Drift and Tire compound theory - Drift faster than grip

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Now one thing that ive been trying to do in GT3 recently is setting up some cars so they mimic the ones in Initial D.

To make the rest of this post make sense I'll write out my idea of drifting faster than grip in GT3.

1. When a car gets sideways it will keep sliding until it hits the wall which follows one of newton's laws which states that if your car is going in one direction, without any outside forces, your car will keep going in that direction

2. When it is sliding either left or right, the left or right side of the car will expeience more weight as it is decelerationg in that direction

3. So when you accelerate the outside wheel (the one on the outside of the turn) will experience more traction than the inside wheel (btw i'm talking about FR and MR ... I'm horrible at drifting AWD) thus causing the car to head/spin/tailslide in the direction of the turn!!!

4. The only thing keeping your car from hitting the wall are your rear tyres pushing the car towards the centre of the turn (correction by Trueno86 - towards the direction of where the rear tyres are pointing)

5. The amount of push therefore depends on the Mass of the car (the lighter the car the less keinetic energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity squared :D ) which means lighter cars are easier to push towards the centre of the turn. The other factor is tyre traction (a soft or hard tyre) where a softer tyre gives more centripetal acceleration (acceceration towards the centre of the turn which prevents you from hitting the outside of the turn)

6. So the higher the angle of drift, the more friction that will be expereinced by the tyres, the more sideways deceleration, the more traction on one of your back wheels than the other, the more pronounced the effect of the gas peddal on the spin of the car (thus more spin not neccessarily faster drift)

Which brings me to the point that if the car is tuned correctly for its tyre compound combined with driver skill and knowledge of the driver knowing the best drift angle and knowing how to get into that angle, i believe drift will beat grip BY FAR in GT3 ... at the hairpin turns that is or close to hairpin turns no matter the tyre compound and drift should beat grip by some degree at all the sharper than 90 degree turns

Then this occured to me ... Ryousuke Takahashi must have been using softer tyres than Takumi Fugiwhatever when racing him for the first time down Akina!!! This is because R.T was able to keep up with Takumi all the way down the mountain even though the Mazda Rx-7 driven by R.T was some 300 to 400 kilos heavier than Takumi's Toyota AE86 Trueno.

Although this theory stuff might actually work ... i wouldnt have time to tune my cars to a degree where i can apply all this (stupid HSC .. oh btw i live in australia n HSC is the year 12 final yr before Uni/College).

Sorry for being so long winded and if i repeated anyone's work who has already covered this theory.
 
Just to stop this where it is at.. Grip is faster then drift in about 99% of cases....If Drift was faster then grip in gt3 then why don't the AI use it? Explain that ,your argument is pointless. Sorry to say ,but this has been discussed many times..... Just search "Drift fast then grip" theres a good thread where all of this is explain including physics and all ,but if you want to keep on with your thoery go ahead be preapred to get flamed.......

EDIT: BTW even if your thoery only concerns hairpibs I still think grip will beat drift...
Yo Bengee looks like its time to start up the Drift vs Grip race again..
 
Originally posted by <Kagoi>
Now one thing that ive been trying to do in GT3 recently is setting up some cars so they mimic the ones in Initial D.

To make the rest of this post make sense I'll write out my idea of drifting faster than grip in GT3.

1. When a car gets sideways it will keep sliding until it hits the wall which follows one of newton's laws which states that if your car is going in one direction, without any outside forces, your car will keep going in that direction

2. When it is sliding either left or right, the left or right side of the car will expeience more weight as it is decelerationg in that direction

3. So when you accelerate the outside wheel (the one on the outside of the turn) will experience more traction than the inside wheel (btw i'm talking about FR and MR ... I'm horrible at drifting AWD) thus causing the car to head/spin/tailslide in the direction of the turn!!!

4. The only thing keeping your car from hitting the wall are your rear tyres pushing the car towards the centre of the turn

5. The amount of push therefore depends on the Mass of the car (the lighter the car the less keinetic energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity squared :D ) which means lighter cars are easier to push towards the centre of the turn. The other factor is tyre traction (a soft or hard tyre) where a softer tyre gives more centripetal acceleration (acceceration towards the centre of the turn which prevents you from hitting the outside of the turn)

6. So the higher the angle of drift, the more friction that will be expereinced by the tyres, the more sideways deceleration, the more traction on one of your back wheels than the other, the more pronounced the effect of the gas peddal on the spin of the car

Which brings me to the point that if the car is tuned correctly for its tyre compound combined with driver skill and knowledge of the driver knowing the best drift angle and knowing how to get into that angle, i believe drift will beat grip BY FAR in GT3 ... at the hairpin turns that is or close to hairpin turns no matter the tyre compound and drift should beat grip by some degree at all the sharper than 90 degree turns

Then this occured to me ... Ryousuke Takahashi must have been using softer tyres than Takumi Fugiwhatever when racing him for the first time down Akina!!! This is because R.T was able to keep up with Takumi all the way down the mountain even though the Mazda Rx-7 driven by R.T was some 300 to 400 kilos heavier than Takumi's Toyota AE86 Trueno.

Although this theory stuff might actually work ... i wouldnt have time to tune my cars to a degree where i can apply all this (stupid HSC .. oh btw i live in australia n HSC is the year 12 final yr before Uni/College).

Sorry for being so long winded and if i repeated anyone's work who has already covered this theory.
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Sorry some of your theories aren’t exactly right, I had similar thoughts at one point but dismissed them after some reflection. I will try to explain why drifting at high angles is almost never faster then grip. I will go in the order you presented your theory.

1. When a car is sliding it’s tires still have friction it’s just pointing in the opposite direction of motion so the car it might continue into a wall or not depending on how fast you are going and how close the wall is.

2. Yes this is true, but the increased weight on the outside tires will be equal to the decreased weight on the inside tires.

3. Doesn’t really matter

4. What is keeping you from hitting the wall is the sliding or dynamic friction of all the tires (which is always less then static friction i.e grip). The rear tires, when throttle is applied will provide an added force in the direction the car is pointed, not the center of the turn (unless the car is pointed that way).

5. Kinetic energy is not all that important here, what you need too look at is (force = mass * acceleration) this is much more important when trying to understand how a car moves, turns or drifts. And it’s very simple since all you have to deal with is the friction force on the tires, and the mass of the car and this will give you acceleration. Getting into more detail you need to take into account moments of inertia for the rotation of the car.

6. This is just wrong; sliding friction is almost always less then static friction, so the moment you start sliding some weight will shift back to the inside tires. Also since the sliding friction of the tires is less the static friction the total force acting on the car will be less, giving less acceleration and a wider turning radius



Driving at the edge of the friction limit is considered “drifting” since the car will drift a little but a very little amount, to the point that it is not noticeable. Look up four-wheel drifting; if you can sort through all the crap there is good information out there. This type of drift is fast, but to most people its just grip, and it is. It’s simply just maxing out the total static friction of the tires with out moving into dynamic friction.

Drifting at higher angles can be faster then griping but only on very sharp turns but this is only because rotating the car faster, and getting it pointed in the direction you want to go becomes more important then carrying speed out of the corner.
 
part of my point is that unless you tune your car right, drift wont be faster since after half a second of acceleration you need to release the gas again otherwise your car will start to spin and during that time of letting off the gas will slow you down but if your car wasn't as drifty/spinny (through tuning) then the gas can be held for much longer resulting in a faster time.

I think this would be best tested in SS11 where there are plenty of hairpin turns. Also the reason why AI dont drift is because they are almost always bunched up together bumping eachother constantly in many early races and just a small bump can cause a spin. Another reason is tyre wear problems as drift absolutely kills them no matter how you do it, and in circuit races where there are many laps, it's often not fesable to waste your tyres.

To Trueno86 - I never said higher angles = faster drift .. i said that high angles will cause a stronger spinning force which isnt always wanted as everyone knows too much = spinout
 
....Then this occured to me ... Ryousuke Takahashi must have been using softer tyres than Takumi Fugiwhatever when racing him for the first time down Akina!!! This is because R.T was able to keep up with Takumi all the way down the mountain even though the Mazda Rx-7 driven by R.T was some 300 to 400 kilos heavier than Takumi's Toyota AE86 Trueno.
Click to expand...


if ryouske had softer tires then he would of beaten takumi fujiwara, the reason ryouske lost is that he copied his tech. and by that when it came to the six deadly harpinturns takumi i think used his gutter tech or the second form of it, if he hadn't use that technique takumi would of lost , so the harpin turns decide the tires stamina
 
Originally posted by <Kagoi>
part of my point is that unless you tune your car right, drift wont be faster since after half a second of acceleration you need to release the gas again otherwise your car will start to spin and during that time of letting off the gas will slow you down but if your car wasn't as drifty/spinny (through tuning) then the gas can be held for much longer resulting in a faster time.

I think this would be best tested in SS11 where there are plenty of hairpin turns. Also the reason why AI dont drift is because they are almost always bunched up together bumping eachother constantly in many early races and just a small bump can cause a spin. Another reason is tyre wear problems as drift absolutely kills them no matter how you do it, and in circuit races where there are many laps, it's often not fesable to waste your tyres.

To Trueno86 - I never said higher angles = faster drift .. i said that high angles will cause a stronger spinning force which isnt always wanted as everyone knows too much = spinout
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and about that tuning part... i just have the basic things on my fc and didn't touch my settings and it sill drifts fine, also my 180sx is tuned the same way ill give a video



my first time drifting a FR
 
Originally posted by <Kagoi>


To Trueno86 - I never said higher angles = faster drift .. i said that high angles will cause a stronger spinning force which isnt always wanted as everyone knows too much = spinout
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about that, higher angles= no countersteer and no counter steer means a 4wd drift ( i think) its the way u approach the turn and the best line u take determines the success of the drift
 
Originally posted by <Kagoi>


To Trueno86 - I never said higher angles = faster drift .. i said that high angles will cause a stronger spinning force which isnt always wanted as everyone knows too much = spinout
Click to expand...

Ah, I see, your physics for the rest still don't really work. If you would like, I’m a 2nd year mechanical engineering student, so I understand forces and acceleration very well.

Anyways please read my post again, I know it’s not 100% clear but try to understand that the car goes through when it is drifting and you will realize that drifting at any angle, where the tires are sliding, in almost any condition will be slower the grip. If there is anything you disagree with in my post or anything you would like to know about the physics of drifting please tell me and I will try to explain it at a later date.

Oh and welcome to GTP, I think this was your first thread right?
 
ooh, I wanna get in on this!

First off: Problem number one.
You keep talking about how the tires have all this traction available. The whole point of drifting if losing traction, so it doesn't matter if you have more traction available....you're sliding, which means that you're not using the traction for acceleration.

Now....more on traction. First off, friction = traction, right? Well, dynamic friction (moving) always has a lower coefficient of friction than static friction (standing still). Basically, it means that it takes a lot of energy to overcome static friction and get something to start moving, but it's easy to overcome dynamic friction and keep it going. So.....with drifting, the contact patch (tires against road) has dynamic friction, while it's static with grip driving. See how that works? So...grip driving gives you more friction, which is traction.

Now....Exit Speed. Notice how you're slowing down through the ENTIRE turn when you drift? You don't speed up till you straighten out. Go try it on any corner. While you're sideways, you will not be speeding up. So, if you're sideways through the while corner like a good drifter, you're slowing down the whole time. With grip driving, you slow down through the first half of the turn, then accelerate for the rest of it. This all means....you have a higher exit speed with gripping. And.......exit speed is the important part, not entry speed.

Now...for a little example: let's move away from the world of anime, and into real life, shall we? Now....Le Mans and F1 are considered some of the fastest stuff there is in the world. They don't drift. They go as fast as possible.

I'll throw in more stuff if I think up any more ;)
 
in the exiting speed
grip= more acceleration u don't lose any tire traction
drift=u have to let go of the gas a tiny bit to regain the control of the car and u lose u the tires traction, right?
 
Originally posted by nightkids4ever
in the exiting speed
grip= more acceleration u don't lose any tire traction
drift=u have to let go of the gas a tiny bit to regain the control of the car and u lose u the tires traction, right?
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Grip: yes, basically. You also have more time under accel.

Drift: You don't really need to let off the gas. If you do it right, you can just not let the end swing out past the point where it's in line with your course. But.....you don't actually start accelerating till you get to this point, which is way further out than with grip. Also, you're going slower at the point where you start accel.
 
well in gt3 wise, i raced my r33 with the amuetur class and they caught up to me like nothing , well in some turns i kinda of beat them and etc
 
Originally posted by <Kagoi>


This is because R.T was able to keep up with Takumi all the way down the mountain even though the Mazda Rx-7 driven by R.T was some 300 to 400 kilos heavier than Takumi's Toyota AE86 Trueno.
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i thought the rotory engines are compact and lighter than normal cars and welcome to the drift forums of gtp :D
 
haha ... this is funny

its very fun to prove that drift is faster than grip ... like reaching the impossible. by doing so, u get good practice and ur drifting skills improve tremendously.

Go on any course ... drift every corner ( i dont mean breaking traction for a second or two ) ... in singles race normal or hard.

Have Fun!!!
 
I think there's a misconception about speed. I explain: "going faster through a corner". There's a difference between achieve more speed (than grip) in a corner, and exit faster (than grip) from the corner.

I think that when you explain a method of cornering with grip or drift, don't say: "this is faster", just say like this: "you're going quiker" or "you can exit at more speed".

My theory of drifting is about exit speed, in certain corners I can exit faster, but I can't go faster inside the corner, and there're other type of corners (the ones you must brake inside) that entering speed is little higher if I drift.
 
I just have to drop some words here.

First of all - grip is faster than drift ON TARMAC or other paved surfaces. Otherwise the WRC folks wouldn't bother with it...Why are they going faster with drifting? Because on gravel and dirt surface the coefficient of friction with 0% tire slip is about the same or less than with spinning wheels and some corners and hairpins just simply can't be taken by only grip-driving them, since their cars' steering radius is simply too large.


Originally posted by Purple Platypus
You keep talking about how the tires have all this traction available. The whole point of drifting if losing traction, so it doesn't matter if you have more traction available....you're sliding, which means that you're not using the traction for acceleration.
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This is just half of the truth. Wheels can be spinning from a percentage of 0% to 100%, in the meaning that 0% lets you calculate the distance you drove by
2*pi*r*n,
r being the radius of the wheels and n being the number of revoluztions the wheels were doing. with increasing slip percentage this distance is decreased as follows:
l = (1 - p/100)*2*pi*r*n
r and n as above, l being the distance travelled and p being the percentage of wheel spin encountered.

However - the grip coefficient at first increases with wheel spin - up to a value of about 30% wheel spin, where there is the maximum, depending on the condition of the surface (wet, dry, dirt on track etc.) and lateral G's pulled.

So what has been said before, that with little, almost unnoticable spin your corner speed will increase is absolutely correct. And it is how the F1 is driving.

Originally posted by Purple Platypus
Now....more on traction. First off, friction = traction, right? Well, dynamic friction (moving) always has a lower coefficient of friction than static friction (standing still). Basically, it means that it takes a lot of energy to overcome static friction and get something to start moving, but it's easy to overcome dynamic friction and keep it going. So.....with drifting, the contact patch (tires against road) has dynamic friction, while it's static with grip driving. See how that works? So...grip driving gives you more friction, which is traction.
Click to expand...
See the above statement about friction coefficient depending on the continuously changing wheel spin percentage.

Originally posted by Purple Platypus
Now....Exit Speed. Notice how you're slowing down through the ENTIRE turn when you drift? You don't speed up till you straighten out. Go try it on any corner. While you're sideways, you will not be speeding up. So, if you're sideways through the while corner like a good drifter, you're slowing down the whole time. With grip driving, you slow down through the first half of the turn, then accelerate for the rest of it. This all means....you have a higher exit speed with gripping. And.......exit speed is the important part, not entry speed.
Click to expand...
You are right, that exit speed is what counts. However, when using a drift, as formerly stated, you are able to kick the car into the position where you can just start your longitudinal accelaration much earlier than when grip driving that same corner. This will work out increasingly with decreasing cornering radii - thus justifying the use of drifts in hairpins. The reason for this is not as simple, but try for yourself:
Consider a boat on river (flowing current included) and that same boat on a lake (no flowing current). Let the boats now travel with a speed of, let's say, 10 kph (not considering current, that is!). The boat on the river will be slower, when travelling against the current, but faster with the current, with the exact same difference of speed to the boat on the lake. Now considering a distance of 10 km, 5 km in each direction - which boat will first at the finish line? Usually you might think, they both arrive at the same time - but they don't - the boat on the lake will be the first all the time. On the slow part of the route, the river-riding boat will lose more time than it will be able to make up when travelling downstream, since it is fast there and therefore the entire amount of time to make up for the slow travel before is reduced! And that's the point in drifting - you lose more speed in the beginning compared to grip driving, but exit with higher speed which is taken onto the next part of the track without corners (thus making you slower when just looking at the corner itself from entrance to exit). On race tracks these parts from one corner to the next are comparably short, so the higher exit speed will not make the cut, since it takes you more time to get through the corner and you higher exit speed doesn't make up for it on the short distance to the next corner. On rallye tracks the distance between corners is rather long, and the corners themselves are sometimes quite tight, so drfiting is paying off now and then. Of course - rallye drivers don't always drift...
Originally posted by Purple Platypus
Now...for a little example: let's move away from the world of anime, and into real life, shall we? Now....Le Mans and F1 are considered some of the fastest stuff there is in the world. They don't drift. They go as fast as possible.
Click to expand...
About the F1 I already stated what I think is one of the reasons for them not to drift. In Le Mans, where cars are to run 24h in a row, every fragment of racing behaviour that makes the car less durable (in terms of one stint as well as over the entire race) is to be kept out of the driving style. Therefore:
* no rumble strips are touched (suspension, body and tires are heavily "suffering" under the use of curb driving)
* no unnecessary wheel spin (e.g. drifting) is used (otherwise wheels are wearing off much faster)

In F1, Champ/Indy car, the vehicles usually have a very narrow bandwith to drive the car in, considering the possible matching of lateral and longitudinal accelarations. They are difficult to keep in a steady drift type of move. Along with the point I stated about the Le Mans Series and the other reason mentioned above when talking about tire slip percentage it is unacceptable to drift with F1 cars and the like.

After all, I do not doubt the fun that lies within drifting, be it in GT3-like games or in real life. But faster it is almost never. How this proves to be true in the GTx-sequels I am not the person to decide. Most fast drivers prefer to slide only a bit, only to a certain extend and only in some corners of some tracks. Without sliding they feel and see to be slower than with grip driving. But this does not really stand against the things I wrote here.

Although grown out of a rather harsh argument at racing line, this following link will give some star drivers' experiences about this matter concerning reality in GT3
http://www.racing-line.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2330
 
Originally posted by nightkids4ever
no counter steer means a 4wd drift ( i think) its the way u approach the turn and the best line u take determines the success of the drift
Click to expand...

to start... it's not a four-wheel drive (4WD drift), it's a 4 WHEEL drift... you've been here too long to miss that :banghead:

anyway, once again...

***can drift be faster than grip???***

YES... why i say yes? because it depends on who's driving against who... right? :lol:
 
Before I get into this here is a huge thread from awhile back about drift faster then grip read it.. ITs 421 post but they are educational post.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=645788

That thread covers everything from drifting being faster in the hairpins ,4 wheel drifts , and the physics of drifting and grip.
I reconmend this thread to everyone..:)
BTW: I'm not saying drifting is faster....
 
i remember when that thread was still alive...........ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the old days anyways plz enjoy the 411
 
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