DS3 vs. wheel physics in GT6

[Sier_Pinski]

There's been quite some discussion in the body rigidity thread about how DS3/joystick users are treated differently in GT6. Namely, that these types of players are likely given certain driving assists that cannot be turned off. Now some claim that this is done to help cater to 'novice' players, while others accuse these assists of giving DS3 users too much of an advantage, or so I've heard. Users have pointed out, for example, that cars with deteriorated body wear are manageable with the joystick controller while the same types of cars are considered "undriveable" for wheel users. I'd like those talking about it in the body rigidity thread to continue discussion here.

 

[xSNAKEx]

Well yea there is an extra assist for ds3 and thats that the thumbstick stays centred due to the spring in the ds3 thumbstuck. On top of this there is no "force feedback" and no way for the game to change the direction of the ds3 stick. Unlike wheels, where neither of this is the case. Not only do they not have their own centre spring, but on top of this the game is able to throw the wheel left and right.

On top of this yet again, even on 7 steering sensitivity, there is a motion filter to how fast the wheels can be turned. The second you wack the stick fully left does not mean the wheels get turned to their full left position. There is an active steering if you will just due to the nature of how thumbsticks are programmed to be utilzed. If it was try a direct input the cars would be very uncontrollable and ds3 users would be able to change direction in a near instant where as a wheel user needs time to move the wheel.

That said I have not noticed a difference in the physics. I think its all down to what I described above.

 

[OdeFinn]

That said I have not noticed a difference in the physics. I think its all down to what I described above.

Kinda like that, adapting steering to make soft moves on tires can be considered as different physics, not game physics, but steering physics, braking and acceleration physics also.
Not going to re-write everything from OP's mentioned thread, there is also "forced" ASM on DS3, even you want to disable aids, you can't switch that off(post #203 over there).

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Controller users benefit from having a higher possibility of rescuing a car from a spin, nudge or some other hairy situation. Controller users are not able to overturn the front wheels, which at times can be a benefit or a negative.

Wheel users benefit from having much more refined input, force feed back, a sensation of what is happening to the car and grip levels, all of which generally lead to faster lap times. Wheel users are also able to overturn the front wheels, again this can be both a benefit and a hinderance.

Far as I'm aware, wheel and controller users are subject to the exact same physics, and there is no way in this universe that using a joypad is quicker or an overall advantage compared to using a wheel.

 

[stb155]

This i part of a response i wrote on the other thread:

DS3 vs Wheel:
Wheel is much more easy to drive !

Laptimes from the World-GT with wheel:
Bath. 1:53,6
Laguna 1:17,1
Spa 2:03,3
Silv. 1:49,6
24h 7:45 (messed up 1st corner and once in the wall)

GT-World Champ times with DS3 from yesterday to compare
Bathurst 1:53,5
Laguna 1:16,9
Spa 2:05,8
Silverst. 1:51,2
Nür24h 7:43

See the improvement on all tracks with high speed corners ?

They are so much more fun with wheel, Ou Rouge, the last right kink over the crest downhill Bathurst, the left/right uphill after the Omega on NürGP ?
All "high risk" with the DS3 if you push, with wheel you get them right almost every time.

Power out of corners with juuust a little oversteer without actually spinning/drifting ?
Very hard with the DS3/easy with wheel+pedals.

Correcting oversteer ? On the wheel you just relax your grip on the wheel and lift off throttle a bit, car almost corrects itself.
With DS3 you often end up with ovecorrecting, going left/right 5 times or spinning if you just center the stick.

Biggest difference is braking, i cant drive some cars with DS3 because they snap oversteer on braking (FXX, C60).
With wheel this is no problem, you feel the weight shift and countersteer a little, even helps you a lot to get understeering cars to turn in.
The MP4-12C or FXX are a dream to drive with wheel, with DS3 they are understeer in/oversteer out.
(MP4 is ok, but FXX is just a nightmare with DS3)

Only but big disadvantage are fast corrections.
If you get hit back/side corner by AI, get one back wheel in grass under braking, snap power oversteer in a corner over a bump you (or me at least) are done with the wheel.
With DS3 i catch 70% of those because i can go full opposite lock in 0,1sec. with the wheel i have spun befor i start to turn.

 

[H.Keslijinen]

Hi all. I've noticed that the exact phrasing of the condition is "body rigidity has begun to deteriorate". Begun, being the key word here. And the indicator in the pit service page is yellow/orange, not red, I expect the indicator turn red when the condition is really serious. I'm gonna see how long (miles) it takes for the body to be totally shot. I've noticed, my oil change indicator, by the speedo, doesn't light up even though it says, I should change my oil in the pit window.

 

[1241Penguin]

I have a theory that DS3 users have hidden aids. As an example:



Torque steer was present for the wheel and not for the DS3.

By the way, steering input should be negligible. My reasoning is that on GT5 (a game we know for sure has no torque steer), not even a wheel can make the car torque steer at the beginning.

 

[jeepster2982]

As someone who just got a wheel today, in my limited testing I would say pad users benefit from being able to catch mishaps easier. As said above if I lose the tail I can pretty much slam the stick in the opposite direction and save it, with the wheel, I haven't had much success catching the tail. This I suppose is a blessing in disguise as it makes me be a little more cautious while racing.

 

[Not_A_Guest]

As someone who just got a wheel today, in my limited testing I would say pad users benefit from being able to catch mishaps easier. As said above if I lose the tail I can pretty much slam the stick in the opposite direction and save it, with the wheel, I haven't had much success catching the tail. This I suppose is a blessing in disguise as it makes me be a little more cautious while racing.

You can emulate the same thing with a wheel you'd just have to break your arms first
Yeah, when I got a wheel a few months back, I felt exactly the same way.

 

[wrapture]

I didnt read all of everyones posts but with an H-pattern shifter there is engine braking. I find it stupid that I cant use engine braking on a DS3 or with paddle shifters.

 

[KWZX10]

DS3 need a nerf, leagues and time trials are dominated by them, poor wheel players can't play this game anymore because ds3 have too much magic assist!

...Please. Sorry for the tone i'm using but i can't understand this ds3 ''advantage'' idea. We don't even join league or stuff where most of the players use a wheel because it's pointless to even try, lol.

 

[Lambob]

I had a wheel since Colecovision's Turbo, I couln't imagine playing any open track game without a wheel, ever. I just skip analog gamepad driving games altogether. But to those who can play with the pad, well good for them, they have a right to play as anyone else. I'm just one who needs an immersion factor , the stick won't cut it.

 

[s-oso]

I didnt read all of everyones posts but with an H-pattern shifter there is engine braking. I find it stupid that I cant use engine braking on a DS3 or with paddle shifters.

Are you talking about skipping gears when downshifting? If not I don't see anything different, and even with skipping you shouldn't gain anything.


As for ds3 vs. wheel comparison. I think we also need to separate wheels in two groups. 900° and regular wheels.

I've recently had the opportunity to test both and there is huge difference between the two. GT6 offers no advanced wheel setting (a huge problem), so each separate car (or probably group of cars) has settings pre programmed and the settings care not for the wheel you are using. Nearly all of them suit 900° wheels. Problem cars, especially, are much easier to drive with them. Cornering is near same, but keeping car going in a straight is huge problem for Karts, KTM, RB 2010, Huayra and Porsches on regular wheel! It's a simple problem of wheel being poorly calibrated. On pc sims you just adjust speed sensitivity and you are good to go. Lack of this setting here, makes these cars near unplayable.
I know of one exception, tho. RB Junior is more set for regular wheels, and probably ds3 also, so I've had much better lap times with it than with 900° where lower steering radius means you must turn wheel too much to make sharper corners.

 

[RacingManiac]

I played the entire Xmas break with a DS3 since my cockpit setup does not travel back home with me from my apartment...On some tracks with some cars I am as fast with the DS3 as with the wheel, but most of the time I am faster on my cockpit setup. I am a pretty terrible gamepad user to start with, so that probably isn't surprising, my DS3 use even with the 2 sticks are still stuck with the left-right Dpad and O and X buttons. I just can't accurately use the sticks to steer at all or even use the triggers to gas and brake. So powerful RWD is a pain and ABS = 0 is impossible for me....lol...I also just don't get nearly the same enjoyment out of it since I don't feel like driving without dancing around the pedals and sawing at the wheel...

I was very happy back with my wheel yesterday....

 

[montez34]

I have a wheel and I will say there are times I'm better off using a controller. I just tried doing the new S2000 seasonal with my wheel and gave up because I kept spinning so I switched to my DS3 and golded it by two seconds.

 

[KWZX10]

No offence, but maybe this happen because you're not that good with a wheel?
A good (not great, just a decent one) wheel player can smoke an EXPERT ds3 player all the time. Easily.
Just look at gt5 wrs leaderbord here on gtp, you can count ds3 players on one hand. Gt6 will be the same thing.
Like i said, i can't see any REAL advantage.

 

[montez34]

No offence, but maybe this happen because you're not that good with a wheel?
A good (not great, just a decent one) wheel player can smoke an EXPERT ds3 player all the time. Easily.
Just look at gt5 wrs leaderbord here on gtp, you can count ds3 players on one hand. Gt6 will be the same thing.
Like i said, i can't see any REAL advantage.

I'm not a pro with the wheel but I'm above average on DS3, even on a controller people have thought I'm using a wheel because I'm so smooth. I'm faster with the wheel in cars that don't slide around but it's much harder to slide and control it with a wheel, that's why the S2000 event was giving me problems.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I have a theory that DS3 users have hidden aids. As an example:



Torque steer was present for the wheel and not for the DS3.

By the way, steering input should be negligible. My reasoning is that on GT5 (a game we know for sure has no torque steer), not even a wheel can make the car torque steer at the beginning.

Please tell me your not using a RWD Aston Martin to show torque steer.

 

[1241Penguin]

Please tell me your not using a RWD Aston Martin to show torque steer.

Why not?

 

[KWZX10]

I'm not a pro with the wheel but I'm above average on DS3, even on a controller people have thought I'm using a wheel because I'm so smooth. I'm faster with the wheel in cars that don't slide around but it's much harder to slide and control it with a wheel, that's why the S2000 event was giving me problems.

If you're above average on the ds3 makes sense, what i wanted to say with ''not that good with a wheel'' was more like ''more skilled on ds3''.
If you had less skill with the ds3 there was no way to be better with it, so it's not because of some kind of ds3 assist, just your skill with it.
This is my point against the idea of some kind of actual advantage using a ds3, basically.

 

[oqvist]

Are you talking about skipping gears when downshifting? If not I don't see anything different, and even with skipping you shouldn't gain anything.


As for ds3 vs. wheel comparison. I think we also need to separate wheels in two groups. 900° and regular wheels.

I've recently had the opportunity to test both and there is huge difference between the two. GT6 offers no advanced wheel setting (a huge problem), so each separate car (or probably group of cars) has settings pre programmed and the settings care not for the wheel you are using. Nearly all of them suit 900° wheels. Problem cars, especially, are much easier to drive with them. Cornering is near same, but keeping car going in a straight is huge problem for Karts, KTM, RB 2010, Huayra and Porsches on regular wheel! It's a simple problem of wheel being poorly calibrated. On pc sims you just adjust speed sensitivity and you are good to go. Lack of this setting here, makes these cars near unplayable.
I know of one exception, tho. RB Junior is more set for regular wheels, and probably ds3 also, so I've had much better lap times with it than with 900° where lower steering radius means you must turn wheel too much to make sharper corners.

You don´t ever use speed sensitivity with a wheel in any sim with linear steering. But you are maybe referring to all the arcade console racers where you have to use non linear settings to get nearer linear. But you mentioned PC sims and they do all offer linear steering with wheel so all speed sensitivity adjustment destroys it.

I also wished there was more customability. 900 degree is generally good for parking in the streets but it´s not very good for real racing. Drifting is not real racing it´s it´s own sub genre. But it depend if you adjust the lock enough 900 degrees/35 degree steering lock is roughly the same as 415/18 you just can´t make as tight turns. Somebody may correct my divisions here lol.

F1 cars of course never run 900 degrees. None of the F1 driver hardly run 400 degrees even at Monaco. GT cars seldom over 560 I believe. I really wish you could adjust this in GT6 but I suppose the gamepad optimization make it very hard to incorporate full wheel support. On PC it´s going the other way with the sims optimized for racing wheels first and foremost.

 

[s-oso]

Every good racing game on pc has plenty of wheel settings. Even Forza on consoles has them. In GT we are stuck with three vague control options and semi working sensitivity bar. That part of GT is amateurish.

 

[wrapture]

Are you talking about skipping gears when downshifting? If not I don't see anything different, and even with skipping you shouldn't gain anything.

When you down shift with a controller or paddles the car just sits on the revlimiter but with an H-pattern shifter the engine slows the car down, sometimes causing the rear wheels to lock up.

 

[OdeFinn]

@wrapture, that is what I call aid, aid what user cannot control, raises mistake limit higher on DS3. Too sudden downshift on wheel and you will see where you were coming to that corner.

 

[Jae Knight]

as someone who has started one ds3 then got a logitech dfgt, i'd have to say the ds3's only advantage for me is the limite of recklessness i can push cars and still but fast. So at times it feels unfair racing against good ds3 users, but it's just racing with the 900 degrees wheel and pedals feels much better and more smooth. At times it allows you to be precise but some times being precise is hard, resulting in crashing or slower times.
in the end, personally the experience on a wheel is much better then the ds3. and tbh now i find it scary to race fast on controller now.

 

[High On Speed]

I didnt read all of everyones posts but with an H-pattern shifter there is engine braking. I find it stupid that I cant use engine braking on a DS3 or with paddle shifters.

????? WTF.... Yes you can, its called change Wireless Controller in settings to MANUAL TRANSMISSION and DOWN SHIFT. I have T500rs and the Shifter and use DS3, T500, T500 with Shifter and they all downshift/engine brake the same.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Kinda like that, adapting steering to make soft moves on tires can be considered as different physics, not game physics, but steering physics, braking and acceleration physics also.
Not going to re-write everything from OP's mentioned thread, there is also "forced" ASM on DS3, even you want to disable aids, you can't switch that off(post #203 over there).

@wrapture, that is what I call aid, aid what user cannot control, raises mistake limit higher on DS3. Too sudden downshift on wheel and you will see where you were coming to that corner.

I don't think so, with stick, if I shift down too quickly under heavy braking ( over rev ) the rear will often break loose or sometimes becomes unstable. Don't use ABS with the stick, as Amar always said the brake assist also has hidden stability implemented ( applicable to wheel and stick )

There's no hidden assist in stick, other than steering buffer to adapt the analog/Dpad steering ( not an assist IMO ) Try disable all aids, and drive, the car behave the same, the only difference is how the inputs are applied. I have tried GT6 with G27, it's much easier for me than using stick. Countersteering with a wheel is also not that difficult, maybe because I used to drift in Battle Gear like mad

I have a theory that DS3 users have hidden aids. As an example:



Torque steer was present for the wheel and not for the DS3.

By the way, steering input should be negligible. My reasoning is that on GT5 (a game we know for sure has no torque steer), not even a wheel can make the car torque steer at the beginning.

Wheel FFB might also have an effect, try that with disabled FFB. Then use stick, disable left analog stick for steering (under option - put it to N/A ) then assign steering to D pad.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think so, with stick, if I shift down too quickly under heavy braking ( over rev ) the rear will often break loose or sometimes becomes unstable. Don't use ABS with the stick, as Amar always said the brake assist also has hidden stability implemented ( applicable to wheel and stick )

There's no hidden assist in stick, other than steering buffer to adapt the analog/Dpad steering ( not an assist IMO ) Try disable all aids, and drive, the car behave the same, the only difference is how the inputs are applied. I have tried GT6 with G27, it's much easier for me than using stick. Countersteering with a wheel is also not that difficult, maybe because I used to drift in Battle Gear like mad

Wheel FFB might also have an effect, try that with disabled FFB. Then use stick, disable left analog stick for steering (under option - put it to N/A ) then assign steering to D pad.

To anyone that thinks you can't be good/fast with DS3 I offer you @Ridox2JZGTE who drives supercars on comfort tires, with no ABS and 9/x brake balances, something I could not do on my best day with a wheel. How he does it I do not know, but he does.

@doodlemonoply was regular top 10 TT finisher with a DS3 until the last few months of GT5 when he finally got a wheel. This is in TT's without SRF, something that wasn't available in TT's until recently.

 

[nasanu]

Pad users have an advantage for sure, always will. I know I have personally lost a competition (for a trip to the Japan GP , was left with just a small HDTV ) to a pad user and simply to the speed he could turn the wheels (after the comp I did testing with the pad, made significant gains in tight turns against my wheel ghost).

Pad users can with practice (and in game smoothing) become very, very smooth which is the only said advantage of a wheel. Also wheel users control two inputs with their feet. Fingers are far, far better suited to this and are designed for precision, your feet are simply not.

In short:

Pad Pros:
minimum lock to lock time the game can produce
precision throttle
precision braking

Wheel Pros:
in some games a wheel can be smoother if the game does not support pad input properly
its more fun?...

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Pad users have an advantage for sure, always will..... very smooth which is the only said advantage of a wheel.

Pad Pros:

precision throttle
precision braking

Are you actually being serious?