothetical, I have honestly lost count of the number of FWD cars I've 'figured' over the years. I almost certainly ran 0-60 tests for around 80% of the hot hatch models sold on the UK market between '97 and '02. With plenty more after that.

    I know exactly how this should work in reality, I've done it countless times.

    Its not even a very difficult test, yet oddly you have refused to give it a go and explain why a full throttle hard launch works how it does in GTS and why its accurate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  22. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

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    :lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Comedy gold right here! You really are making yourself look very silly.

    Post a video of how your settings make the car behave in game as it does in reality.
     
  23. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    really? how is giving out helpful information making myself look silly?
     
  24. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

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    You are giving out factually incorrect information and labelling those who disagree with you as incorrect. That's what is making you look silly. Once again, post of video with your settings that prove a FWD car in game behaves in the same way as it does in real life. As Scaff has pointed out, he has done this hundreds of times in reality and the game does not behave as he, someone with vast experience, expects. So show that he is incorrect and that using your settings we can get a FWD car to behave in game as it does in reality. It's extremely simple to do. Should take you no more than 5 mins tops.
     
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  25. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

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    Alright, this has gone so far into bizarro world it needs to be reigned in.

    In this very thread, you've stated that nobody can judge a simulator's accuracy unless they've also built one. Yet here you are, saying that GT Sport's physics engine is "not incorrect".

    Now, I don't expect someone that posts 10/10 perfect reviews of a game the day it releases to be the most objective person, but it needs to be said (again): no game's physics engine is perfect. It can't be — the real world is a hugely, infinitely complicated place. Even tire manufacturers don't understand absolutely everything about tire physics. So why would you think the engine behind a mass-produced $60 game would be the last word on physics? And don't say it has anything to do with the title of this thread.

    You're so busy defending a game you own that you're seeing any criticism of it as "trying to bring it down". Plenty of us play a lot of these games, and we find faults with each one's physics engine. That doesn't stop us from enjoying them.
     
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  26. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    If the private road I have access to wasn't 20 miles away and it wasn't hammering down with rain I would go and film a 300 ftlb FWD car doing a hard launch right now just to put a nail in this nonsense.

    However I do have tomorrow off and the weather report looks OK, so it will have to wait until then.
     
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  27. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    You are taking my statement "not incorrect" out of context. I'm not implying that everything is perfect but it is not broken. But when i give a perfect 10/10 score its not just judged on physics alone. I also gave Forza 6 And Project Cars 2 perfect scores also. The way I feel about a game overall score doesn't have everything to do with this topic specifically.






    PzR Slim, I never agreed to give you a video
     
  28. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

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    How's that video coming along?
     
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  29. ghostrider135

    ghostrider135

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    :dunce: Not implying that everything is perfect, But you then proceed to go and give a wonky game a perfect score.....
    [​IMG]
     
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  30. CopperySinger

    CopperySinger

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    Which game are you referring to as "wonky" PC Forza or GT?

    for what it does, it gets a perfect 10 in my books.

    if some of these reviews say since forza has many more cars it equals more bang for the buck. that is simply not true in my books

    if some reviews say since Pcars has more detailed tuning and gui data information it equals a better sim. thats also not true in my books.


    can I have another chance to redo my review on GTS?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017