Europe - The Official Thread

And therein lies the rub - it surely matters more that a good majority of Scots do not want independence than the fact that those who do are really passionate about it.
I don't really think either way, but the Catalans have more desire for independence then the Scots do which is what I was trying to say, but unlike the Scots in UK, Spain has suppressed their ability to a legal referendum.
 
It was more Sky's comment that suggested the Catalan voters deserved it.

Agreed, Sky shouldn't be posting things like that online. The Catalan voters have every right to air their views, I personally don't know enough to make an informed opinion on the legality of a vote though. My friend Andrew who was at a polling station (he has no right to vote being South African of Birth) but he was there to form a peaceful human barrier while his wife voted. He stated at the place he was the police were respectful and not too much happened apart from a little light pushing and shoving.

My own comment was more a flippant remark on scenes of street violence against innocent people. Its clear though that news outlets are focusing on the areas of Spain when I'm sure most of the voting was done with very little issue.
 
the Catalans have more desire for independence then the Scots do
While it may be true that there are more Catalans who want independence from Spain than there are Scots who want independence from the UK, I don't accept that pro-independence Catalans 'have more desire for independence' than pro-independence Scots - I know plenty of the latter (and a couple of the former) and there is no lack of desire there.

unlike the Scots in UK, Spain has suppressed their ability to a legal referendum.
This is true, and Spain may well come to regret how they have handled the issue, especially this weekend. That said, though, there are serious questions about how legitimate a vote can be that is not legal. The UK government did not want a Scottish independence referendum but at least recognised the fact that a legal referendum was the best way to address the issue... at least for now. Pro-independence supporters in Scotland have not given up on the idea of Scottish independence (far from it), but because the referendum was legal and legitimate, even they (grudgingly) accepted the result, even if they want a re-run as soon as possible.
 
That said, though, there are serious questions about how legitimate a vote can be that is not legal.

That's where the two parties (obviously) differ. Catalonia finds itself as a mostly-autonomous state that is refused permission from the Spanish government to hold a referendum. What use is an internationally-recognised right to self-determination in a case like this if one party holds an absolute veto on the decision?
 
Seems like some of the Catalonions and those who sympathise with the situation but could not vote are to go on strike.

I’m not100% clued up if strikes have already been happening but it seems it’s now news worthy my friend has put it up on his FB profile.

B88CA3AA-6329-4D40-AE11-6A7C1829FE6E.jpeg


I’m not sure how strikes or work will help force Spain to allow a referendum but I guess they have to try.


Looks like it’s made the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41479048
 
I find these pictures interesting, not only because the uniforms are so similar, but also because they both deal with difficult aspects of democracy and because they were taken just one day apart.

Top: Neo-nazis in Sweden last Saturday, exercising their democratic right to demonstrate.
Below that: Riot police in Spain last Sunday, trying to stop the referendum.


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What use is an internationally-recognised right to self-determination in a case like this if one party holds an absolute veto on the decision?
It would probably be way more correct to say "selectively-recognized-when-convenient-or-useful notion of self-determination". When global leadership wants you to rebel or exercise some "right" or other, we will let you know. Until then, keep your head down, your mouth shut, build your economy and above all pay your taxes.
 
Ah-ha-ha-ha, I knew it! :lol:

"Catalonia held a referendum. Russia won."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...8c702d2d975_story.html?utm_term=.f6182cbe905e

That story is, as you imply, a complete turd.

The data behind it (second half of this otherwise questionable article) is more interesting though. It's clear the article's bias leaves one questioning whether there are plenty of other twitbots at work that aren't Russian (and there surely are) but on the data alone it's hard to claim that there are no Russian twitbots at work too. Of course, it's another step completely to claim a Russian state agenda :)
 
That story is, as you imply, a complete turd.

The data behind it (second half of this otherwise questionable article) is more interesting though. It's clear the article's bias leaves one questioning whether there are plenty of other twitbots at work that aren't Russian (and there surely are) but on the data alone it's hard to claim that there are no Russian twitbots at work too. Of course, it's another step completely to claim a Russian state agenda :)
I know the politicians are looking for excuses and, fortunately for them, there's a man in Moscow they all can blame on all of their failures. But it doesn't look like Russia wins anything from Catalan independence. If Catalonia becomes a sovereign state, establishing relations with it will have a bad effect on relations with Spain. That won't be good.

What Putin said was: "Moscow hopes that Spain overcomes the crisis over the referendum in Catalonia. We worry for Spain, but, of course, it's an internal concern of the Spanish government."
 
Catalunya may declare its independence Monday. The euro, Spanish bonds and shares will be affected.

Europe could end up unzippering into a bunch of squabbling statelets.
 
Catalunya may declare its independence Monday. The euro, Spanish bonds and shares will be affected.
I'm not sure how they can with just 38% of the population voting in favour - a turnout of just 42.5% is surely not enough to carry any meaningful weight. That said, the Spanish government may well have shot themselves in the foot by attempting to disrupt the vote, as pro-independence supporters can argue (at least to some extent anyway) that the turnout should have been much higher but for government interference and police violence.

There is, of course, more to it than that - with many anti-independence voters abstaining or feeling too intimidated to vote - again, this could have been avoided if the Spanish government had arranged for a legal/legitimate vote to take place - and there's no doubt in my mind that the pro-independence vote would be nowhere near the >91% of the vote if the referendum had been arranged differently. As it stands, it is hardly a fair measure of the true level of support for Catalan independence - but now that the mood has soured considerably, the chances of a legal, fair and all-inclusive vote taking place are very low, not least because the Spanish government have arguably missed the opportunity to maximise support for the anti-independence case, and the separatists have scored a massive propaganda victory in light of the violent scenes at polling stations etc. (although some may say that was the goal...) - meaning that the Spanish government are now even less likely to sanction a referendum.

Europe could end up unzippering into a bunch of squabbling statelets.
'End up'? I thought it was there already...
 
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I'm not sure how they can with just 38% of the population voting in favour - a turnout of just 42.5% is surely not enough to carry any meaningful weight. That said, the Spanish government may well have shot themselves in the foot by attempting to disrupt the vote, as pro-independence supporters can argue (at least to some extent anyway) that the turnout should have been much higher but for government interference and police violence.

There is, of course, more to it than that - with many anti-independence voters abstaining or feeling too intimidated to vote - again, this could have been avoided if the Spanish government had arranged for a legal/legitimate vote to take place - and there's no doubt in my mind that the pro-independence vote would be nowhere near the >91% of the vote if the referendum had been arranged differently. As it stands, it is hardly a fair measure of the true level of support for Catalan independence

Absolutely - all we have is an inaccurate representation of who was able to vote, and a secondary inference about how determined they must have been to do so. This invalidation is through the Spanish government's actions, of course.

Still, your 38% figure is enough to carry a UK general election or Brexit.

@Dotini... Of course we're squabbling multistates! Even at a country/county level. Any idea that 'outsiders' might have of the EU being (or trying to be) some large, single social unit is wrong :D
 
@Dotini... Of course we're squabbling multistates! Even at a country/county level. Any idea that 'outsiders' might have of the EU being (or trying to be) some large, single social unit is wrong :D
We like to brag that brilliantly expanding NATO from 12 to 29 or more states has brought all meaningful foreign policy, strategy and border decisions taken in Europe under the leadership and budgetary control of your wise Uncle Sam. But feel free strongly encouraged to continue to squabble over your football and drug/entertainment issues. :D

We need Spain to remain unified in order for it to pay its debts, prop up the euro, and to stamp out any recrudescence of communism, which is axiomatically way worse than kingship and fascism.
 
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That would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that each country's defence spending (on themselves) IS their NATO budget ;)
 
It's like every European country arose from the merger of sub-national fiefdoms to which we all still identify with more strongly than our national capitals which often seek to serve their own interests more than the interests of those of us who live hundreds of miles away.

Or something.
 
Catalunya may declare its independence Monday.

They might as well claim the moon as their territory too, whatever fiction they're writing, reality doesn't follow. Reality is a problem, even for delusional catalan politicians. And all the Spanish state needs to do now is to ignore whatever lunacy comes from the "parlament". Catalunya faces disaster and going from the richest to the poorest region of Spain in record time.

https://www.ft.com/content/daada4cc-a9b4-11e7-93c5-648314d2c72c

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...torn-on-who-to-bank-with-amid-secession-fears

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...red-that-bank-deposits-are-safe-idUSKCN1C90IO

http://fortune.com/2017/10/05/banco-sabadell-caixabank-catalan-independence/


It's like every European country arose from the merger of sub-national fiefdoms to which we all still identify with more strongly than our national capitals which often seek to serve their own interests more than the interests of those of us who live hundreds of miles away.

Or something.

Not Portugal :P
 
They might as well claim the moon as their territory too, whatever fiction they're writing, reality doesn't follow. Reality is a problem, even for delusional catalan politicians. And all the Spanish state needs to do now is to ignore whatever lunacy comes from the "parlament". Catalunya faces disaster and going from the richest to the poorest region of Spain in record time.

https://www.ft.com/content/daada4cc-a9b4-11e7-93c5-648314d2c72c

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...torn-on-who-to-bank-with-amid-secession-fears

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...red-that-bank-deposits-are-safe-idUSKCN1C90IO

http://fortune.com/2017/10/05/banco-sabadell-caixabank-catalan-independence/




Not Portugal :P


According to Junker, Europe goes from Spain to Bulgaria. :lol:

Couldn't resist. ^^
 
Trumpians in Europe's future?

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From left: Hungary’s Viktor Orban; Poland’s Jaroslaw Kaczynski; and the Czech Republic’s Andrej Babis. PHOTO ILLUSTRATION 731; PHOTOGRAPHER: GETTY IMAGES

Some of the great moments of history sneak up on businesspeople. Two years ago, Britain looked to be Europe’s most economically rational country; now its companies seem to be rolling from one economic earthquake to another, with Brexit looking increasingly likely to be followed by the election of a near-Marxist prime minister, Jeremy Corbyn.

Looking back, two things stand out. First, there were some deep underlying “irrational” causes that business ignored, such as the pent-up anger against immigration and globalization. Second, there was a string of short-term political decisions that proved to be miscalculations. For decades, for example, attacking the European Union was a “free hit” for British politicians. If David Cameron had it to do over again, would he really have made the referendum on whether to stay in it a simple majority vote (or indeed called a vote at all)? Does Angela Merkel now regret giving Cameron so few concessions before the Brexit vote? Would the moderate Labour members of Parliament who helped Corbyn get on their party’s leadership ballot in the name of political diversity really do that again?

Now, another rupture may be sneaking up on Europe, driven by a similar mixture of pent-up anger and short-term political maneuvering. This one is between the old West European democratic core of the EU, led by Merkel and increasingly by Emmanuel Macron, who are keen to integrate the euro zone, and the populist authoritarians of Eastern Europe, who dislike Brussels. This time the arguments are ones about political freedom and national sovereignty.

Later this month it looks likely the Czechs will have a new Trumpian prime minister—Andrej Babis, a populist billionaire who wants to send Arab immigrants back home and promises to make the government work as well as his businesses do. To be fair to Babis, he’s a rather more subtle figure than the American president (not to mention a more successful businessman). He is, for instance, careful to emphasize his respect for the judiciary and, on immigration, he welcomes newcomers from Ukraine, pointing out that he himself comes from Slovakia. His main appeal is efficiency (he fumes about his former coalition partners playing with their phones in cabinet meetings).

However, Babis is plainly opposed to increased European integration of the sort that Macron wants and is also against Brussels meddling in Eastern Europe. That means that, whatever the subtleties of Babis’s relatively centrist brand of populism, he is likely to be bundled in with Viktor Orban of Hungary and Jaroslaw Kaczynski of Poland as part of Europe’s authoritarian fringe.

...more:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-see-another-brexit-like-rupture-beyond-spain
 
After a huge anti-independence rally in Barcelona yesterday, France has announced that it will not recognise an independent Catalonia...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...claration-would-not-be-recognised-says-france

To my knowledge this is the first time an EU member state (apart from Spain, obviously) has explicitly stated that they will not recognise Catalonia, thus effectively siding with Spain and providing a major hurdle to continued EU membership for Catalonia.
 
All three territories have special status within the EU, and I suspect foreign policy of all EU member states regarding Gibraltar is designed to not interfere with whatever the UK and Spain (also member states) sort between themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union#Gibraltar

Check the last paragraph regarding Gibraltar. It reveals what was possible as a compromisse. Of course, when Spain entered the EEC the UK was already in, so I will suppose the UK Spain was the one that had to play nice or else the UK would veto their entry.
 
The Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont will make a crucial statement this evening at 6pm local time (5pm UK time) regarding Catalan independence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...possible-catalonian-independence-declaration/

It is widely expected that this statement will either be a declaration of independence from Spain, or something to the effect of calling on the Spanish government to make arrangements for a legal referendum on Catalan independence. Something tells me it won't be as clear cut as that in either case, but the fact remains that it is possible that Catalonia will effectively declare independence from Spain, and that will have massive repercussions. The Spanish government is also preparing to make a statement this evening to address whatever comes out of Barcelona tonight, and, of course, Spanish national police are in Barcelona en masse in case of trouble.

If the Catalan government do press ahead and claim independence immediately then expect fireworks. The Spanish government will (in all likelihood) immediately suspend the Catalan government and possibly start making arrests, since the referendum itself (and those who organised it/sanctioned it) are considered to be illegal by the Spanish government and police. It is more likely that they may claim that independence will be declared in the near future, allowing for time to negotiate with Spain, but that seems unlikely since Spain have already ruled the referendum illegal and will not accept the result.

edit: Puigdemont's statement has been delayed by 1 hour, and will take place at 6pm UK time, 7pm Spanish time.

edit 2: Jesus, well there's 40 minutes of my life I'll never get back - what a complete waste of time that speech was. Tl;dr version: we're going to declare independence once we've checked that it's OK 👍 :rolleyes:
 
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Fixed for reality.

The fix is rather shortsighted.
Like thise millions in the UK going to the EU. You know those millions Farage's campaign promissed to put into the NHS.

A campaign promis he had to come back on litterally the day after the election.


Yes catalunya is 'o the most thriving region, want to see the result when tourism drops? Let's say for instance they become independend? That means border control and no eurozone... How is that going to effect tourism income?

Nationalism is a concept that destroyed europe twice by now...
 
Later this month it looks likely the Czechs will have a new Trumpian prime minister—Andrej Babis, a populist billionaire who wants to send Arab immigrants back home and promises to make the government work as well as his businesses do. To be fair to Babis, he’s a rather more subtle figure than the American president (not to mention a more successful businessman). He is, for instance, careful to emphasize his respect for the judiciary and, on immigration, he welcomes newcomers from Ukraine, pointing out that he himself comes from Slovakia.

Yep, his party will win, at least that's what the latest polls are saying. But his win will not affect the EU, because as a billionaire he knows where money are regardless of pre-election rhetorics. :lol:
What is missing in linked article is that political party "Freedom and direct democracy" is 1% behind Communist party and that's what I call populists, they want to do referendum about the EU, no to islamization, no to illegal immigration, right to have a legal gun which goes directly against the EU policy, etc. ...




Regarding Catalan independence. Spain should allow legal referendum and let them go if they want to, why not.
 
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