Drivetrain Swaps: Yay or Nay?

[imported_Tiddy]

The civic can be humbled by a well tuned MX5 superlight, just put a rotary in it and you have a giant killer.

For B class?

 

[imported_JJ72]

yeah

 

[buttsneeze]

RWD is a BETTER drivetrain than 4WD if you can drive it, The issue I had in FM3 was that 4WD was so superior and took no skill.

In FM4 a RWD car takes skill to drive and is better, An unskilled driver cannot make a RWD sing like a skilled one can and to me that is fair as it separates the skilled from the unskilled.

Another opinion I have though is that FWD is the superior drivetrain in B class and below, A good example of this is the '97 Civic or the Renault Clio. The civic dominates online racing and every time I've seen a clio it too has won the race.

FWD is dominant in slower classes, but it makes sense, since it's so easy to drive at the absolute limit. RWD can be just as fast; I have a D class Starion and a D class Miata and they easily keep up with the best Civics.

Also RWD muscle cars in the lower classes mop the floor on speed-oriented tracks.

 

[imported_Tiddy]

FWD is dominant in slower classes, but it makes sense, since it's so easy to drive at the absolute limit. RWD can be just as fast; I have a D class Starion and a D class Miata and they easily keep up with the best Civics.

Also RWD muscle cars in the lower classes mop the floor on speed-oriented tracks.

Yeah, I built a 94 VTi Civic (I like civics but I don't want to use scoreboard cars, so I picked the 94 thinking it would be an average/good B class car but not scoreboard worthy like the '97 and 07) I did one race in it and it's much easier to drive than my S2000 and also a couple of tenths faster.

The friends I race with where debating as to it's legality as a non-scoreboard car, I personally don't think it's all that godly, it's just more consistent than my other cars.

I'll have to give that MX-5 superlight a go to see what it's like.

 

[Wolfe]

As for the advantages RWD has in real life, that is what the PI system is supposed to balance, anyways. The same argument has been made in favor of AWD when FM3 was around, but at the end of the day, if there's a notable difference between two builds of the same car, both at the same PI just with different drivetrain swaps, similar weight and so on, then something isn't right.

I didn't mean a RWD car should be granted extra performance at the same PI based on its advantages. What I intended is more along the lines of what Tiddy said:

RWD is a BETTER drivetrain than 4WD if you can drive it, The issue I had in FM3 was that 4WD was so superior and took no skill.

In FM4 a RWD car takes skill to drive and is better, An unskilled driver cannot make a RWD sing like a skilled one can and to me that is fair as it separates the skilled from the unskilled.

Regardless of all the balancing you can throw at a pair of cars, at the end of the day AWD and FWD will exhibit power- and lift-off understeer, a front-biased weight distribution (usually), and minimal conservation of momentum in an oversteer situation. A RWD car can't, won't (usually), and would fare better, respectively.

With the gulf separating the laptimes of a novice in a RWD car and an expert in the same, it's impossible to expect both drivers to benefit equally from class balancing. Either RWD gets a big cut on PI and novices can be competitive while experts trounce the field, or RWD gets a boosted PI and experts are competitive while novices avoid RWD like the plague.

Forza 3 resembled the latter example. At the very least, I doubt we've swung over to the former example.

Another opinion I have though is that FWD is the superior drivetrain in B class and below, A good example of this is the '97 Civic or the Renault Clio. The civic dominates online racing and every time I've seen a clio it too has won the race.

I'm not sure FWD dominates the lower levels. Actually, I was very pleased to discover you didn't need 300+ horsepower to kick the tail out on a RWD car, like you did in FM3. The lightweight compacts certainly add to the point-and-shoot value of FWD, but the low-class RWD cars have the same handling tools at their disposal as their higher-powered counterparts.

 

[Luminis]

why dont we be scientific and just test it out?

I just performed a much simpler test than yours, but one that will illustrate my point perfectly.

Two '97 Civic Type R:
1.: Stock. PI: C390. 1090kg, five speed transmission.
2.: RWD swapped, race weight reduction. PI: C379. 1068kg, six speed transmission.

So, I can get the RWD drivetrain, lose 23kg, get an additional gear and can free up 11 PI points - at the cost of just 6800Cr. The only way that I can see this as being balanced is if FWD would be the vastly superior drivetrain. And for a C-Class car, I highly doubt that.

Now, for a more in-depth test, I've added added a street fuel pump to get the RWD Civic to C390. Keep in mind that the following lap times will be done with the stock suspension, which should be set up for a front wheel driven car.

My test track for this is Tsukuba's short circuit. It's relatively easy to drive and short enough to get a decent amount of laps in.

• Fastest lap for the FWD Civic after ten laps: 0.53:031
• Fastest lap for the RWD Civic after ten laps: 0.51:926
  

And I can guarantee you, the gap would've been wider had I used these 11 PI points to install adjustable suspension, anti roll barrs, diffential and brakes... Oh, and I might add that I was running 0.52.5xx and less after my first flying lap, so even if you don't really drive the car at the limit, it is clearly faster. 0.5 seconds around Tsukuba short is a pretty big difference right there, but running more than a second faster after a few laps to get used to the car, that's a huge difference.

Granted, the '97 Type R seems like one of the most extreme examples in that regard, but I suppose my point is pretty clear. I still love my RWD Civic, though

 

[Wolfe]

I did my own test with the heaviest FWD I had in my garage, the '09 Focus RS, to try a different sort of car from your Hondas. My test track was Tsukuba, to follow Luminis' example, but I used the full layout.

FWD (B468):
Stock
Lap: 1:06.293
I just did several laps until I got a time that was reasonably clean of errors. I'm not sure the game is modelling the trick differential; late apexing gave me the best corner exit speeds.

RWD Tuned (B468):
Sport Flywheel
Sport Brakes
Race Suspension, Anti-Roll Bars, Chassis
Street Weight Reduction
Sport Clutch, Transmission, Differential
Race Driveline
Street Tires, width maximized
5Zigen wheels
Lap: 1:06.004
Beating the stock ghost wasn't as easy as I expected. It's pretty clear the two layouts trade traction advantages at different parts of corners, and a change of technique can gain or lose quite a bit. The game clearly demonstrates RWD's advantage of being able to accelerate through turns, especially on Tsukuba's last corner; on a track with fewer opportunities to exploit this, FWD may come out ahead. I ran about 10 laps this time.

RWD (B468):
Race Weight Reduction
Lap: 1:05.220
The extra 500 (!) pound loss awarded by the race weight reduction really made a difference. Even with stock tires and no suspension upgrades, this was clearly the fastest version of the car. For the sake of our test, I gave this one my best shot and kept running laps until I was satisfied.

----------
I may run another car/track combo later for more data, but based on what I found so far, the dramatic effect of weight reduction seems to be the main factor in our performance discrepancy. As long as power/weight ratios remain comparable, even extra handling upgrades don't account for terribly much.

 

[imported_Tiddy]

I'll say this now (with all the comparisons going on), You'll find anything if you look hard enough for it.

 

[imported_JJ72]

I don't think you should be changing transmission and tire size for these comparisons, since transmission itself give a lot a time for very little PI. if you put it into power parts of flywheel the gain in performance will be smaller.

 

[tribolik]

Yay for 4WD/FWD to RWD conversions but nay to 4WD swaps in Ferrari's and the like.

Same here... most race cars are RWD so its nice to be able to swap from 4WD or FWD to RWD... but it shouldnt be allowed to swap FWD or RWD to 4WD

 

[Luminis]

I don't think you should be changing transmission and tire size for these comparisons, since transmission itself give a lot a time for very little PI. if you put it into power parts of flywheel the gain in performance will be smaller.

The problem with transmissions or other adjustable parts is that it's going to make your tuning skills a factor. Which shouldn't be one.

I think reducing the weight to get close to the stock weight should be the number one priority, followed by something simple such as pure power upgrades, that ideally don't alter thinks like the redline.

I'm sticking to Tsukuba for now, and here is another test:
FWD '11 Nissan Micra, PI 121, 970kg, 59kW, 110Nm.
Best lap: 0.58:727. Did five flying laps.

RWD '11 Nissan Micra, PI 120, 971kg, 61kW, 114Nm (added race weight reduction, racing drive shaft, street exhaust, sport flywheel). Closest I got to the PI and initial weight without adding something that alters the characteristics too much.
Best lap: 0.57.859. Did one flying lap and called it a day.

Same here... most race cars are RWD so its nice to be able to swap from 4WD or FWD to RWD... but it shouldnt be allowed to swap FWD or RWD to 4WD

And that's mostly because the rules state that the cars have to be RWD. I mean, just look at the different unlimited classes in time attack. AWD cars like the Evo and STi all over the place...

 

[imported_Tiddy]

The problem with transmissions or other adjustable parts is that it's going to make your tuning skills a factor. Which shouldn't be one.

I think reducing the weight to get close to the stock weight should be the number one priority, followed by something simple such as pure power upgrades, that ideally don't alter thinks like the redline.

I'm sticking to Tsukuba for now, and here is another test:
FWD '11 Nissan Micra, PI 121, 970kg, 59kW, 110Nm.
Best lap: 0.58:727. Did five flying laps.

RWD '11 Nissan Micra, PI 120, 971kg, 61kW, 114Nm (added race weight reduction, racing drive shaft, street exhaust, sport flywheel). Closest I got to the PI and initial weight without adding something that alters the characteristics too much.
Best lap: 0.57.859. Did one flying lap and called it a day.


And that's mostly because the rules state that the cars have to be RWD. I mean, just look at the different unlimited classes in time attack. AWD cars like the Evo and STi all over the place...

Have you considered the abundance of parts available for those types of cars and there relative value?

There's a huge number of MX-5's that are racing too, does that mean that RWD is superior due to large numbers of MX-5's flying around tracks?

 

[Luminis]

Have you considered the abundance of parts available for those types of cars and there relative value?

Uhm, we're not talking about grass-roots racing here, we're talking about stuff like the Cyber Evo, or the SierraSierra Evo, or maybe the Tomei Cusco Impreza, specifically built race cars, not some cars built and tuned in a backyard shack that are seing some action during your local trackday. Price is hardly an issue in this case.

There's a huge number of MX-5's that are racing too, does that mean that RWD is superior due to large numbers of MX-5's flying around tracks?

Not quite. It's not only that there are lots of AWD cars, they're also faster than the RWD competition.

 

[Vaxxtx]

The fact that you can...if you want...put an AWD on a Mustang Boss is still pretty neat. Or a RWD Civic. If you dont want to, dont, but the fact you can if you want to it awesome.

 

[hawkeye122]

Sorry to derail the conversation... I am thinking about getting FM4, and im just curious... Could I swap the engines in LMP/ Race cars? I think a Large, quicker engine in an LMP2 car would be kinda neat to toy with. What are the general limits on how far you can swap engines?

Also, what is manufacturer affinity, and how do you gain it?

Thanks!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Sorry to derail the conversation... I am thinking about getting FM4, and im just curious... Could I swap the engines in LMP/ Race cars? I think a Large, quicker engine in an LMP2 car would be kinda neat to toy with. What are the general limits on how far you can swap engines?

Also, what is manufacturer affinity, and how do you gain it?

Thanks!

The engine swaps are different for each car, and are from the same make only. Not even the same company umbrella anymore, either; you can't swap a Z06's LS7 into a Solstice, for example, or a Bentley W12 into an Audi. So, if you could swap an engine into an LMP2, it'd have to be from the same make. Though, come to think of it, I don't think you can really swap engines on any race cars (I only have a few). The CLK-GTR being the closest thing you can do it to, since it looks to be the street-version.

Manufacturer Affinity is the equivalent of XP, for the makes (earned at the same time as your Driver XP). It's very easy to obtain, and after you hit Level 4 (roughly 25,000 to 30,000 XP, can't remember), you get free upgrades in the shop, with exceptions to aftermarket rims, rim size, and drivetrain/engine/aspiration swaps. Run a starter Toyota Aygo in a handful of races, and ta-da, free upgrades for any Toyota you buy in the game.

(EDIT) - On topic, I've done a wee bit of testing, and yeah, RWD swaps are almost always quicker than the FWD originals. That said, depending on the amount of grip you have, and the class you're tuning for, it's still pretty fun to have FWD cars for, say, autocross, since they're much more predictable. I've got an incredibly fun RWD final-gen Celica, though

 

[RoknROLLeR]

510 What a car in F short mid track its BADASS, sr20det for high class

MR2 AW111 most are not tuned properly an slide all over the shop but its a strong car if you have the know, 3sgte for high class

MK5 is a great handling car but a weak engine, 13b for high class

AE86, EPIC Strong engine, Great handling, an a 4agze / 3sgte for high class

 

[imported_JJ72]

The NC Miata tuned to the max gives out 350bhp...from an NA inline 4, that is just mad.

Epic to throw around as well, I drive it just for kicks.

 

[Thebeast2011]

Yay for everything

 

[E28]

The engine swaps are different for each car, and are from the same make only. Not even the same company umbrella anymore, either; you can't swap a Z06's LS7 into a Solstice, for example, or a Bentley W12 into an Audi. So, if you could swap an engine into an LMP2, it'd have to be from the same make. Though, come to think of it, I don't think you can really swap engines on any race cars (I only have a few). The CLK-GTR being the closest thing you can do it to, since it looks to be the street-version.
to aftermarket rims, rim size, and drivetrain/engine/aspiration swaps. Run a starter Toyota Aygo in a handful of races, and ta-da, free upgrades for any Toyota you buy in the game.

Damn. I was hoping you could squeeze an M3 engine into a MINI.

 

[Laughlyn]

I'm really heavy handed with the throttle so i do favor AWD cars and so chance to swap some of teh cars i normally wouldnt choose, i can now.
I also swapped my Diablo SV to AWD to mimic the VT version of the car and its been one of the best cars in game taking me upto level 40 flicking between that and the gallardo. also as i've become more used to the tuning and upgrades i've had a few setups but one i have now (S CLass) is by far my favorite.

As Op says, some folk will hate the idea saying it ruins the game, others like the 'fantasy' cars they can make up with their dream setting. i do wish it was available on more of the higher end cars tho. i'd love to see what i could do with an AWD Jaguar XJ220