DS3 vs. wheel physics in GT6

[1241Penguin]

Wheel FFB might also have an effect, try that with disabled FFB.

I don't see how FFB would make a difference. It's worth noting that in GT5 and GT6, there's a deadzone when the wheel is centered, so it's basically like having no FFB at all.

Then use stick, disable left analog stick for steering (under option - put it to N/A ) then assign steering to D pad.

So just assign the steering to the d-pad and not the analog stick? Again, I don't see how this would make a difference.

Pad users have an advantage for sure, always will. I know I have personally lost a competition (for a trip to the Japan GP , was left with just a small HDTV ) to a pad user and simply to the speed he could turn the wheels (after the comp I did testing with the pad, made significant gains in tight turns against my wheel ghost).

I agree that DS3 users can flick from lock to lock much faster than wheel users, but this:

Pad Pros:
minimum lock to lock time the game can produce
precision throttle
precision braking

...might only be true if the player is using L2 and R2. Otherwise, the pressure sensitive buttons that is and are ridiculously hard to modulate compared with using the pedals. I don't think the pad has an advantage over the wheel in this regard.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I don't see how FFB would make a difference. It's worth noting that in GT5 and GT6, there's a deadzone when the wheel is centered, so it's basically like having no FFB at all.

So just assign the steering to the d-pad and not the analog stick? Again, I don't see how this would make a difference.

I agree that DS3 users can flick from lock to lock much faster than wheel users, but this:

...might only be true if the player is using L2 and R2. Otherwise, the pressure sensitive buttons that is and are ridiculously hard to modulate compared with using the pedals. I don't think the pad has an advantage over the wheel in this regard.

So, FFB do not make any difference, thanks for the info. I used to think that FFB might have a hand to cause the so called torque steer when the driver do not hold it when launching hard.

And regarding the L2/R2, and the face buttons and for example, this is only for DS3 stick. With DS2, the gas and brake using and are actually better than L2/R2 - better pressure range - similar to Ace Combat radar button Imagine throttle and brake with that kind of input range.

Check the replay I attached in this post, you will see what I am talking about. Everyone who are stuck with stick (no wheel) and having trouble braking or applying throttle accurately should consider it, even if using aids, as it gives better feel when braking or exiting a corner.

To anyone that thinks you can't be good/fast with DS3 I offer you @Ridox2JZGTE who drives supercars on comfort tires, with no ABS and 9/x brake balances, something I could not do on my best day with a wheel. How he does it I do not know, but he does.
@doodlemonoply was regular top 10 TT finisher with a DS3 until the last few months of GT5 when he finally got a wheel. This is in TT's without SRF, something that wasn't available in TT's until recently.

I am not that quick, after all I'm still on a stick Anyone decent with a wheel would probably beat me.
I have a replay of my lap at Bathurst, this time on Pagani Huayra from arcade courtesy car, which means stock everything, even 5/5 BB. Same recipe, comfort soft, no ABS or other aids, grip real. Got a sub 2:20s with it, and what a rush driving the land rocket The lap is not perfect, but clean

 

[Stotty]

A good (not great, just a decent one) wheel player can smoke an EXPERT ds3 player all the time. Easily.
Just look at gt5 wrs leaderbord here on gtp, you can count ds3 players on one hand. Gt6 will be the same thing.

Not true - There are DS3 players who are almost as fast as the very fastest wheel users and would 'smoke' 'good' wheels users.

Before switching to a wheel, @doodlemonoply regularly ranked top 10 with the DS3 in Seasonal TT's in GT5, and there's a Japanese player who was also incredibly fast.

 

[Scaff]

So, FFB do not make any difference, thanks for the info. I used to think that FFB might have a hand to cause the so called torque steer when the driver do not hold it when launching hard.

FFB does have an influence in these circumstances, if torque steer was modeled correctly in RWD cars then it would be present even if you held the steering dead straight.

If it's not (and its not that I've found yet) possible then it's not modelled.

 

[Damon Hill]

Are you actually being serious?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Not true - There are DS3 players who are almost as fast as the very fastest wheel users and would 'smoke' 'good' wheels users.

Before switching to a wheel, @doodlemonoply regularly ranked top 10 with the DS3 in Seasonal TT's in GT5, and there are a number of Japanese players who are also incredibly fast.

Corrected .


Crazy how fast people can go with pad. I think though pad users have disadvantage in that you can't have full range of steering when you want to or difficulty of reacting quickly as you generally have to be commited for a corner before a wheel player has to be. Good example that shows the weakness is when using something like X2010, I don't think SRF is as strong as GT5 was so I don't think smooth steering with pad will be as at a disadvantage as it was before.

Custom setups though, the difference becomes very small for a top wheel player versus a top pad player. I think the way the steering works, cars tend to understeer more with pad so when there are custom setups, I noticed the fast pad setups generally tend to make the car very pointy, similar to setups of wheel users who use active steering on strong. I think you are also likely to suffer tank slappers more with a pad due to not having the range to control especially on stock setup cars. Driftable setups though, pads seem dominate with the speed of lock to lock.

In all I think difference is the way the input is with steering, in general I think pad steering is restricted at speed when you have rear end grip, steering becomes more free when there is less grip at the rear or whatever you need to do to make car more pointy for good change of direction. Also the way the initial input loads the front tyres I think is more different than the way a wheel user turns. This is based mainly on what I experienced on GT5 and I think is what is the case with GT6 as it feels similar in controls from what I have tried so far and read on here.

 

[Doodle]

A good (not great, just a decent one) wheel player can smoke an EXPERT ds3 player all the time. Easily.
Just look at gt5 wrs leaderbord here on gtp, you can count ds3 players on one hand. Gt6 will be the same thing.

I think you may want to check your facts again. I myself am a DS3 master, and was able to keep up and even beat some of the fastest wheel users on the planet in seasonal time trials and online races. The same can be said for the ultimate DS3 users of samurai_405, GT-PILOT_dee, and Adam2167. Even the great Dan Holland was able to set world records in GT4 and GT5P with just a pad. There are too many quick DS3 users to list I know of that can just destroy most wheel users.

The only reason you don't see DS3s winning in the WRS is because almost everyone there uses a wheel of some sort.

 

[Foxiol]

I don´t want to read the rest but Physics in the game are unique. What really changes is the way you make behave the cars because of the imput received by a controller or the wheel.

The Controller is more, let´s call it "impulsive" or "direct" in the way that you can´t have a more specific control over the handling of the car. It is all about how you control your own actions/reactions over the car.

With a wheel it is more specific, the info you are getting (thanks to the force feedback that let you know what the car is really doing like tyres loosing grip, despite the visual side) and then how you can counteract all these signs and information. You are more in contact with the car and the physics, you depend more of the overall experience to say something.
That´s what it is called simulation.

In simulators like rFactor 2 if you plug a controller the cars are impossible to drive because the physics are way too complex. The imput works way too fast and while driving you can´t do things as fast as you are allowed with a controller.

At least in GT6 you can customize your controller by making the fast response of the controller a little bit slower so you can control the cars better.
Yet you are missing all the details of the physics that your hands should be receiving. Simulators are all about the feel of the cars. If you don´t have that "you are just playing a game" not the sim.
And don´t get this wrong, we don´t play with cars...we drive them.

 

[KWZX10]

I think you may want to check your facts again. I myself am a DS3 master, and was able to keep up and even beat some of the fastest wheel users on the planet in seasonal time trials and online races. The same can be said for the ultimate DS3 users of samurai_405, GT-PILOT_dee, and Adam2167. Even the great Dan Holland was able to set world records in GT4 and GT5P with just a pad. There are too many quick DS3 users to list I know of that can just destroy most wheel users.

The only reason you don't see DS3s winning in the WRS is because almost everyone there uses a wheel of some sort.

Not true - There are DS3 players who are almost as fast as the very fastest wheel users and would 'smoke' 'good' wheels users.

Before switching to a wheel, @doodlemonoply regularly ranked top 10 with the DS3 in Seasonal TT's in GT5, and there's a Japanese player who was also incredibly fast.

Ok it's true, some can, but we're talking about monsters with ds3 here, if there was an advantange using a ds3 beating skilled wheel players should be a common thing, don't you think? At least half of the fastest players would be ds3 if this was true.
That's the point, the fact that you use a ds3 make the game easier? Not really. It's just a totally different way to play, the fact that we can turn faster isn't a real advantage since most of the time you end up overcorrecting, and it's not that accurate.
If you're not good, i mean.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Well, it doesn't matter which is ultimately faster for other users. I'm not the best GT player about, by a long way, infact, I'm normally one of the slowest amongst my friends. But I definitely feel I'm held back by my inability to correctly modulate throttle and brake, and whilst it could be argued that DS3 users can go lock to lock in the blink of an eye (though this is NOT what the game simulates), I doubt that out weighs the ability of a wheel to allow more precision, and less over-correction.

Anyhow, I've just put my money where my mouth is and ordered a T500RS. I fully expect to be much slower to begin with, I used D-pad in GT1, cheapo wheel for GT2, Analogue Sticks for GT3, 4P, 4, 5P, 5 and 6 so far - so it will take a bit of getting used to to re-learn the feeling of the cars and the tracks, but I do expect to be faster in the long run.

I like time trialling, and I like spreadsheets, so I will have data to compare

.. also don't get me started on drifting with a DS3!

 

[Spiderman_Geek]

I agree that DS3 users can flick from lock to lock much faster than wheel users, but this:

...might only be true if the player is using L2 and R2. Otherwise, the pressure sensitive buttons that is and are ridiculously hard to modulate compared with using the pedals. I don't think the pad has an advantage over the wheel in this regard.

Don't forget about the right thumbstick. I find that I can be pretty damn precise & smooth with my throttle & brake mapped to the right thumbstick. Much more so than if I were to use the triggers or X & [].

My thumb isn't hindered by what my index fingers are doing. Simply put, my thumb is steadier than any of my fingers since the fingers tend to cramp up after hours of gameplay.

You should see the thumbsticks on my DS3 controllers, they're pretty warn down now. I'm probably due for some new controllers, but I just bought a DF GT yesterday.

I was looking for a new challenge/experience with Gran Turismo and I have never used a wheel before. I suck balls with it and have many hours of practice ahead of me. I still tended to switch back to DS3 last night to get better times on the seasonal events.

 

[Jae Knight]

Pad users have an advantage for sure, always will. I know I have personally lost a competition (for a trip to the Japan GP , was left with just a small HDTV ) to a pad user and simply to the speed he could turn the wheels (after the comp I did testing with the pad, made significant gains in tight turns against my wheel ghost).

Pad users can with practice (and in game smoothing) become very, very smooth which is the only said advantage of a wheel. Also wheel users control two inputs with their feet. Fingers are far, far better suited to this and are designed for precision, your feet are simply not.

In short:

Pad Pros:
minimum lock to lock time the game can produce
precision throttle
precision braking

Wheel Pros:
in some games a wheel can be smoother if the game does not support pad input properly
its more fun?...

I'd have to disagree about precision in throttle and braking are better on pad. like honestly, brake control and throttle control are way more precise on pedals then your fingers on the pad or analog stick throttle. the wheel and pedals capability to be precise is what it's disadvantage can be. You can be sloppy af on brake and throttle on controller and still be fast.
just my opinion.

 

[jsjakesaid]

From my studies and tests i have found that the steering is "softer" than on GT5 so you feel the car's feedback less, thereby not being able to feel the right angle to counter steer to. when i reduce the G27's turning radius the feel is much better, you can actually feel the car's balance point, which is sad, as i love 900 degrees of ratation... and im gonna be forced to move onto the t500rs, which i do love, but id rather not spend all that cash, but, gt6 is gt6... more money spent on gt series i guess lol

 

[montez34]

I'd have to disagree about precision in throttle and braking are better on pad. like honestly, brake control and throttle control are way more precise on pedals then your fingers on the pad or analog stick throttle. the wheel and pedals capability to be precise is what it's disadvantage can be. You can be sloppy af on brake and throttle on controller and still be fast.
just my opinion.

I disagree there, I'm extremely smooth with the throttle and brakes on the right analog stick. You have much more precise control with your fingers than your feet. Try to crack an egg with your feet and tell me how that goes.

 

[occasionalracer]

I disagree there, I'm extremely smooth with the throttle and brakes on the right analog stick. You have much more precise control with your fingers than your feet. Try to crack an egg with your feet and tell me how that goes.

You get that feeling because the controller inputs are heavily smoothed out, there;s simply waaay more range to modulate everything using wheels, I just don't see how there's any way to be absolutely consistant and perfect with that little motion.. I've had to use the DS3 so far in GT6 (until I get everything set-up again), for the first time since GT4 actually besides GT PSP and random racing at friends.. so I've been fiddeling around with the controller, but I absolutely hate it! all the tiny mistakes are completly avoidable if I just had the whole wheel in my hands to do exactly what I want. Sure I could get more precise with practice, but then there's also the fact there's no feedback which hinders alot of the natural movements the wheel makes over uneven ground and the fine adjustments you can make to smooth it all out.

I'll put it this way, if GT6 had realistic tire wear, (good) controller users would be in big trouble many laps before (good) wheel users.

Nice analogy with the egg cracking by the way lol, in return may I ask if you've ever 'kicked' a soccer ball with your arm.. what's your distance on that? Or alternatively why aren't racing drivers just using a high sensitivity remote controllers to race their cars if it's so precise? Silly question I know, but nothing will beat using both arms and legs to do all the work for a long time (I hope).

 

[Jae Knight]

I disagree there, I'm extremely smooth with the throttle and brakes on the right analog stick. You have much more precise control with your fingers than your feet. Try to crack an egg with your feet and tell me how that goes.

with the analog stick i can understand it being better than the pedals, if done right. valid. but with pad not so much.

 

[Jae Knight]

like in the end, i think ds3 users have an advantage but doesn't make them untouchable. Just at times feels a little unfair but it's just a game

 

[KWZX10]

like in the end, i think ds3 users have an advantage but doesn't make them untouchable. Just at times feels a little unfair but it's just a game

What's exactly unfair?

 

[Jae Knight]

What's exactly unfair?

like, i guess only really the range of steering/braking/throttle input it takes to make mistakes and recover from them. Like personally i feel like i can drive a poor racing line with ds3 and still be clocking times better than my wheel time. i'm not suggesting that wheel users need to be faster than ds3 users. for example, just the thought that while i'm concentrating like crazy racing with a wheel, the car in front of me(ds3 user) isn't even close to putting the same physical effort, just like small actions. idk that make sense?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

with the analog stick i can understand it being better than the pedals, if done right. valid. but with pad not so much.

Obviously, you never try play GT6 with DS2

 

[KWZX10]

like, i guess only really the range of steering/braking/throttle input it takes to make mistakes and recover from them. Like personally i feel like i can drive a poor racing line with ds3 and still be clocking times better than my wheel time. i'm not suggesting that wheel users need to be faster than ds3 users. for example, just the thought that while i'm concentrating like crazy racing with a wheel, the car in front of me(ds3 user) isn't even close to putting the same physical effort, just like small actions. idk that make sense?

You may be right about the physical side (obviously), but believe me it's a lot more difficult to be consistent for an entire long race with the ds3. You don't have the control, the feel of the car like with a wheel, you're on the edge all the time if you want to keep a fast pace constantly. It's really easy to make mistakes.

 

[OdeFinn]

Wheel users are stumbling different problems on same car than DS3 players, it doesn't matter what kind of problems really, just same car is having different problems to wheel vs. DS3.

Reducing grip and those differences will be seen more, acceleration and wheel users are signing pavement when DS3 users are just pushing forward, same on braking, then tight cornering goes easier on wheel and again when straight opens DS3 guys are just flying, fast corners DS3 and wheel are close to each other, wheel user holding his breath and DS3 just lifting gas turning and pushing again gas - same on wheel have to do really carefully to avoid traction lose on engine brake, but on DS3 can be done much more careless gas liftoff.
It's like DS3 having "steering damper" from motobike, so "driver" can't do too quick turns on steering, damper will make smoothness to there and compensating that radical turn if needed - bit softer damper on brake and gas. (I know at those bike dampers are not for that)

Props to DS3 players, but still my opinion is that at wheel is only way to control a car, even on simulated one.

 

[Jae Knight]

You may be right about the physical side (obviously), but believe me it's a lot more difficult to be consistent for an entire long race with the ds3. You don't have the control, the feel of the car like with a wheel, you're on the edge all the time if you want to keep a fast pace constantly. It's really easy to make mistakes.

true. i just feel like cars can be pushed more on ds3 at times more than on a wheel
but like i said earlier, it's just a game so whatever.

 

[RacingManiac]

Just a random point....I had a hell of a time trying to get through the coffee break challenge with the XBow R at GT Arena's cone course(one that you don't hit the cone...) on DS3 when I was away from my wheel setup. The best I could manage was a Silver. The first completed run I had with wheel was 2 sec faster....I can thread through that middle bit with the forrest of cones with relative ease where as with DS3 I was being very ginger and losing a ton of time...You are used to what you are used to I guess...