[edit:] Know how to mod a sim racing wheel?

  • Thread starter gordie44
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Hello GTPlanet :)

I have been thinking of designing another rig, something inspired by this gentleman's here:

http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=248.0

I saw his thread on here, but it looks like he doesn't check this website anymore.

I have been searching, trying to find plans to build my own wheel.

anyone have any ideas or links on how I would go about doing it?

Preferably I would do it with a DFGT as a base, but would consider going up to a G27 if necessary.

Thanks!
 
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Well really all it takes is buying a new wheel rim from MOMO, Sparco, etc. and one of Derek Spears wheel adapters (as far as I know the only person who makes one for the Driving Force wheels) and then bolting it all onto the base.

It is probably going to be a lot easier to do with the G27 for several reasons starting with the fact that all but a few of the buttons on a G25/27 are located on the shifter meaning there are fewer buttons to relocate once you change the rim. If you did this with the Driving Force you would either have to relocate the PCB board from inside the Driving Force rim to an external box or you could attach all of the original buttons to your new wheel like an F1 wheel, this could be difficult though depending on the size and shape of the DFGT board and it will also require quite a bit of soldering in the process.

Another issue is the paddle shifters. On the G27 the paddles are attached to the steering column as opposed to the back of the wheel rim a la the DFGT. If you changed the rim on the G27 the paddles stay in place and can be used with the new rim (although depending on the rim diameter you may need to replace the paddles with larger ones) but doing this with the DFGT would mean having to design some sort of paddle shift mechanism yourself (which has been done before, granted this isn't on a DFGT but the concept is the same.)

Its not impossible to do it with the DFGT and probably not that difficult just more time consuming than anything else, you would certainly be doing a lot more fab work your self whereas you can more or less buy a wheel rim, and adapter, and pre-made and wired button plate and just bolt it all onto the G27 and go. Even if you decided to layout your G27 buttons your self you would be making something more like this guy did than Gov's setup I showed you above.
 
gordie44
Hello GTPlanet :)

I have been thinking of designing another rig, something inspired by this gentleman's here:

http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=248.0

I saw his thread on here, but it looks like he doesn't check this website anymore.

I have been searching, trying to find plans to build my own wheel.

anyone have any ideas or links on how I would go about doing it?

Preferably I would do it with a DFGT as a base, but would consider going up to a G27 if necessary.

Thanks!

Now did you mean your own cockpit or racing wheel. they are two veeeery different challenges. The F1 wheel rim he designed and built himself took an amazing amount of circuitry wiring knowledge, borderline electrical engineering work, but the cockpit he designed could be made by people who have the time and dedication to the detailed finishing woodworking and foam shaping abilities needed to achieve a replica of this caliber. If you are just looking to build a simple F1 style cockpit out of plywood, put a glossy painted finish on it and add a CSW/T500rs in there, I am looking to do the same and will shoot you some info about build plans that include dimentions.
 
Now did you mean your own cockpit or racing wheel. they are two veeeery different challenges. The F1 wheel rim he designed and built himself took an amazing amount of circuitry wiring knowledge, borderline electrical engineering work, but the cockpit he designed could be made by people who have the time and dedication to the detailed finishing woodworking and foam shaping abilities needed to achieve a replica of this caliber. If you are just looking to build a simple F1 style cockpit out of plywood, put a glossy painted finish on it and add a CSW/T500rs in there, I am looking to do the same and will shoot you some info about build plans that include dimentions.

Thanks Brock1!

And lemansfanatic :

I am talking about just the wheel. The F1 rim shouldn't be too much of a problem but it would take some time.

What I guess I'm really asking, is how to extend the steering column so that the base can be behind or just in front of the pedals. That way my knees won't be knocking it. I saw another gent that did the same, the guy who made the Opel Astra cockpit that was featured on here a couple months back. Both the F1 cockpit and the opel cockpit seemed to have extended steering columns.

Do you think that would affect the FFB? (ie lessen it as it is overall more mass to spin?) and would it be as simple as making a couple adaptors (not too hard) for both ends of the extended column?

Thanks all for your replies :)
 
gordie44
Thanks Brock1!

And lemansfanatic :

I am talking about just the wheel. The F1 rim shouldn't be too much of a problem but it would take some time.

What I guess I'm really asking, is how to extend the steering column so that the base can be behind or just in front of the pedals. That way my knees won't be knocking it. I saw another gent that did the same, the guy who made the Opel Astra cockpit that was featured on here a couple months back. Both the F1 cockpit and the opel cockpit seemed to have extended steering columns.

Do you think that would affect the FFB? (ie lessen it as it is overall more mass to spin?) and would it be as simple as making a couple adaptors (not too hard) for both ends of the extended column?

Thanks all for your replies :)

There are places you can buy a (or build one from car parts) a u joint and/or longer steering shaft to be able place the wheel base further away. There's a guy named Remco Hitman on TWIP who did it with his G27, but he said that the extra weight really hurt the FFB effects of the wheel. He has since moved to a much more powerful and expensive wheel, I'm to busy to look it up and post the link right now but his thread is one of the more active on the site.
 
In that thread someone posted about a new Leo board that replaces the G27's guts to allow you to use 48V motors, that would help improve the FFB with a steering column extension somewhat. I wonder when he'll release it, it sounds like a great thing to have. That wheel looks scary as hell though, I remember once when I was younger I hurt my wrist on a Daytona arcade machine after a hefty crash, but that? No thank you!
 
Hwangm
remco use a £3000 bodnar wheel(motor) now, things that really really scary to watch when you crash,
heres link with video http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=2273.0

after watching it , I don't want tripple screen anymore. I want just one projector. look at that FOV

That level of ffb is exactly what i have been looking for, thank you for posting this! I was thinking even a CSW might not be strong enough for what I want. I am going to dig some more into this
 
If you are just looking to build a simple F1 style cockpit out of plywood, put a glossy painted finish on it and add a CSW/T500rs in there, I am looking to do the same and will shoot you some info about build plans that include dimentions.

I've been thinking, and I could actually use those plans/dimemsions as a base for my own design, if you'd be willing to send them? PM me!

Thanks lemansfanatic!
 
That level of ffb is exactly what i have been looking for, thank you for posting this! I was thinking even a CSW might not be strong enough for what I want. I am going to dig some more into this

The CSW uses the same motor and configuration as the CSR-E and even that doesn't quite compare to higher end wheels like the Frex Simwheel when it comes to FFB strength. And in term of the motor and power supply, the Bodnar kills the Frex.
 
That level of ffb is exactly what i have been looking for, thank you for posting this! I was thinking even a CSW might not be strong enough for what I want. I am going to dig some more into this

most welcomed,the waitting time for him I think was 8 months( what a patient guy) even IF I have that kind of money to burn in simracing I would think twice getting that motor. as full gloves is essential now, since catching that wheel during spin looks to be skin lifting of the palms :nervous:
but yeah with gloves noworries ,
on the crash he had to let go and that's only running 50%:crazy:
 
Wow, good luck to the OP. Nice inspiration piece as well I had drawn up a design similar to that but instead around an F1 Playseat the standard one. Seems others have done it so that will help me with my goal.
 
Thanks everyone who's posted! I think my question has been answered, in that the logitech motors are not strong enough with a steering column extension.

I wonder how easy it would be to find my own motors (that aren't 3000€) to replace them with? Like an RC Car motor or something.

Electronics and wiring are pretty straightforward for me, it's programming that I am a novice at.
 
If you need any help i would be happy to help you :dopey:

i have missed this topic, sorry

Indeed thank you! I'll pm you, but if you don't check this Site that often maybe pm me an email address or another forum that you check more? Thanks!
 
Thanks everyone who's posted! I think my question has been answered, in that the logitech motors are not strong enough with a steering column extension.

I wonder how easy it would be to find my own motors (that aren't 3000€) to replace them with? Like an RC Car motor or something.

Electronics and wiring are pretty straightforward for me, it's programming that I am a novice at.

Do you mind me asking why you think you need programming knowledge? I ask because I'm under the impression that you could replace the 12V motors with higher voltage ones just with hardware (transistors and/or opto-isolators, maybe, I'd be guessing if I went into more detail), so do you know something or are you assuming it'll take some software, presumably via auxiliary programmable microcontrollers?
 
Do you mind me asking why you think you need programming knowledge? I ask because I'm under the impression that you could replace the 12V motors with higher voltage ones just with hardware (transistors and/or opto-isolators, maybe, I'd be guessing if I went into more detail), so do you know something or are you assuming it'll take some software, presumably via auxiliary programmable microcontrollers?

Haha!! :) I guess I assumed that there would only be the positive/negative wires going to each motor, so that I would need to add more than just hardware to be able to power stronger motors.

I guessed that the wheel guts would just send the current to the motors via these two wires, telling it which way to turn, and when. I figured that if I added stronger motors, I would need to somehow change the way that the logitech guts sent that information to the new motors, if they drew more power then they would need an alternative power source, no? Which I thought might negate how the info was sent to the motors in the first place.

I am guessing here, I don't have a wheel that I feel confident in taking apart just yet, so if anyone else has, I would love to know!

Edit: neema I know you're an EE student, so it would be awesome if you could shed some light on this! I know you might be guessing as you haven't done this yourself, but theory is better than nothing! :)
 
neema_t
Do you mind me asking why you think you need programming knowledge? I ask because I'm under the impression that you could replace the 12V motors with higher voltage ones just with hardware (transistors and/or opto-isolators, maybe, I'd be guessing if I went into more detail), so do you know something or are you assuming it'll take some software, presumably via auxiliary programmable microcontrollers?

I am a novice at elictrical wiring as well, but something tells me it would be a lot harder than simply puting on a bigger motor and connecting red to red black to black...
 
Haha!! :) I guess I assumed that there would only be the positive/negative wires going to each motor, so that I would need to add more than just hardware to be able to power stronger motors.

I guessed that the wheel guts would just send the current to the motors via these two wires, telling it which way to turn, and when. I figured that if I added stronger motors, I would need to somehow change the way that the logitech guts sent that information to the new motors, if they drew more power then they would need an alternative power source, no? Which I thought might negate how the info was sent to the motors in the first place.

I am guessing here, I don't have a wheel that I feel confident in taking apart just yet, so if anyone else has, I would love to know!

Edit: neema I know you're an EE student, so it would be awesome if you could shed some light on this! I know you might be guessing as you haven't done this yourself, but theory is better than nothing! :)

Well I am only a student and I am just guessing, but there are a few ways I can see of dealing with this... Of course I could be completely wrong, so obviously don't take my word for it!

Also when I say 'hardware', I mean physical electronic components, not just the motor. If you did just add the motor you'd likely blow something important in the wheel up because of excess current gain basically shorting it out.

The way I imagine the G27 to work is like this: You have the 5V USB powered logic and 12V externally powered motor circuit, which if I remember correctly runs at 12V 1.25A, or maybe 1.75A, I can't remember exactly. You obviously can't use the 5V signal to drive the motors directly, so as it is there must be a point on the board where 5V is telling the 12V what to do. So it follows that you should be able to hook in to that 5V signal and replace the 12V circuit entirely with a 48V one (for the sake of example), and I'm pretty sure that would be easy enough to do, in theory anyway.

As far as I can tell without an oscilloscope and without ever looking inside a G27, there are two ways Logitech can get varying levels of torque from the wheel as they do, namely pulse width modulation (PWM) or an analogue signal. PWM is a digital method where they basically vary the duty cycle of a rectangular pulse wave, or to put it more simply, it's a digital wave (so it only has two states, on and off) which varies the on and off time to produce the same effects as an analogue signal. My bet would be that this is what they use.

The other option is an analogue signal, which would make much less sense because transistors are difficult to regulate and G27 wheels would need to be re-calibrated every few months as the transistors age, and they'd also change their response as they get hotter from normal use, becoming more conductive as they warm up. I really don't think this is what they've used, though.

It's possible they've used something I don't know about yet, but if they do use PWM you should be able to hook into that signal, add a 48V motor controller to the end of it (which is all hardware) and hook that up to the motor. There are loads of motor controllers you can buy pre-made from robotics hobby sites and some motor controller ICs, like the L293D, should you wish to build your own.

Assuming I guessed right and the motors are controlled by PWM, this might be worth reading, if only for the theory, but it has some examples of the kind of circuit you might need: http://www.picotech.com/applications/pwm_drivers/

I can't really say anything with any certainty, though, until I've opened a G27 and had a probe around with an oscilloscope and unfortunately my wheel is still very much under warranty so I'm far too scared to use mine as a guinea pig! I do hope that was of some use, though.
 
Well I am only a student and I am just guessing, but there are a few ways I can see of dealing with this... Of course I could be completely wrong, so obviously don't take my word for it!

Also when I say 'hardware', I mean physical electronic components, not just the motor. If you did just add the motor you'd likely blow something important in the wheel up because of excess current gain basically shorting it out.

The way I imagine the G27 to work is like this: You have the 5V USB powered logic and 12V externally powered motor circuit, which if I remember correctly runs at 12V 1.25A, or maybe 1.75A, I can't remember exactly. You obviously can't use the 5V signal to drive the motors directly, so as it is there must be a point on the board where 5V is telling the 12V what to do. So it follows that you should be able to hook in to that 5V signal and replace the 12V circuit entirely with a 48V one (for the sake of example), and I'm pretty sure that would be easy enough to do, in theory anyway.

As far as I can tell without an oscilloscope and without ever looking inside a G27, there are two ways Logitech can get varying levels of torque from the wheel as they do, namely pulse width modulation (PWM) or an analogue signal. PWM is a digital method where they basically vary the duty cycle of a rectangular pulse wave, or to put it more simply, it's a digital wave (so it only has two states, on and off) which varies the on and off time to produce the same effects as an analogue signal. My bet would be that this is what they use.

The other option is an analogue signal, which would make much less sense because transistors are difficult to regulate and G27 wheels would need to be re-calibrated every few months as the transistors age, and they'd also change their response as they get hotter from normal use, becoming more conductive as they warm up. I really don't think this is what they've used, though.

It's possible they've used something I don't know about yet, but if they do use PWM you should be able to hook into that signal, add a 48V motor controller to the end of it (which is all hardware) and hook that up to the motor. There are loads of motor controllers you can buy pre-made from robotics hobby sites and some motor controller ICs, like the L293D, should you wish to build your own.

Assuming I guessed right and the motors are controlled by PWM, this might be worth reading, if only for the theory, but it has some examples of the kind of circuit you might need: http://www.picotech.com/applications/pwm_drivers/

I can't really say anything with any certainty, though, until I've opened a G27 and had a probe around with an oscilloscope and unfortunately my wheel is still very much under warranty so I'm far too scared to use mine as a guinea pig! I do hope that was of some use, though.

Thanks for your help neema! Have to ask though, is this as complicated as it sounds to double or triple the power ? I guess I'm not really sure where to start looking for parts, and what would match with what. Like you, I strongly assume it's not an analogue wheel, as I've seen a few of those online and they all strongly advertise that fact if they have it.

Is there anyone else out there with experience modifying the motor power of a given wheel, (preferably a g27) ?
 
Hence the value of an T500s, Elite, and CSW. I just wish they were more powerful. I think they are all well positioned in the market though. But yeah, 3000£ is insane for a modded G27 I agree. Good luck diving into the world of modding, you brave soul! :)
 
Hence the value of an T500s, Elite, and CSW. I just wish they were more powerful. I think they are all well positioned in the market though. But yeah, 3000£ is insane for a modded G27 I agree. Good luck diving into the world of modding, you brave soul! :)

Thank you! :) I sure will need it! :scared::crazy:
 
gordie44
Thanks for your help neema! Have to ask though, is this as complicated as it sounds to double or triple the power ? I guess I'm not really sure where to start looking for parts, and what would match with what.

I honestly couldn't tell you how difficult it is, but the hard part will be working out where to get the control signal from. The rest is easy; choose a motor (36 or 48V would probably suit your needs) then get a power supply that can supply it at 100% load with some headroom to be safe and a motor controller that does PWM (if our assumptions are correct) and can handle the power you'll be putting through it. I had a quick look earlier and found one 48V motor for £40 (if I remember correctly), a 48V PWM motor driver IC for £9 and a power supply won't be hugely expensive or hard to find. If it is, though, making your own isn't THAT hard; it's a transformer, a voltage regulator and a few caps. Well, that works for getting 5V from 240V, but that's only at 500mA. High currents might require a little more complexity, but I've never looked at a high power supply before. In any case, it won't cost anywhere near £3,000!

As for places to buy all this stuff, I remember what the US/Canadian-specific suppliers are called but see if Farnell/Element14 or RS Components have a Canadian supplier, if they don't have something you need then it pretty much doesn't exist.

I'll have to sit down and have a look at some parts and their datasheets to see if I can come up with a usable combination, but I can't do that until my girlfriend has gone home. I have a DFP in pieces by my desk, making a 48V beast out of it would be a fun side project!
 
Hence the value of an T500s, Elite, and CSW. I just wish they were more powerful. I think they are all well positioned in the market though. But yeah, 3000£ is insane for a modded G27 I agree. Good luck diving into the world of modding, you brave soul! :)

Again, it's not entirely unique- the $2500 Simwheel Type-G is G25 based as well as something like Lenkrad JL-G25:

JL-G25_1.jpg


The upside is that you can run it with the PS3 (and of course GT5) and perhaps if you use the electronic of Fanatec CSR, for example, shouldn't the Bodnar wheel be Xbox (XiD) compatible as well?

I would love to be able to use the Bodnar in something like this (although in this case the guy is using the ECCI 7000: http://tiny.cc/h8ofew)

DSC_0064.jpg


DSC_0067.jpg
 
So I stripped my old DFP yesterday, and I mean stripped, gearbox included, which was kind of unnecessary... Anyway, I found that there are a pair of ICs that drive the motor, but being surface mount components they have an abbreviated code that corresponds to what they actually are, and I can't find the code for them.

I do know, however, that they are MOSFETs (MOSFET stands for Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor, which are used for amplifying and switching) because I've done some research on them and the G25 circuitry. Look here:

5120265086_789f7d2f4d.jpg


You see the gold coloured patch at the top of the board with the two pairs of thick red and black wires? Those wires are the motor power cables, and the two 8-pin surface mount ICs are the motor driver MOSFETs. To drive higher loads, all you need is to find appropriate replacement MOSFETs to drive higher loads, and if they don't exist, take the signal that would operate the MOSFETs and drive something else with them.

Interestingly, my DFP has almost the exact same circuitry around the gold patch, only with just one motor instead of two. That should mean that I can work out how to modify a G27 by modifying my DFP, but I really need to find the datasheets for these ICs first.
 
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That is awesome Neema! Thanks so much for doing this! I would much prefer using a DFGT for my project anyways, as I would be replacing the rim and removing the shifter anyways! Plus they're only about $100 from my work.

But please continue however you'd like :) i would easily upgrade my plans to a G27 if necessary. this would all be way over my head were it not for you! :D

This is great info for anyone else looking to mod their wheel as well!


Edit: didn't see the first time that you put DFP instead of DFGT, a mistake I've made several times before.
In any case, my previous comment still stands in that I certainly don't mind getting a G27 instead :)
 
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