Europe - The Official Thread

The different countries in the EU are culturally to different to have the system you want. You would have to replace the different cultures in EU with one culture and I don't like that idea.

I don't really agree, I'm British and my fiance is Italian, you'd struggle to get further apart geographically. Yet culturally we are very similar, as I imagine the vast majority of Europe is.
Further to that, many countries in Europe home people from all over the world from far more diverse cultures that dominate in the EU states and they are not only able to be governed by the respective governments but also able to thrive.

The mixing of many different cultures, has in my opinion made the UK a better, stronger and tastier nation!
 
I think that we (the Netherlands) are different enough from Belgium to not want to share a government.

Can't really prove you wrong on something that you feel, but I disagree a lot with having a centralized EU government. The different countries in the EU are culturally to different to have the system you want. You would have to replace the different cultures in EU with one culture and I don't like that idea.

Not born here but living in the Netherlands. My father is Dutch (non European on my mothers side)

I think this entire conversation deals in emotions :P

But I am wondering now, what would make my culture all to diffrent from yours in the netherlands? I love the dutch :P I don't like all your policies but I don't like my countries policies.

Maybe you're right and give a nice reason, but I think we as european aren't so diffrent. I think we have some very blurry lines that are being abused by politicians and represented as a great devide. But again I'm curious to what you seem to find some big diffrences.
 
I don't believe that it is a question of whether the various different cultures in Europe can co-exist harmoniously - they obviously can, as we share enough common values to allow EU members to co-exist just as easily as say the Scottish and English can. For me, the question is more about whether different countries can co-exist politically and economically as well, and whether a region such as Europe can survive with a 'one-size-fits-all' policy on everything. The Euro is the first great experiment to test the hypothesis that one can shackle the Greek economy to the German economy, Hungarian (or Italian) immigration policy to Dutch immigration policy etc. Ultimately, they all need to sing from the same hymn sheet, and that is proving to be a lot easier said than done.

One of the main issues with the Eurozone project is the concept of irreversibility - the Euro was designed to be irreversible, a monetary union that now requires further banking and ever-closer political union for it to work... and because it is supposed to be irreversible, that means anyone who signed up to the Euro has also committed themselves - intentionally or otherwise - to ever-closer political union too. 'Irreversible' is a word that doesn't chime well with the very concept of democracy though, since if something is irreversible (like the Euro is supposed to be), then by definition it cannot be influenced by public vote. That in itself might workout OK if it were working properly, but it clearly isn't - and therein lies a problem when the proposed solutions to make it work necessarily involve removing decision making powers from individual members.
 
Can't really prove you wrong on something that you feel, but I disagree a lot with having a centralized EU government. The different countries in the EU are culturally to different to have the system you want. You would have to replace the different cultures in EU with one culture and I don't like that idea.

I don't really agree, I'm British and my fiance is Italian, you'd struggle to get further apart geographically. Yet culturally we are very similar, as I imagine the vast majority of Europe is.
Further to that, many countries in Europe home people from all over the world from far more diverse cultures that dominate in the EU states and they are not only able to be governed by the respective governments but also able to thrive.

I don't think we should get government and culture too mixed up. I'm British, and my girlfriend is Romanian, we are quite different - it is inevitable. She was born into a country about to see an anti-communist revolution, and grew up in it's steep transition thereafter. But, as people, and as cultures I absolutely think it's still possible for to exist together under the same umbrella - however the economics of it are an entirely separate thing. When it comes to centralised government, basically IMHO we can overcome the cultural differences far easier than we could overcome the economic differences... and that's maybe part of why the EU had problems.

edit: tree'd more intelligently by TM
 
I don't believe that it is a question of whether the various different cultures in Europe can co-exist harmoniously - they obviously can, as we share enough common values to allow EU members to co-exist just as easily as say the Scottish and English can. For me, the question is more about whether different countries can co-exist politically and economically as well, and whether a region such as Europe can survive with a 'one-size-fits-all' policy on everything. The Euro is the first great experiment to test the hypothesis that one can shackle the Greek economy to the German economy, Hungarian (or Italian) immigration policy to Dutch immigration policy etc. Ultimately, they all need to sing from the same hymn sheet, and that is proving to be a lot easier said than done.

One of the main issues with the Eurozone project is the concept of irreversibility - the Euro was designed to be irreversible, a monetary union that now requires further banking and ever-closer political union for it to work... and because it is supposed to be irreversible, that means anyone who signed up to the Euro has also committed themselves - intentionally or otherwise - to ever-closer political union too. 'Irreversible' is a word that doesn't chime well with the very concept of democracy though, since if something is irreversible (like the Euro is supposed to be), then by definition it cannot be influenced by public vote. That in itself might workout OK if it were working properly, but it clearly isn't - and therein lies a problem when the proposed solutions to make it work necessarily involve removing decision making powers from individual members.

Lot's of things are 'irreversable'. I just find it a bit odd the euro doesn't work because we have seperated economies. And the typical idea currently is we need to have more say in our economy because we can't help ourselves bounded by eu regulations.

If not beeing in an integrated economy is why the euro isn't working would the better solution be to have one single economy?

Honnest question how do the states do this?
 
Governments can refuse certain EU policies that are not in the best interest of their people and have a say in EU institutions. And of course there is peoples right to self-determination.

And where is my right to self determination as a village. What if suddenly I refuse to accept the government as I find our village has the right to self determination?
 
And where is my right to self determination as a village. What if suddenly I refuse to accept the government as I find our village has the right to self determination?
This is the flipside of the 'centralisation' argument - where does separatism end? As a spokesman for the good people (person) of Chrisville, I'd quite like to know.

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Meanwhile, there is an EU summit happening this week where they will attempt to solve the current stand-off on migration, with Italy spearheading calls to change the current EU rules that obliges member states to take responsibility for any migrants who land in their country first, putting disproportionate strain on Mediterranean states, particularly Italy and Greece. Italy are (IMO rightly) pushing for the EU as a whole to accept a share of all migrants who land in Europe, but several countries (particularly Hungary) will not agree to that. Merkel has apparently called for a new agreement that doesn't require unanimity such that countries who are willing to take a share of migrants can agree to do so while those who won't don't have to, but presumably at a cost e.g. countries that agree to take in migrants will have access to funds that are not available to those who don't.

However it remains a thorny issue, as the entire concept of the Schengen zone that allows for the free movement of people across mainland Europe would be at risk if countries were allowed to opt in or out of any settlement on migrants.

How ironic would it be if the entire free movement principle were to collapse within the EU (or even part of it) before Brexit is actioned, given that this was the #1 reason why people voted to Leave...?
 
This is the flipside of the 'centralisation' argument - where does separatism end? As a spokesman for the good people (person) of Chrisville, I'd quite like to know.

-

Meanwhile, there is an EU summit happening this week where they will attempt to solve the current stand-off on migration, with Italy spearheading calls to change the current EU rules that obliges member states to take responsibility for any migrants who land in their country first, putting disproportionate strain on Mediterranean states, particularly Italy and Greece. Italy are (IMO rightly) pushing for the EU as a whole to accept a share of all migrants who land in Europe, but several countries (particularly Hungary) will not agree to that. Merkel has apparently called for a new agreement that doesn't require unanimity such that countries who are willing to take a share of migrants can agree to do so while those who won't don't have to, but presumably at a cost e.g. countries that agree to take in migrants will have access to funds that are not available to those who don't.

However it remains a thorny issue, as the entire concept of the Schengen zone that allows for the free movement of people across mainland Europe would be at risk if countries were allowed to opt in or out of any settlement on migrants.

How ironic would it be if the entire free movement principle were to collapse within the EU (or even part of it) before Brexit is actioned, given that this was the #1 reason why people voted to Leave...?

Isn't it a pretty easy fix?
Can't the EU can give financial incentives to those nations who take on more refugees than others, they can also help pay for more coastal defences and rescue operations?
If the Italian (for example) government is able to allocate those funds how they choose then they can put that money into what ever programs they like which makes both sides happy.
 
Isn't it a pretty easy fix?
Can't the EU can give financial incentives to those nations who take on more refugees than others, they can also help pay for more coastal defences and rescue operations?
If the Italian (for example) government is able to allocate those funds how they choose then they can put that money into what ever programs they like which makes both sides happy.
I'm guessing that if you and I can both come up with the same 'simple' fix off the tops of our heads after giving it 2 minutes of thought, I'd imagine that this idea has at least been suggested already - so it begs the question why it is not already happening (may be it is for all I know) or why it's not a flyer in Brussels. Dare I say it, however, but this kind of common sense approach of member states opting in or out of certain initiatives sounds just a bit 'a la carte' to me...
 
I'm guessing that if you and I can both come up with the same 'simple' fix off the tops of our heads after giving it 2 minutes of thought, I'd imagine that this idea has at least been suggested already - so it begs the question why it is not already happening (may be it is for all I know) or why it's not a flyer in Brussels. Dare I say it, however, but this kind of common sense approach of member states opting in or out of certain initiatives sounds just a bit 'a la carte' to me...

To be fair, when it comes to Italy anyway... the idea of politically agreeing to taking on more refugees isn't a strong move, especially given how they are taking pages from the Nazi book on how to stir up hatred
 
Isn't it a pretty easy fix?
Can't the EU can give financial incentives to those nations who take on more refugees than others, they can also help pay for more coastal defences and rescue operations?
If the Italian (for example) government is able to allocate those funds how they choose then they can put that money into what ever programs they like which makes both sides happy.

I'm guessing that if you and I can both come up with the same 'simple' fix off the tops of our heads after giving it 2 minutes of thought, I'd imagine that this idea has at least been suggested already - so it begs the question why it is not already happening (may be it is for all I know) or why it's not a flyer in Brussels. Dare I say it, however, but this kind of common sense approach of member states opting in or out of certain initiatives sounds just a bit 'a la carte' to me...

This is where those who are content with the idea of the EU but not the actual EU itself pipe up; I'm sure lots of people who are so-called "pro Europe" who don't think the EU is a perfect organisation.

I'd put myself in that category. I've said in some threads in the past that economic co-operation is grand but economic assimilation is dangerous and now we're seeing why; especially when the economies of both Greece and Italy were knowingly vastly overestimated by those bureaucrats in Brussel.
 
This is where those who are content with the idea of the EU but not the actual EU itself pipe up; I'm sure lots of people who are so-called "pro Europe" who don't think the EU is a perfect organisation.

I'd put myself in that category. I've said in some threads in the past that economic co-operation is grand but economic assimilation is dangerous and now we're seeing why; especially when the economies of both Greece and Italy were knowingly vastly overestimated by those bureaucrats in Brussel.

I think the biggest problem with Europe isn't financial, it's political.
Yes there are great imbalances in wealth within the Eurozone and the whole of the EU. But those can be managed, the growth of all nations is tied/linked to the growth/success of the others.
 
Isn't it a pretty easy fix?
Can't the EU can give financial incentives to those nations who take on more refugees than others, they can also help pay for more coastal defences and rescue operations?
If the Italian (for example) government is able to allocate those funds how they choose then they can put that money into what ever programs they like which makes both sides happy.

The easy fix to all the EUs problems is to stop calling any of the countries anything but Germany and have them all play by the same rulebook. But I suspect some countries might object to that, what with them having fought pretty hard to avoid that very thing not so many decades ago.
 
The easy fix to all the EUs problems is to stop calling any of the countries anything but Germany and have them all play by the same rulebook. But I suspect some countries might object to that, what with them having fought pretty hard to avoid that very thing not so many decades ago.

:lol:

You forget, when we leave the tyrannical EU, we will once again become the worlds foremost superpower and the whole of Europe will be speaking English!

/heavy sarcasm
 
And where is my right to self determination as a village. What if suddenly I refuse to accept the government as I find our village has the right to self determination?

I'm sure that there are some legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination. And we were talking about self-determination of the nations which is easy concept.
 
I'm sure that there are some legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination. And we were talking about self-determination of the nations which is easy concept.

That kind of feels like an argument from authority.
Off course you're right legally speaking but when you think about it it's this way just because we say so. Why should self determination of a country only for a specific country be better then self determination of a country called the EU?

And if it's because you like decentralised governments why draw the line where we draw it now (at countries, and I know this is a generalisation)? And I'm not satisfied with the because legal arguments, I'm wondering what your opinion is and why?
So why do you believe villages shouldn't get the oppertunity to selfdetermination and countries should or where would you draw the line?

And I'd like to ask an extra question, what does the eu currently deceide for your country you'd rather have selfdetermination over. And as a follow up why would it be better decentralised then as a 'federal' eu policy.
 
That kind of feels like an argument from authority.
Why should self determination of a country only for a specific country be better then self determination of a country called the EU?

a country don't have a right to self-determination, but people of the same ethnicity have. Maybe you use "self-determination" wrongly?

... what does the eu currently deceide for your country ...

http://www.dw.com/en/eu-sues-czech-republic-hungary-and-poland-over-low-refugee-intake/a-41691870
 
a country don't have a right to self-determination, but people of the same ethnicity have. Maybe you use "self-determination" wrongly?

I think you're translating it wrongly. Self-identified countries have gone on to be recognised in the past.
 
a country don't have a right to self-determination, but people of the same ethnicity have. Maybe you use "self-determination" wrongly?




http://www.dw.com/en/eu-sues-czech-republic-hungary-and-poland-over-low-refugee-intake/a-41691870

On your first point etnicity is a very fluent concept nowadays. I live on the border of the netherlands and rather close to germany. We have diffrences but they're no bigger or smaller then between the diffrent provinces in belgium (which have almost no selfdetermination) so how do we draw a border in a grey zone? Why do we deceide that's the line?

On your link ok I geussed as much as a reply of a policy but why would it be better decentralised and not as a 'federal' eu. That was my main question. Also your country is upset over being forced to uphold human rights. According to the article you've took in 12 refugees. A single town can handle 12 refugees. You're obligated to take in 800 together with poland and hungary. That's 200-300 a country, what seems to be the issue? Is 800 devided over 3 countries really that big of an issue and if so why?

Also I'm more interested in the why you believe things.rather then just a reply with what your opinion is.
 
Self-identified countries have gone on to be recognised in the past.

yeah, they were recognized because people claimed their right to self-determination and a country was created. So it's people who have that right and sovereign country is sovereign, so what is "self determination of a country called the EU" as @Mr Tree said? btw. the EU is not a country.

On your first point etnicity is a very fluent concept nowadays. I live on the border of the netherlands and rather close to germany. We have diffrences but they're no bigger or smaller then between the diffrent provinces in belgium (which have almost no selfdetermination) so how do we draw a border in a grey zone? Why do we deceide that's the line?

That's a question for international lawyers/politicians/historian, not sure why you want me to answer it.


Also your country is upset over being forced to uphold human rights.

No. We object against immigration qoutas as tool for solving migration into the EU. We are sovereign country and have legal process for taking in migrants which will not be replaced by ridiculous EU policy.
 
yeah, they were recognized because people claimed their right to self-determination and a country was created. So it's people who have that right and sovereign country is sovereign, so what is "self determination of a country called the EU" as @Mr Tree said? btw. the EU is not a country.

The point you actually made was

a country don't have a right to self-determination, but people of the same ethnicity have. Maybe you use "self-determination" wrongly?

You'll note that self-recognised areas which became countries weren't countries beforehand. I'd agree that it's hard to imagine the EU as a country but that wasn't the point you made.
 
No. We object against immigration qoutas as tool for solving migration into the EU. We are sovereign country and have legal process for taking in migrants which will not be replaced by ridiculous EU policy.
Refugees are not migrants, don't conflate the two.
 
Refugees are not migrants, don't conflate the two.
CNN disagrees with you.
The United Nations notes that both groups [migrants and refugees] are present in Europe and at its shores. It's safe to call all of them migrants because each is migrating, but many of them -- especially those fleeing Afghanistan, Eritrea, Syria and Iraq -- are also refugees.
 
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