Europe - The Official Thread

[SkylineR88]

First off, apologies since I don't have time to read the entire thread.

I am Scottish and I want to be a part of the EU.
In my opinion its the best thing to happen to Europe and being dragged out of it by the english is not acceptable to me.

Here is the Scottish vote:

 

[Spurgy 777]

First off, apologies since I don't have time to read the entire thread.

I am Scottish and I want to be a part of the EU.
In my opinion its the best thing to happen to Europe and being dragged out of it by the english is not acceptable.

Here is the Scottish vote:

Well Scotland voted to remain part of the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU so I don't see why it's unacceptable.

Even if you have another referendum and left the UK, you would never get back into the EU because Spain at least wouldn't allow it, ignoring all the other mess you would have deal with.

 

[Mr Tree]

Well Scotland voted to remain part of the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU so I don't see why it's unacceptable.

Even if you have another referendum and left the UK, you would never get back into the EU because Spain at least wouldn't allow it, ignoring all the other mess you would have deal with.

I agree with your post. But this shows democracy, while the best current system, has it's flaws or greyzones.

It's hardly democratic towards the scottish people to be pulled out of the eu because they belong to britain. Defenitly considering scotland has always been more socialistic compared to england.

(I think there's no correct solution nor answer to this issue, it just is some food for thaught)

 

[SkylineR88]

Spurgy you taken me wrong, I find it personally unacceptable, I do not speak for the entire UK.
Also I believe that spain would allow and we would also get fast-tracked back into the EU because we already abide by all their laws and regulations.
Who is to say that if the Independance referendum had taken place after the brexit vote it may have been a different outcome and also we are getting ready for Indy Ref 2 because of a severe change of circumstances (brexit).

 

[Mr Tree]

Spurgy you taken me wrong, I find it personally unacceptable, I do not speak for the entire UK.
Also I believe that spain would allow and we would also get fast-tracked back into the EU because we already abide by all their laws and regulations.
Who is to say that if the Independance referendum had taken place after the brexit vote it may have been a different outcome and also we are getting ready for Indy Ref 2 because of a severe change of circumstances (brexit).

I think scotland would not become part of the eu if it became independent. Not even if it happens on good terms with the rest of britain. Spain would veto this. If they allow scotland to join they would set a precedent for regions like catalunya.
And spain will defenitly not let that happen. Certainly after we saw to which lengths Rajoy is willing to go to stop this madness.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Well Scotland voted to remain part of the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU so I don't see why it's unacceptable.

And they voted to Remain in the EU, as did Northern Ireland. If no free trade deal is established then we'll see a hard border again, not a good thing.

 

[Touring Mars]

Spain will suspend the autonomy of Catalonian government tomorrow...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...overnment-deadline-pass-article-a8008241.html

Catalonia's president Carles Puigdemont gave a perplexing speech last week where he appeared to declare independence only to immediately 'suspend' it for an indefinite period in order to allow time for negotiations.

The Spanish government asked Puigdemont to clarify if he had actually declared independence, and gave him until earlier this week to respond, but that deadline passed without any clarification. Spain extended the deadline until 10am this morning, but so far no clarification has been forthcoming. As a result, Spain is now set to trigger 'Article 155' which will suspend the autonomy of the Catalonian government and effectively see the return of direct rule over the region from Madrid. Conversely, the Catalonian government are likely to respond by 'unsuspending' their declaration of independence and hold a vote to 'officially' declare independence in a move that will undoubtedly raise the stakes with Spain.

 

[Mr Tree]

Am I the only one following this spain debacle as if it was a soap?

Also if I understood this correctly catalunya wants a seperate state because they are the economic powerhouse of spain?

If so don't they realise getting independence would make sure they're no longer that? As they would not have free acces to our markets. Also it's a tourism region, will it stay as popular when not using the euro? Ow yeah and lot's of bussinnesses that leave because that restriction to acces of the european market. So if beeing the thriving economic of spain is the reason they want independence, isn't independce going to make sure they lose all what made them feel better then the rest if spain?

Meh I'm probably just a college libtard the man in the street understands this better then I do

 

[Liquid]

Also if I understood this correctly catalunya wants a seperate state because they are the economic powerhouse of spain?

They want independence because they consider themselves as being different from "the Spanish" and other regions in Spain in language, culture and history.

The fact that they influence a large amount of the Spanish economy and GDP gives strength to their movement but isn't the core reason for it.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Am I the only one following this spain debacle as if it was a soap?

Nope, I am too, this issue even took "Brexit" to the backseat of my interest and curiosity with foreign affairs. Both are head-shaking matters, but Brexit remains firmly within the economic realm, while the Catalan "procés" is very likely to escalate to a much more serious problem, if discussions stop within the confines of the established institutions and are transferred to the populace.

I've following the news from the "el Pais" (Madrid, but pro socialist, so it is both anti independence and anti Rajoy) and the "La Vanguardia" (Barcelona and all for autonomy, but not aligned with the ones seeking catalan independence now).

I think Rajoy will assume direct rule but in a step-by-step manner (money, law and order) and will leave the institutions void of any particular power, but untouched. And he will call elections, there's a general feeling that the Independentistas went too far and lost popular support, also that reality sunk in many hot headed people that thought independence was a troube free one way street. All major corporations left Catalunya in a move that is still only a formality but if Independence is declared will become very real.

I just hope the more radicals - and there are many - among the indep camp do not turn to violence in a desperate attempt to create a chaos that would, in their view, justify some sort of intervention from the outside. Good luck with that, Spain is a democracy, with laws, courts, elected parliament and accountable governemnt, a EU member, nobody will intervene like if this was a desintegrating Yougoslavia.

 

[Mr Tree]

They want independence because they consider themselves as being different from "the Spanish" and other regions in Spain in language, culture and history.

The fact that they influence a large amount of the Spanish economy and GDP gives strength to their movement but isn't the core reason for it.

As a flemish guy. The arguments u use are the same our seperatists use. BUT the people who would vote for independence would do so because the flemish side is the economic engine of belgium at the moment.
Also we're not stopped of expressing our culture or language, this while those seperatists claim we are...

So if you're from spain or catalunya how much of the arguments you called in are the actual reason people would vote leave. And how awefull are the catalunyans oppressed what new freedoms would they aquire? Because there is a diffrence between beeing diffrent and having to seperate due to beeing diffrent...

Ow and just as a clarification. Rajoy's deployment of policeforce was an assenine idea... He actually shot himself in the foot. And every policeofficer who parttook in the violonce should be brought before a court...

Nope, I am too, this issue even took "Brexit" to the backseat of my interest and curiosity with foreign affairs. Both are head-shaking matters, but Brexit remains firmly within the economic realm, while the Catalan "procés" is very likely to escalate to a much more serious problem, if discussions stop within the confines of the established institutions and are transferred to the populace.

I've following the news from the "el Pais" (Madrid, but pro socialist, so it is both anti independence and anti Rajoy) and the "La Vanguardia" (Barcelona and all for autonomy, but not aligned with the ones seeking catalan independence now).

I think Rajoy will assume direct rule but in a step-by-step manner (money, law and order) and will leave the institutions void of any particular power, but untouched. And he will call elections, there's a general feeling that the Independentistas went too far and lost popular support, also that reality sunk in many hot headed people that thought independence was a troube free one way street. All major corporations left Catalunya in a move that is still only a formality but if Independence is declared will become very real.

I just hope the more radicals - and there are many - among the indep camp do not turn to violence in a desperate attempt to create a chaos that would, in their view, justify some sort of intervention from the outside. Good luck with that, Spain is a democracy, with laws, courts, elected parliament and accountable governemnt, a EU member, nobody will intervene like if this was a desintegrating Yougoslavia.

For stability on the world stage of politics I hope the radicals don't try to start a civil war...
On the other hand just a part of me wants to see those people try and fail miserably... Yeah start getting physical as catalunya with no army against probably all european armies if nessecary...

 

[mustafur]

Well they had an opinion poll and the police acted violently in response soo....

 

[Mr Tree]

Well they had an opinion poll and the police acted violently in response soo....

Yes the actions of the police are repulsive...

But I can't seem to get what you want to imply with your statement. So what are you implying with the statement?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yeah start getting physical as catalunya with no army against probably all european armies if nessecary...

Catalunya has an army and a police force. It's made of all the members of the Spanish army or police who are Catalonian.

 

[Hun200kmh]

@TenEightyOne you are right about the police, the "Mossos d'Esquadra" answer before the regional government. But not so about the army, there are no Catalonian regiments. There's only one army and that's the Spanish one. And they are under the direct rule of the Spanish Government and, ultimately, their commander in chief, the Spanish King.

 

[Mr Tree]

Catalunya has an army and a police force. It's made of all the members of the Spanish army or police who are Catalonian.

You have catalunyan policeforce. Think a military is a beter way to actually occupy a region...

You don't have a catunyan army. You have soldier who are catalunyan.

Now do the thoughtprocess of your hypotetical...
Imagine the police putting up resistance against the military. I'd take the catalunyan soldiers as the officers (or at least those fit) as they have military experience. This wouod mean you don't have a policeforce during said civil war. Now that isn't even the biggedt issue... You'd have few thousand soldiers. Against all the rest of europe.
You think the future of catalunya is so bright?

Regions like the flemish and catalunya don't have real reasons to leave. And holding a referandum in only catalunya considering the faith of all of spain isn't a democratic vote... It's a minority forcing their will on the majority while acting as if they have a majority...

 

[TenEightyOne]

@TenEightyOne you are right about the police, the "Mossos d'Esquadra" answer before the regional government. But not so about the army, there are no Catalonian regiments. There's only one army and that's the Spanish one. And they are under the direct rule of the Spanish Government and, ultimately, their commander in chief, the Spanish King.

What I was leaning towards was that in factional disputes elsewhere in the world we've seen soldiers from a particular region turn against the army that they're a part of. I could have explained it more betterly

 

[Touring Mars]

What I can't understand (among other things) is why pro-independence Catalans (just like their Scottish counterparts) are so avidly in favour of EU membership. If anything, it is even harder to understand in the case of Catalonia - Spain has struggled in recent years but Catalonia has done relatively well... but they are (perhaps understandably) tired of the politics of austerity that they feel are being imposed on them by continuing membership of Spain (similar to the grievance of pro-independence Scots who believe that Westminster-led austerity measures are unacceptable). The difference being, however, that Spain's austerity measures are (at least to some extent anyway) driven by Spain's membership of the Eurozone. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that a region wishes to declare independence largely on the basis that they have had enough of being controlled by a remote, centralised power, only to immediately sign up to an even more remote centralised power - especially one whose aims and methods seem diametrically opposed to what pro-independence Catalans (and Scots) want.

 

[Hun200kmh]

especially one whose aims and methods seem diametrically opposed to what pro-independence Catalans (and Scots) want.

Why do you say this? I understand that in the UK anything EU is tainted with the "unelected eurocrats" logo, but I really don't understand it. I can understand the most powerful countries within Europe looking at the sharing of power the EU forces them to as a nuisance. It's the "Taking back control" thing. But, for smaller nations and weaker economies, that same sharing of power within the EU institutions gives them a voice (and political power or leverage) they wouldn't have otherwise. I for one think the EU, even with all its - inevitable - issues and problems, is made of democrats and has democracy in its core principles.

And then, thinking about power and relevance of a small country, consider this:
Scenario A: Scotland outside of the UK and not part of the EU.
Scenario B: Scotland outside of the UK and a member state of the EU

Forget the fact that you think both options are horrible. Given just one of those two, what would be better for Scotland? What would give Scotland more visibility in the world's stage or at least within the concert of european nations?

 

[Touring Mars]

Why do you say this? I understand that in the UK anything EU is tainted with the "unelected eurocrats" logo, but I really don't understand it. I can understand the most powerful countries within Europe looking at the sharing of power the EU forces them to as a nuisance. It's the "Taking back control" thing. But, for smaller nations and weaker economies, that same sharing of power within the EU institutions gives them a voice (and political power or leverage) they wouldn't have otherwise. I for one think the EU, even with all its - inevitable - issues and problems, is made of democrats and has democracy in its core principles.

And then, thinking about power and relevance of a small country, consider this:
Scenario A: Scotland outside of the UK and not part of the EU.
Scenario B: Scotland outside of the UK and a member state of the EU

Forget the fact that you think both options are horrible. Given just one of those two, what would be better for Scotland? What would give Scotland more visibility in the world's stage or at least within the concert of european nations?

In a word: Greece.

I agree that the European project is essentially made of democrats and has democracy at its core - but, as Greece has shown all too clearly, EU democracy can and clearly does trump national democracy if and when it has to... and that raises serious questions. You know there's something not quite right when the German finance minister has more say over your nation's financial policy than yours does.

On a less negative note, EU membership does indeed have many advantages and clearly it does benefit/suit some countries more than others - as for Scotland, it is hard to say that we'll be any better off under whatever conditions, but it is highly debatable as to whether an independent Scotland would be advised to sign up to the Euro and hence sign over some key powers to the EU and, ultimately, set the scene for more discontent when it all starts to go horribly wrong. Indeed, there are many Euro-skeptic Scottish nationalists who agree - and even the SNP's top brass are reluctant to declare that an independent Scotland would even try to join the EU, let alone sign up for the whole package including the Euro.

 

[Mr Tree]

In a word: Greece.

I agree that the European project is essentially made of democrats and has democracy at its core - but, as Greece has shown all too clearly, EU democracy can and clearly does trump national democracy if and when it has to... and that raises serious questions. You know there's something not quite right when the German finance minister has more say over your nation's financial policy than yours does.

On a less negative note, EU membership does indeed have many advantages and clearly it does benefit/suit some countries more than others - as for Scotland, it is hard to say that we'll be any better off under whatever conditions, but it is highly debatable as to whether an independent Scotland would be advised to sign up to the Euro and hence sign over some key powers to the EU and, ultimately, set the scene for more discontent when it all starts to go horribly wrong. Indeed, there are many Euro-skeptic Scottish nationalists who agree - and even the SNP's top brass are reluctant to declare that an independent Scotland would even try to join the EU, let alone sign up for the whole package including the Euro.

I might be naive in this but after greece some rightwing parties had that craving for taking back control.
But I believe there must be some left-wing parties willing to change the osterity 'rules' of the eu.
I believe we can make the eu a better eu. And while this is not to realistic to.ever happen the possible solution could be counterintuitive.
I believe we should come together more, this way we as the population get more say in the electionprocess of the eu. This woyld in turn make it so the eu doesn't feel like some offshore entity pushing us.around.

And this would only be possible if left-wing countries stay in/join the eu.


Disclaimer:
No I do not believe in osterity.

 

[Biggles]

In a word: Greece.

I agree that the European project is essentially made of democrats and has democracy at its core - but, as Greece has shown all too clearly, EU democracy can and clearly does trump national democracy if and when it has to... and that raises serious questions. You know there's something not quite right when the German finance minister has more say over your nation's financial policy than yours does.

On a less negative note, EU membership does indeed have many advantages and clearly it does benefit/suit some countries more than others - as for Scotland, it is hard to say that we'll be any better off under whatever conditions, but it is highly debatable as to whether an independent Scotland would be advised to sign up to the Euro and hence sign over some key powers to the EU and, ultimately, set the scene for more discontent when it all starts to go horribly wrong. Indeed, there are many Euro-skeptic Scottish nationalists who agree - and even the SNP's top brass are reluctant to declare that an independent Scotland would even try to join the EU, let alone sign up for the whole package including the Euro.

Canada has had its own version of this mess - the Quebec separatist movement. There are a lot of similarities (& some differences) between the situation with the Catalans & Quebecers. Following the election of a separatist provincial government in Quebec in 1976 there was an exodus of large corporations from Quebec, which was a catalyst for the emergence of Toronto as the dominant financial, commercial, population & political centre in Canada & the relative decline of Montreal.

A large part of the desire for independence in Quebec was based on historical grievances on the part of Quebecers against English Canada. I suspect a similar case exists in Catalonia, based especially on experiences during the Spanish Civil War. In other words, emotional rather than entirely rational motives are a significant driving factor.

After the 1995 Quebec referendum, in which separation was (very narrowly) defeated, the separatist leader blamed "big money" (ie, corporations with a rational business motivation to retain unity) & the "ethnic vote" (more recent immigrants to Quebec who had no reason to want to live in a smaller, highly francophone nation).

As far as I can tell, the Scots' historical antipathy towards the English is not what it used to be, but the Scots are also aware of the reality that they are no longer the impoverished cousins of the English & may feel they are better off not hitching their wagon to a rudderless & isolated England.

All politics around the world co-exist on multiple levels - local, regional, national & international. The idea that "national identity" should be the most important of these levels seems really questionable to me.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Two of Italy's richest regions have voted for independence in a non-binding referendum. With national elections only a few months away they're unlikely to see any meaningful regional devolution acts passed through their parliament... but it sends a clear signal to the main parties about what they might do to gain favour in those areas.

All politics around the world co-exist on multiple levels - local, regional, national & international. The idea that "national identity" should be the most important of these levels seems really questionable to me.

This is what I question about myself - do I feel English, British, UK-ish (no!) or European? To be honest I feel more European than anything, but I'm into languages and food so it's a rich nationality to be

 

[Sprite]

I've never really felt British since I got old enough to look into my own lineage and found out on my mums side we can trace back to the Netherlands and my dads side Italian. Since then I consider myself as an earthling and feel at peace with all denominations of our great marble in the deep.

Power, land & borders etc. cause issues just as much as religion and I don't fall into any religious group either.

If someone wants to come from a far land and set themselves up to earn a living and have a new and happy life who am I to say no?

 

[Dennisch]

They're expecting that Catalonia is going to declare their independence today.

I need popcorn.

 

[Touring Mars]

Catalonia has declared independence from Spain.

A sad day for Spain and it could well be the start of a very difficult period for the European Union.

The Catalan government have once again called on the EU to intervene when the EU have already - and repeatedly - sided with Spain. I can't see this ending well for anyone.

 

[Famine]

Catalonia has declared independence from Spain.

A sad day for Spain and it could well be the start of a very difficult period for the European Union.

The Catalan government have once again called on the EU to intervene when the EU have already - and repeatedly - sided with Spain. I can't see this ending well for anyone.

 

[Robin]

And all this on the day that Simon Cowell fell down the stairs...

Never forget.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Translation: According to Norwegian TV, if Catalunya becomes independent we invade Portugal

 

[Jimlaad43]

Spain have responded by saying they're imposing direct rule on Catalonia. Sounds like they did that a few hours too late.

The UK have Said they won't recognise Catalonia as an independent nation.