Enzo time on Nordschleife?

[DeLoreanBrown]

Weight counts when you are pulling G's . The heavier the car the more inertia at the same speed . The Veyron , being mid-engined , does it's best to manage it's bulk but it'll still hurtle like a freight train .
Blazin' does have a point though , that's a wuss 7'40 considering the Bug's potential , and same goes for the Enzo it should be ashamed that it'll do a Micheal 'round Monz but it calls in sick when it's time for the Green Hell .

 

[Sting]

Funny how this thread started about an Enzo time around the 'Ring and has turned out as a debate between the Vette and Veyron's times. and as daan said:

"After buying Bugatti, the boss of VW wondered what to do with the name. He announced that they would build a car that had 1000bhp and would do 400km/h (250mph). The engineers were left thinking, "How do we do that?" The Veyron was designed around those 2 criteria."

Gotta admit, I like that the Vette beat the Veyron

 

[Z32]

Guess what? The cars are made for different purposes. Apples and oranges, you could say. Except the apple has a bajillion horsepower.

ROFL!!!

i think grip is another huge factor, esp around the ring. veyron slapping that weight around those bends, what torture on those tires... not quite as finesse as the z06.

would yall think the MC12 be quicker than the enzo on the ring?
cus everyone wants to be like 50 now

 

[Sting]

Isnt the MC12 even closer to the gound than the Enzo??? Theres no way it would get round, as people have said without a repair bill waiting at the end.

 

[TheCracker]

Weight means everything on the track, the only contact a car has with the road surface is through the tyres. The more weight the tyres have to carry the quicker they'll 'go off'. I should think that even 14 miles of hard driving around the Ring in a whale like the veyron would be enough for the tyres to go past their best well before a single laps been completed. Also, the more weight your car has, the harder it is for it to shift it's mass and change direction. Therefore it's going to lap slower - it's simple physics.

 

[iceburns288]

Well I must add that in the video of I've seen of the Bugatti lapping the Ring during testing, it got passed by that new Jag XKR concept. It was HARDLY pushing it. Who knows if it's set a real lap.

 

[Dave A]

You can't sit here and tell me the Bugatti wasn't made to be a race car, hello, anyone home McFly? They put 1000hp in it, trust me it's ment to own on the track. The Vette was designed to race as well, but with half the power.

The Veyron was not designed to be a race car or even like a race car. But theres little doubting that the Veyron will go faster than 7'40, remember the only time it was taken to the ring was fixing the final setup of the car, it was almost all out and in laps, they probably didn't push the car because one mistake and there goes their work. Bugatti actually took the Veyron back to the drawing settings wise because they said it felt too much like a race car and theydidn't intend it for track use they built it to be capable of being an everyday car. The technical spec of the engine was all as said purely for technical achievement. Where that leaves the Veyron in the stream of cars is vague but it was not designed for track use. But with all that said the 7'40 lap is not the be all and end all of Veyron ring times, it WILL beat that if anyone ever takes one there for a power lap.

Well I must add that in the video of I've seen of the Bugatti lapping the Ring during testing, it got passed by that new Jag XKR concept. It was HARDLY pushing it. Who knows if it's set a real lap.

Exactley, they had one car to test and they were running it so they could refine it, they wern't there to set the track on fire and they were probably told quite specifically not to push it since an accident would've been very bad at that point with not many cars built yet even for testing.

 

[Dave A]

Or maybe people are finally willing to admit the Z06 is the best buy for the money and is truely a supercar...but until then, I will stand that the Bugatti should have gone much fast and owned a car that has half its power.

And don't get me started on this best buy for the money all over again. We hit a compromise the last time and it should stay that way, different parts of the world have different best buy's, simple as.

You're arguing rather hard for what is really a moot point.

The Veyron is a "Hey, look what we can do!" car. That's it. It isn't even really practical or driver-friendly enough to be a good car for street use.

Who cares if the 'Vette beat the Bugatti 'round the 'ring? I doubt very many people were surprised by this, and it doesn't detract from the purpose of the Veyron. It's like if a highschool swimming team champion beat a muscle-bound Olympic weight-lifter in a race across the pool.

As for your "maybe people will admit now that the Z06 is great" comment...are you on some sort of personal vendetta, here?

I agree it's a moot argument, however the Veyron WAS designed more with everyday use in mind that tearing up the track. It originally was too good for the track and compromised road use as a result so they took the car back and re-started work on the settings. Also the Vette didn't beat the Veyron, but thhe Veyron only beat the Vette by 3 seconds. I'm not going to get into all this, is Blazin on a personal vedetta or anything since it'd be hypocritical of me considering what I say about TVR's but blazin's right about most of things he says on the vette, the problem is, not all of it applys outside the US.

 

[Joey D]

It isn't even really practical or driver-friendly enough to be a good car for street use.

If its not for street use then its for race track use meaning it should be fast as hell around the track. Which was determinded through lap times is not.

As for your "maybe people will admit now that the Z06 is great" comment...are you on some sort of personal vendetta, here?

I worked on the Corvette program for a while and I take pride in that car.

Chevrolet Corvette has always been about money. The concept of it was to make a cheap, affordable sportscar for the people, and so they did. And that is what Corvette is, a cheap, highperfomance sportscar!

And thats the main difference; Veyron is made for Bugatti, and Vette is made for the people! I wouldn´t translate this into competition...

The Z06 has never been about money, explain to me how it's about money. Just because its relativly cheap. Also I never ever said the Veyron competes with the Vette, I'm saying the Veyron should be much fasted then the Vette in every way.

After buying Bugatti, the boss of VW wondered what to do with the name. He announced that they would build a car that had 1000bhp and would do 400km/h (250mph). The engineers were left thinking, "How do we do that?" The Veyron was designed around those 2 criteria.

According to Jeremy Clarkson (Top Gear), it costs Bugatti £5million to build each one, yet they seel it for £800,000. It is a technological engineering excercise to see if it could be done.

Then I'm sorry but Bugatti has the stupidest management team ever. Who the hell spends that kinda of money just because they can?

 

[Dave A]

Blazin, I can see why your responding the way you are to some comments that may not be the smartest around. But to your counter arguments are wrong, the Veyron was designed purely as a road car, VAG stated this several times during the development, the fact they took it back and re thought all the settings because it's track nature was compromising it's road usability. I understand what your getting at, that it still should be faster than a Z06 in every way, and believe me it is. Like I've said a few times now, that lap time was not a hot lap, it's unfortunately the only lap of the ring the Veyron has a valid time for, the others wern't recorded by anyone, or were out and in laps. Bugatti never said, yeah we've ran the Veyron at the ring, it's done a lap in 7'40. When they do hot lap it, we will have a beter idea, but for now, accept that that time is there because it's the only one so far. As for VAG's managment, Piech has been rather too succesfull to call stupid. The Veyron has succeded in a number of things already and theres a couple it's as good as got but not offcially yet like top speed ect. The Veyron was intended to get the worlds most over the top car under the VAG umbrella, that produces publicity, brand awareness, image ect. More specifically it's the car that's spearheading the return of Bugatti, like the Bugatti's from many decades ago, they decided they'd flagship the brand with a car thats simply better than everything else at almost everything. What that does is automatically makes Bugatti a class brand when they return, the next Bugatti model won't be half as outrageous as the Veyron or as expensive, it doesn't have to be to raise the brand like the Veyron has. Auto journalists arn't all screaming the Veyron's praises for nothing you know and imo, while the Veyron isn't going to bring in a profit it'self, the fact that Bugatti have done this and none of their rivals will put's them in a better position that thier rivals in the future.

 

[TheCracker]

We've still not seen any 'proper' reviews yet of the Veyron. All the tests so far have been 'nannied' by VW so the car's have been used only on roads where VW want their car to be run. For an 'Ultimate Road Car' i've read some fairly uncomplimentary comments on it even from the 'nannied' test drives.

A test against a Macca F1, SLR, Carrera GT, Enzo, Zonda or Koningsegg will give us a proper perspective on how good the Veyron is. Until then it's all still VW 'spin'.

 

[Dave A]

Not quite true, Gordon Murray gave his opinion of the Veyron after driving it on a track, he said it feels fantastic and very chuckable and agile.

 

[TheCracker]

Both Gordon Murray and Harry Metcalf (of Evo) have complained about the turbo lag (i thought they managed to cure turbo lag in the 90's?) Murray thought the levels of lag were enough to make the car dangerous on the road.

 

[Famine]

Then I'm sorry but Bugatti has the stupidest management team ever. Who the hell spends that kinda of money just because they can?

Who doesn't?

With VAG's turnover, it's like you buying a $500 watch.


It's also what's known as a "loss-leader" - a product which makes a loss every time it is sold, but encourages you to buy other things. Obviously this is on a colossal scale, rather than a 30p packet of nuts at the supermarket, but every brand inside VAG can now claim to have "been a part of the fastest car in the world". They can tack on things seen inside it and say they are "As seen in the fastest car in the world".

Who knows, it may even sell some Phaetons.

 

[Flerbizky]

The Veyron wll easily beat the production car record.

As Hell it will.. Final words - Too Heayy.. It'll never be nearly as fast as eg. a Donkervoort or a Radical... (I mentioned Donkervoort first because I LOVE the look of the track preped winged beast though it's slower than the Rad !... )

 

[Flerbizky]

Who doesn't?

With VAG's turnover, it's like you buying a $500 watch.

Can't remember the amount, but if I recall correct, VAG "spends" 500.000 UK punds each time they _sell_ a Veyron !...

It's an engineering waypoint - but an expensive one !....

 

[iceburns288]

I worked on the Corvette program for a while and I take pride in that car.

We know, you've told us more times than the Veyron has horsepower. Anyways... of all people you should be one to understand that the Z06 is in no way a competitor of the Bugatti. If I worked at Rolls Royce, sure as hell I'd be proud of the cars I made but I'm not going to go off comparing them to, say, Boxsters or other lightweight sports cars.

 

[TheCracker]

Who knows, it may even sell some Phaetons.

You're just being ridiculous now

Its true about it being a loss-leader though. Porsche did the same with the 959 and Merc did with the SLR. Even Bugatti (one of the previous Bugattis) made a loss with the EB110 - although it did sink them in the end

 

[iceburns288]

You're just being ridiculous now

Poor Phaeton...

 

[amp88]

It would be interesting to see what kind of time the Enzo would do if it were driven in ager, but it's probably not going to happen because of the ride height (as was pointed out before)...

Off-topic: The Veyron has a 45/55 F/R weight distribution and weighs approximately 2100kg...

Think about what that means...as evo pointed out, it's got more than a McLaren F1 just over its rear axle. On most tracks the Veyron is going to be able to set a fairly impressive lap time, but on a unique track like the Nordschleife the odds are stacked firmly against it. It's not a racing car, was never intended to be one and should(?) never be one.

Blazin, you couldn't be missing the point much more if you were trying. Yes, Bugatti does have a great racing past and the Veyron does have over 1000bhp, but to call it a racing car is ludicrous. If Bugatti really wanted to make an out and out supercar or racing car for the road, seriously doubt they'd have chosen to use four turbos on the car. The amount of lag the Veyron has is supposed to be rather large (not much of a surprise really) and this alone should shout at you the purpose of this car. It's for car collectors and people who don't really car much about driving, just to be able to say they own the fastest car in the world or brag about the power output of their car. The markets for the Veyron and the Z06 are poles apart.

 

[Dave A]

Off-topic: The Veyron has a 45/55 F/R weight distribution and weighs approximately 2100kg...

1880kg's kerb weight.

 

[amp88]

1880kg's kerb weight.

Yep, but that's just the dry weight...

The final weight of the car (including fluids) is approx 2100kg.

According to Dr. Schreiber the 1888kg kerb weight is in fact a dry weight. To get a truer figure you need to allow for 100 litres of fuel, 40 litres of water for engine cooling, 15 litres of water for the twin chargecooler circuit, 20 litres of engine oil, 22 litres for the gearbox and another 15 litres for hydraulics, brakes, etc. That puts the weight closer to 2100kg

 

[Jay]

40 litres of coolant!!!
20 litres of engine oil!!
22 litres of trans oil!!
15 litres hydraulic fliuid!!

My god!! you sure thats right? I spend $50AUD for 5litre of oil for my car that would make the oil alone $200AUD for that engine.

I have read a few times that the Bugatti Veyron weights just under 2000kg's with fluids, if fuel wasnt included then 100litres may bring it upto about 2100kg's.

 

[amp88]

Yep, I double checked them before I posted to make sure.

 

[Wolfe]

I agree it's a moot argument, however the Veyron WAS designed more with everyday use in mind that tearing up the track. It originally was too good for the track and compromised road use as a result so they took the car back and re-started work on the settings. Also the Vette didn't beat the Veyron, but thhe Veyron only beat the Vette by 3 seconds. I'm not going to get into all this, is Blazin on a personal vedetta or anything since it'd be hypocritical of me considering what I say about TVR's but blazin's right about most of things he says on the vette, the problem is, not all of it applys outside the US.

Sorry, I should've been explained better. The Veyron fails as a practical road car, even ignoring price, because of its lack of luggage space, poor visibility, and intimidating size.

It's too impractical to be a great GT car, and it's too chunky to be a great supercar/trackcar.

My comment towards Blazin about the 'Vette applied only to how it seemed like he wanted to say "I told you so!" Not any of the other comments he's made about the 'Vette.

If its not for street use then its for race track use meaning it should be fast as hell around the track. Which was determinded through lap times is not.

Well, it's meant for street use...it just isn't very good at it. The only reason it's meant for street-use at all anyway is just because it ended up too heavy for track use.

I worked on the Corvette program for a while and I take pride in that car.

I can understand that, but....perhaps I just haven't read the threads with anti-C6-Z06 sentiments around here...I was under the impression that everyone agreed that it was a great car...?

 

[Dave_George]

Read this thread with interest.

My own interpretation of the Veyron is that it was built for one thing only and we all know what that was, rumour has it that Saleen are trying to upstage them with a 1000BHP version of the S7 now that has supposedly topped 260MPH....

To me its like the car version of a Suzuki Hayabusa?

Gordon Murray writes in Evo magazine issue 87 that in the real world faced with an overtaking opportunity and an approaching corner in the distance he would be safer in the F1 with its naturally aspirated engine and no lag.

With regards to the Veyrons handling i think the weight MUST have some sort of effect somewhere, I havent seen any comparisons of the car on track etc but if you think its power to weight ratio is around 500bhp/ton the F1 is looking still the best on paper for me....

Regarding the Enzo running at the Ring, I think that would be very Un-Ferrari like of them to do that.....or allow that..

Just my thoughts

regards

Dave

 

[Dave A]

Sorry, I should've been explained better. The Veyron fails as a practical road car, even ignoring price, because of its lack of luggage space, poor visibility, and intimidating size.

It's too impractical to be a great GT car, and it's too chunky to be a great supercar/trackcar.

They dissagree in the Mag reviews and when it was driven across Europe on TopGear, they loved it, it was comfey, it handled great, was nimble in traffic, and had the lags on the open road. It's not suprising about it not having luggage space, not many supercars ever do, Gordon Murray thinks the Veyron is superb on the race track even though it wasn't designed for that, he loved it on the track more than the roads. I'm waiting for it to go round TopGears track.

As for the 1000bhp S7, none have gone 260mph, none have gone 250mph, or even 240 for that matter, not yet anyway. I don't think we'l ever see a proper road car do 260 because road tyres just won't cope, thats why the Veyron was limited to 253, any faster and the tyres didn't meet the saftey requirements, and there was a lot of money spent on developing thoes tyres.

 

[Wolfe]

They dissagree in the Mag reviews and when it was driven across Europe on TopGear, they loved it, it was comfey, it handled great, was nimble in traffic, and had the lags on the open road. It's not suprising about it not having luggage space, not many supercars ever do, Gordon Murray thinks the Veyron is superb on the race track even though it wasn't designed for that, he loved it on the track more than the roads. I'm waiting for it to go round TopGears track.

My evaluation of the Veyron is based on Gordon Murray's article, which describes why it isn't a very good GT road car, and pure physics / driver's accounts, which describe that, while the Veyron is a good handler, even great, it doesn't handle like a supercar.

Thus, GT road car? Fail. Supercar? Fail. Über fast, great car? Sure.

 

[Dave A]

Gordon Murray was heavilly critical, simply because he doesn't know where to car fits in the grand scheme of things. It is very good on the road, a single bit of negativity does not define how a car is when everything else is praise. As for the handling, I've not heared any bit of negativity regarding that, Gordon Murray loved it, he said it was superb around the track. I quote "On the track the chuckability, the steering and braking really shine". That doesn't like a close but no cigar comment to me, and that fits in with what JC said on ToppGear, what Evo said in their article and what Autocar said in theirs. Imo, the Veyron is a super GT, it's a crossbreed of GT luxury and supercar performance. Murray's main problem with the Veyron a a road car was that if you floor it in third at low revs the turbo lag is all too evident. The size of the car is sometrhing most supercar drivers have to deal with, it's smaller than a Diablo. Murray's comments were good to read and did provide the view of someone looking for a car that fits what he built the F1 for.

 

[iceburns288]

What I didn't like about Murray's review was how he wouldn't shut up about the F1! He also kept saying things like "such and such car copied the McLaren F1's this" and "the Veyron doesn't do this as well as my McLaren F1" and it made me soooo mad. He even said the CGT and Enzo had holes in the front and they couldn't pull off the "McLaren look," well excuse me if any one else is allowed to put cooling holes in the front of their car!